Damaged Wiseco Pistons (Not Pretty)

[gabytech]

Theres a difference between a garage weekend mechanic an a ASE certified tech. In this post we can see the difference.

 

[Sebba]

Theres a difference between a garage weekend mechanic an a ASE certified tech. In this post we can see the difference.

I've met plenty of moronic ASE certified people. I actually worked with a bunch.

 

[Fejery4491]

I've met plenty of moronic ASE certified people. I actually worked with a bunch.

+2 All it means is you can take a test.

 

[bastarddsm]

Theres a difference between a garage weekend mechanic an a ASE certified tech. In this post we can see the difference.

I've met plenty of moronic ASE certified people. I actually worked with a bunch.

+2 All it means is you can take a test.

Lol, They have a sae progam at my school, and the kids in the program are retarded. Sure they might be able to change out some parts when they are done, but they certainly will not be mechanics. None of them would have any idea on how to machine an engine.

Furthermore, they best engine builders I know, have no education outside of high school.

I know you'll all think I'm wrong, but to me those cracks look like they are caused by excessive clearance. Thats exactly how a 2 stroke dirtbike piston starts to break when they get loose, and lose a skirt.

 

[DSMReviver]

From looking at the pics, I am gonna have to go with improper clearances. It could be improper ptw clearences, improper clearences between piston pins. I can't blame the guy(op) because it's not his fault. He made it clear he did not build the motor but he simply purchased the car. I can't blame wiseco either because the evidence is there. Every piston had major scuffing on the skirts and the piston did see a very high temperatures (look at the pin area). I have seen a use wiseco piston taken out of a motor with 20k on them and still have some coatings left from the skirts. Every single one of these piston, the coatings had been eaten. Scuffings is all over the place even on non broken pistons.

I believe Jam nail the head on this one. The biggest mistake we "garage weekend mechanics" make is to trust brand new parts clearences. We assume clearences is dead on from manufacture. We then slap that brand new parts(withought checking the clearences) and expect it to take a beating and call it a day. Jam can tell you all more about this (I'm sure he seen it all). You would not believe how far off spec these new parts are off clearences. I'm talking about from pistons, rods, etc from different manufacture with clearence issues from manufacture.

There is so much to check for that we "garage weekend mechanic" cannot take all accountable. I do not advise people to build a motor if they cannot take every clearence accountable and don't have the tools or knowledge to do so.

And one more thing..., before we start "the not to buy a wiseco piston trend" please I strongly advise you do more research.

 

[gabytech]

True that about ASE certification, its not the same been in a classroom, or taking a test and knowing what you doing at the field. Here in Puerto Rico you need to actually go to college or a technical school and get at degree even before you are eligable to take the local certification, plus to work at a shop you need to be certified by the board of automotive mechanics and technicians, which is the equal of ASE in the states, plus be certified by the state department. Not like the states that the shop is the one that need certification and not the mechanic. Im certified by the CMTPR, Puerto Rico State Department, ASE, and Mercedes Benz USA. A lot of these backyard mechanics take a technical course in high school and learn to change a spark plug, probably with out even really undertsanding how an engine works and all of the sudden they think they can bolt ebay parts, rebuild their engine and have 500hp in their DSM and run low 10s, . It doesnt work like that. Theres a huge difference between a auto mechanic and an auto technician, mechanics change oil and brakes, and technicians diagnose a problem. thats why most gearheads here blame Wiseco for their piston damage and engine failure. Backyard mechanics...

 

[TSIturbo91]

I've met plenty of moronic ASE certified people. I actually worked with a bunch.

+1 on that. I've seen many guys with the badge on the uniform but no other indications they know more than an average mechanic. Those guys were fellow employees at the shop I worked in. ASE doesn't stand for perfect knowledge of all thing automotive related.

 

[gabytech]

Im not hating for guys having enthusiasm on learning and greasing their hands, but before you point your fingers into part failure, be sure you know what you talking about especially if you going to claim failure to the manufacturer...

 

[dsmtwins2g]

Im not hating for guys having enthusiasm on learning and greasing their hands, but before you point your fingers into part failure, be sure you know what you talking about especially if you going to claim failure to the manufacturer...

I don't see any post claiming manufacturer fault?seems to me he's trying to figure out what went wrong.

 

[gnen1st]

Great post guys its real informative. You guys really broke it down on the explanation. Hopefull this doesn't happen to anyone else..but i doubt that

 

[gabytech]

But a few post recommend wiseco piston failure, which sounds more like wiseco pistons are weak and tend to fail. When in reality the pistons indicate poor engine buildup. Its not that the Wiseco pistons fail cause they weak, they failed due to improper piston installation. Ive build like 10 engines with wiseco pistons, and never have a customers engine failed. I was taught to check and double check all specs and clearance when rebuilding and engine and not answering the phone or taking a 15minute cigarette break, thats when most screw ups happen. When Im rebuilding an engine I disconnect myself from any distraction atleats until the bottom end is complete.

 

[jimbob_843]

Coating was taking the bullet for the pistons. Check the wrist pin clearance. Maybe you had some friction in the wrist pin resulting in extra force of the piston into the wall, causing the stress cracks. And the only thing preventing the scuff marks was the skirt coating.

Wow just realized there is 3 pages on this thread.
Perhaps wiesco's pin to bore clearance (out of the box) is causing these failures. Well... the builder should check the clearances reguardless.

 

[Sebba]

Man that's hard to read.

I don't see any post claiming manufacturer fault?seems to me he's trying to figure out what went wrong.

When someone makes a warranty claim, they are placing blame on the manufacturer.

 

[bastarddsm]

I used to be a huge proponent of wiseco's stuff a few years ago, and then I had an issue...
I vintage motocross a '83 Honda XR350, well a couple years ago I rebuilt the motor in it with a wiseco piston and valves. Now the valves are listed for a newer XR400, which is very very similar to the 350. The valves are virtually identical other than the 400's have a 1mm bigger head, and the stems are 0.01" shorter. The bike ran really well after the rebuild for one race. Next day I was warming it up to change the oil, and it randomly quit, and wouldn't turn over afterwards. Upon dissection I found an intake valve had failed in the keeper groove, and dropped the valve. Broke the guide, and scored the piston. Looking at the other valves, they ALL had a poor finish in the keeper groves, with several possible stress risers, and once exhaust valve was close to failing. I called wiseco, and they gave me an RMA number for the two valves, but wouldn't help on the piston or the other two valves. I told them to #### off, bought Kibble White valves, and havn't had a problem since.

Now my second gripe with Wiseco's stuff. These cracks, their quality, the price. It may well be possible that these cracks are installer error, but being that these are considered a race part, I'd think they should be more durable than they are. I have never heard about Ross, JE, Arias pistons doing this, and they all use the same 2613 alloy..Obviously there is some flaw with the Wiseco's. I remember reading about these cracks back in like 2003 when I first got a dsm. Why hasn't Wiseco revised the pistons, or at least released a tech brief about proper ptw to keep this from happening? I will also say that Wiseco's are not the nicest pistons out there. The machine shop I grew up in wouldn't put wiseco's in anything but a dirtbike. Everything was Ross and JE, and Arias for the big dollar stuff. I feel like to many people have this feeling what Wiseco's are the only pistons to run, and that is certainly not true. I can't understand why Wiseco's have some the of the highest prices these days either.

Anyway, I'm not buying another set of Wiseco's unless I'm forced to, or get them super cheap.

 

[DSMReviver]

Jeff Bush did manage to run 8.3 in 1/4mile with wiseco hd's. @55psi you can still see his side coating on his pistons.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/ven...k-tech-showcase-jeff-bush-english-racing.html

 

[1fastlaser]

That is a bad comparision because that car only is on a trailer or at the track.

I ran regular Wiseco pistons in the 2.4 it last 8 years. It had the minor stress cracks in the skirts, but 8 years on 93 octane, 36psi and a gt42 feeding the motor air I couldnt complain. Car leaned out because of a Nitrous fuel feed fitting breaking while I was on the go pedal.

New motor is Wiseco HD 2.4. I would say it seems that something in the motor was not setup right, and it just took time and some power to start working its magic!

 

[kidtsi]

Wiseco FTW... Stop blaming manufactures, i thought everything was over when JAM posted. Now everyone is saying "i would never use Wisecos again blahblahblah" instead you kids should say "i would never built a motor myself again."

 

[Sebba]

There is obviously a flaw in their design if multiple people are experiencing the exact same failure.

User error in this case sped the process up nicely.

 

[kidtsi]

I had build 7 4g63 blocks with Wiseco. 4 7 bolts 97+ and 3 6 bolts. None of them failed on my like that or in the cars i put them on and the one that have less mileage is 13k right now and no stress cracks, every motor was checked for proper PTW, pin clearance and proper ring gaps for my boost levels.

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

There is obviously a flaw in their design if multiple people are experiencing the exact same failure.

User error in this case sped the process up nicely.

This.

My Wiseco failed at the EXACT same spots as the OP, after 65,000 miles of hard abuse. Still had perfect compression before the failure. There is certainly a flaw in either their design, manufacture or the material used. There are several other people on the Link forums who have found these exact same cracks on their Wisecos. However, I'm not sure that the problem is serious enough to cause actual failures in all cases.

 

[91stocker]

This.

My Wiseco failed at the EXACT same spots as the OP, after 65,000 miles of hard abuse.

That is epic success in my books. 65k miles at over 100hp per cylinder, over 200hp per liter. And "hard abuse". How can you not be happy as hell with that?

That is a bad comparision because that car only is on a trailer or at the track.

I ran regular Wiseco pistons in the 2.4 it last 8 years. It had the minor stress cracks in the skirts, but 8 years on 93 octane, 36psi and a gt42 feeding the motor air I couldnt complain. Car leaned out because of a Nitrous fuel feed fitting breaking while I was on the go pedal.

New motor is Wiseco HD 2.4. I would say it seems that something in the motor was not setup right, and it just took time and some power to start working its magic!

Agreed with all of that ^^

 

[JacksonAuto]

Were these standard bore pistons?

 

[VTEC_THIS]

Were these standard bore pistons?

They were .020" over actually.

 

[Sebba]

That is epic success in my books. 65k miles at over 100hp per cylinder, over 200hp per liter. And "hard abuse". How can you not be happy as hell with that?

Because a piston of equal price and superior quality could have achieved significantly more if it wasn't for Wiseco's failure. I can't imagine the frustration (oh wait, yes I can I own a DSM).

Wear and tear is acceptable, but complete failure and loss of function as a result is not only a disappointment it's expensive as ####. So yes, I can see exactly why someone would be upset their pistons failed prematurely.

 

[daren_p]

Wow, lots of people over reacting in this thread. Someone posts up one piston failure & all of a sudden these pistons are junk? Do you know how many people run these pistons, putting them through all kinds of abuse without failures? I'm not an expert but the first thing that came to mind when seeing the pics posted was assembly/clearance issues, which is no fault of Wiseco. Even if it is a manufacturing defect, things happen, parts fail, no company is going to be 100% perfect all the time.

Yes, skirt cracking has been seen in their standard pistons before but I believe the issue is related to the "std" wrist pins they use. Believe they flex more then they should. If your running the standard Wiseco's, upgraded wrist pins would be a good idea if you plan on beating on the motor.