Crank starting point for timing belt on 7bolt

[bizie]

Can someone please reassure me that my timing is aligned correctly. It seems like I can either get it a tooth backward or a tooth forward but never where I want it. I can not get the indicator in the center of the V-notch. Here are my two starting points I can find.. I have don't successful timing jobs on a couple 6bolts but this 7bolt timing mark is unsettling.
I am guessing the 2nd pic is right because the other one is way off. The only problem with pic two is that once I pull the tensioner pin it goes even further forward. When I go a tooth back and pull the pin it seems like it never goes forward enough to align the v notch and front cover indicator. Can someone reassure me? Yes I have searched... I'm trying to save time. I've got a hr in searching and reading so far. I know someone can help expedite the process. Please!

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[JusMX141]

I've probably done more 7-bolts than 6-bolts over the years, never had an issue with either one....the procedure is quite similar. You're definitely not lining up properly, there.

http://vfaq.com/mods/timingbelt-2G.html

 

[bizie]

What I'm asking is what is the proper line up? The notch going directly to the center of the V? This is impossible for me for find with proper tensioner gap and the cams directly aligned with the top of the cylinder head. I do have my cam dowel pins at the top also.

I can get the crank best aligned with the cam marks about a half tooth above the top of the head. When I put a straight edge against it you can see the notches line up somewhat v shaped rather than a perfect line. When the cams are directly at the top of the head and I use a straight edge you can tell the marks line up real nice, but at this point I can't get the crank v center of the case notch.

This is day two of messing with it... I think I am going to need therapy to get through this. The frustration levels are rising.

I appreciate the vfaq but I have read it about thirty times. I really am hoping for a pic of exactly how the notch is suppose to line up on the crank.

Why can't they just make it a straight notch like the cams have? Wth is with this huge v notch anyway? Seems like they have too much room for error this way.

 

[Cruciatus111]

An easy way of seeing if your crank is in the right position is to remove the number 1 spark plug then put a long extension into the cylinder and find the point when the extension is at its highest point, that means your piston is at tdc and your crank will be in the correct position. I have done this several times and I don't even go by the crank notch any more.

 

[DSM16G20PSI]

I just did my timing belt last week and found that setting the cams with the dowel pins up (I have a fixed cam gear tool that goes between the gears so they don't move) and then turn the crankshaft clockwise by hand until the screwdriver in cyl 1 is at its highest point (this is TDC). You will notice if you go either direction at this point there is a flat spot that allows you to settle that notch where it needs to be. At this point set your oil pump gear and run the belt starting at the top as per vfaq. The hardest part is not allowing the exhaust cam to rotate back when you put the belt on. I believe this is where you are having the issue. I hope this helps.

 

[chrysler kid]

Well from your description you are not setting belt tension properly, when you remove the pin after correctly setting tension with the pulley the arm should not move.

You're off a tooth, make sure you start at the cam gears when putting on the belt, zip tie the belt onto the cam gears, then work downward. My timing mark was directly in the middle, I marked the old belt, the gears, and the new belt, so I knew the new belt on went back on exactly where the old belt came off

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[luv2rallye]

The tab pointer points to the middle of the "V" notch. Align the cam sprocket notches with a ruler between the cam bolt heads. See: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/i-think-my-timing-is-off-a-tooth.500744/#post-153571025.

To prevent being off a tooth read the red note on step 33 here: http://vfaq.com/mods/timingbelt-2G.html

 

[bizie]

I'm not having an issue with the exhaust cam rotating. I don't know if the fact that I bleed my lifters and everything is new and not being serviced, but the cams stay pretty stable. Actually it is the intake cam that is trying to go back a half of tooth. Could the fact that I'm using a 2.4 3g bottom end have anything to do with it?

When I try to move any notches a tooth in any direction my final timing ends up way off. The closest I can get it is pic number two. When I pull the tensioner pin it comes out easily and doesn't move.

I've tried different belts to no avil, because I have plenty laying around here.. I double checked my pulleys and all.

When I have it set like pic two it also makes the oil pump sprocket a hair forward. If I rotate the engine a hair backward (counter clock) the the oil pump and crank marks line up perfectly but the exhaust cam is a half tooth off. If I adjust only the exhaust cam one notch in either direction it gets much further off than a half notch.

Right now I seem to be a hair off. The piston is at its highest position, just about to go downward, but still at tdc.... It's highest point... If I adjust the crank, oil pump, or any cams one tooth than I become much more than a hair off.

I am going to mess with it some more and take some more pics. I'm pretty fast at setting it now. ! Maybe the belt just needs to stretch? Dang it.

 

[chrysler kid]

No, you're not getting good at it you're setting the timing incorrectly.

I can't be polite about it anymore but you need to read the vfaq step by step.

 

[bizie]

Good at doing it wrong. it's the same procedure no matter the position of the tooth...

Thanks for pointing out everything obvious.

 

[bizie]

This is not one tooth off. It is a half tooth off. My next post will be pics of it rotated into exact desired position and you can see the cam notches are slightly off. When I adjust it a tooth with way the lining on everything goes out. I will also do that and show pics. I am either missing something or being too critical.

 

[bizie]

This is with the bottom end in the desired position. I know what you're thinking, just rotate the exhaust a notch counter clock. Well when I do this it is way off. I will do it and take pics.

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

I'm going to make this very simple. Forget the timing mark. Remove the #1 cylinder spark plug and stick a CLEAN screwdriver or extension in the are turn the crank from where it is right now until you can see the extension or whatever is at the highest point. That is all the timing mark is trying to achieve. Now set your cam gears and oil pump and put the belt on.

 

[bizie]

Once I loosen the tensioner pulley the crank and oil pump line up perfectly. I get the half of tooth movement once I set my tension to spec. I really don't think I should change the belt position to take pics and set it back to where I have it now, which I think is correct. I have been using a long allen wrench as a tdc marker and with it in this current position it is at tdc and the cams are aligned.

So we should be told to line up the cams perfectly at top of the cylinder head with a straight edge, and then lace the belt over the oil pump and crank with the timing marks lined up, then tension it to spec and be done with it.

I have tried to account for the half of tooth movement, but there is no half a tooth adjustment on the belt. Hahaha.

 

[luv2rallye]

Could the fact that I'm using a 2.4 3g bottom end have anything to do with it?

Possibly. Someone else will have to chime in on this.

Maybe the belt just needs to stretch?

Didn't you do this? EVERY time you re-tension the belt it MUST BE rotated at least 2 crank revs (I do 6 to recheck all marks) and allowed to sit 15 minutes for the belt to stretch.

Here's some tips for the stock 4g63 turbo timing belt tensioning:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/timing-belt-tensioning-tips-for-4g63-turbo.214625/

 

[jim95redgsx]

Could the fact that I'm using a 2.4 3g bottom end have anything to do with it.

I believe that this is your problem. I'm not very familiar with the 2.4 3G block but I believe that the block is 6mm taller than the 2 liter block (same as the 1G or 2G 2.4 blocks).

The only 2.4 block that was used with the DOHC head was the 1994 Galant GS. This engine used different cam gears and timing belt than the 2 liter DOHC engines. The cam gears are identical except for the timing marks which are about a 1/2 tooth off. The timing belt also has 154 teeth while the standard belt has 153 teeth.

You can use the 2 liter cams gears with the 2.4 block but the cam gear timing marks will be around a 1/2 tooth off.

Some people have reported using the 2 liter timing belt with the 2.4 block. Do a search for "2.4 block with DOHC head".

Jim

 

[bizie]

One tooth accounts for 3/8th of a inch movement on the gear. The only way I can align the crank mark closest the center of the v is by aligning the cams just slightly above the top of the cylinder head. When you put a straight edge under the notches you can tell they are not perfectly aligned. I'm pretty sure they would stamp those cam gears with one straight edge so that the align perfectly straight. The bottom end notches seem to not be so precisely machined..

Should I open the cams up a little to better align the crank notch? This is pics of what I get.. It all seems a half tooth off the other way. And the cams are now aligned slightly above the cylinder head.

I did let the belt stretch I even left it on over night.

Jim you're right about the block being taller, and I guarantee that is where the extra space is coming from. Eureka! Thank you so much!

 

[bizie]

And everything always gets torqued to spec. For you meaneys that say I'm not getting good at it, I will race you... In a timing belt job... Hahahahaha. Well, I'll race you in my car also but they are all being worked on right now. TT stealth, awd talon, FWD eclipse. Pick your poison. They are all modified and very fast... When they are running. Hahahahaha!

 

[jim95redgsx]

When using 2 liter cam gears on a 2.4 block, you'll want to align the timing mark on the crankshaft, not the cam gears.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

This video may help.

Jim

 

[bizie]

I have found some information some of which that says you need to use adjustable cam gears with the 154 tooth Galant belt and adjust the timing of the cams, which I've never done before. http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/timing-belt-for-4g64-w-63-head.350100/

I also saw a video on YouTube that says you can just advance the timing on the cam gears a half tooth. This would put me in the position that I was when I was slightly ahead of the case mark. When I rotate the crank slightly back counter clock the cam gears would line up a half a tooth advanced on each. However, this gentleman's engine was on a stand, so I'm not sure if he knows the exact degree of the timing, or how he knew it to be dead on by advancing the cam gear marks? Can I share a utube link on here?

I also read about a guy that ground the tensioner arm a quarter inch and used 4g63 timing applications.

I'm not totally sure what route I should take...

 

[bizie]

Jim, that's the video I just saw. Thank you so much for your help. Hevs yeah!

 

[pauleyman]

Post 17 your crank is still not lined up. Post 12 it is. Once in position, tensioned and rotated again all marks should line up. I'm not convinced you don't have slack on the idle side. You also keep posting pics where crank is not lined up.

 

[pauleyman]

BTW longer belt does not affect timing. It would only affect the position of the eccentric pulley. Think about it. The distance between teeth is fixed. One extra tooth doesn't change the diatance from cams to crank.

 

[bizie]

I think you skim read the thread. Did you miss it being a 2.4 bottom end? If you read you would have seen that jim95redgsx figured it out for me. Well, we are 99% sure..since it's not yet running.

Anyhow, on a 4g64/4g63 build, the cam gears need to be a half tooth advanced with the crank and oil sprocket marks lined up. That, or I need the 4g64 belt and adjustable cam gears, or someone else said they ground the tensioner arm about 1/4". Did you miss all of that? With a 4g64/bottom end the cam gear distance to crank is already extended... Think about it... ;-)

I'm posting different pics of the crank not lining up because they all had the cams in different positions. If you read you would have also seen that...

Here I thought I was going crazy. Nope! Still know what I'm doing...thanks again Jim

 

[pauleyman]

I didn't skim it. I think you do need the belt but as I read it it was for different reasons. I would get the 4g64 cam gears.
I would bet that the 4g63 gears will run but in reality they are slightly off. You know for sure they aren't in the positions intended if they are 4g63 cams and gears. Is it because of the deck height? Yes I would agree that's why.