Continuos head gasket problems?

[MNGSX]

The factory HG tolerates more error in head/deck straightness and is less tempermental when it comes to part surface finish.

The metal HG conforms and compresses to the groove of o-ringed parts making it the natural choice if you are o-ringing.

It does'nt like irregular straightness, slight warpage or non compatable surface finishes. You should get the straightness and suface finish right to keep the oil and coolant passages sealed. The o-ringing will have an almost too solid bore/head seal.

OE headgaskets have been run well under 10 seconds so why bother with a metal one unless you o-ringed?

 

[GRNDSM]

>Have you chased the threads with a tap to make sure they are clean so you're
>getting a good torque value on those studs?

These were almost new studs, which were vertually perfect!

>95ftlbs with arp lube is actually a lot of torque

95 is pretty much an accepted standard. Many people take it up to 110-115 with ARP lube, which I find excessive.

>and 105ftlbs with ARP lube is crazy torque.

I have always thought that re-torqueing head studs was kind of useless. This time, was no different, the nuts did no even budge when torque was set to 105, so I basically had 95.

>I wonder if you're not distorting the block deck from the amount of torque being applied?

I doubt it, as I do not believe that my torque was excessive. But I will be pulling the head later this week and I should be able to check everything.

Leon
RR

 

[NosLaser]

Cometic actually recommends against O-ringing parts when you use their head gasket since their fire ring is extremely hard. If you already have an o-ringed block and plan on using their gasket, they recommend a very low profile soft copper o-ring. I went pretty far in depth with one of the techs at Cometic on this subject, and I guess he allowed me to pick his brain because I knew the right questions to ask.

Regards,

 

[MNGSX]

I guess it depends on which one of their gaskets.

I just can't see anything but OE unless I'm o-ringing then the appropriate MLS or dead soft copper for the o-rings.

Stock HG's can put up with a lot on these engines.

 

[MNGSX]

The ARP site wont have the TQ level at which heads and blocks start to get out of shape.

It will have the recomended TQ levels and stretch yeilds for their fasters based on fastener type (bolt or stud) and composition (different grades ARP2000 etc).


You can tq too much and exceed the yeild strength of the stud and the head will actually be more likely to lift with the over loaded bolts.

 

[QuickerDSM]

Here is a bit of helpful information,,, maybe.

There is a local guy in my area that has been working on DSM's for numerous years. His advice to me when I replaced my head gasket was to use the steel MLS Mitsu gasket. But,,, he added that I should use a copper spray on both sides of the gasket (made by Permatex). This fills in the small inconsistencies and makes for a great seal with the steel gasket to prevent the 'water pushing' problem associated with the steely.

Also, I had the 'water pushing' problem before the head gasket completely failed on me. So this should be a good test to see if this is actually worth the effort. I also had the head surfaced because it was warped .010". I installed ARP studs with it also and plan to push the boost levels of the big16G to around 21-22psi at the track. I'll keep you all updated on this if you want.

Mike

 

[peregrine]

please do.

 

[loreak]

my car used to blow water out the overflow, my waterpump was going bad, it started out blowing most out the overflow, but then it got to the point where it just leaked at the waterpump....maybe its the waterpump.....even though it is brand new, didnt sbr try and help you out?

 

[GRNDSM]

Who said that SBR is not helping me out? I just wanted to update people on my latest experience with Cometic head gasket...

I am going to do something different and give it another try. If it fails again, I am tossing that gasket .

Leon
RR

 

[MNGSX]

I can't see running them. If the fire ring (what seals the bore) is'nt any different than an OE gasket and the coolant/oil passages don't like to seal all that well if everything is'nt prefect. Why bother?

 

[1badgsx]

Originally posted by GRNDSM
>Have you chased the threads with a tap to make sure they are clean so you're
>getting a good torque value on those studs?

These were almost new studs, which were vertually perfect!

>95ftlbs with arp lube is actually a lot of torque

95 is pretty much an accepted standard. Many people take it up to 110-115 with ARP lube, which I find excessive.

>and 105ftlbs with ARP lube is crazy torque.

I have always thought that re-torqueing head studs was kind of useless. This time, was no different, the nuts did no even budge when torque was set to 105, so I basically had 95.

>I wonder if you're not distorting the block deck from the amount of torque being applied?

I doubt it, as I do not believe that my torque was excessive. But I will be pulling the head later this week and I should be able to check everything.

Leon
RR

You should only be going to 90 lbs.ft.
Are you tighting in a circular motion starting from the inner two studs?
Start at 30 lbs. ft.
then60 lbs. ft.
then 90 lbs. ft.
This will insure that a distortion is removed from the head.
Use a multi-steel head gasket, and spray it with hi temp copper spray.

 

[GRNDSM]

>You should only be going to 80 lbs.ft.

You know something that ARP doesn't? They call out 86 ft*lbs with Moly lube and 109 with 30 wt. oil. Most people who build these motors go to 90-95 ft*lbs with Moly lube...


Leon
RR

 

[gritsak]

i dont have any good insite on this topic, but im going through an engine build right now and trying to decide on what gasket to use.

this is my setup and ill let everyone knows how it goes...im gonna use the factory metal HG with copper spray, ive got an o-ringed block, and arp head studs...and resurfaced head.

once the motor is broken in its gonna get pushed hard (25-30psi on a 60-1 turbo) so hopefully it holds up

 

[turbobrian]

from what i have heard you would not want to use a metal hg because the oring has to bite into something. the composite mitsu hg or a copper hg would be the way to go, or the cometic (im not sure what material is the gasket to block material is made of) but i would look into this befor you do the mitsu.

brian

 

[1badgsx]

Originally posted by 1badgsx




You should only be going to 80 lbs.ft.
Are you tighting in a circular motion starting from the inner two studs?
Start at 30 lbs. ft.
then60 lbs. ft.
then 80 lbs. ft.
This will insure that a distortion is removed from the head.
Use a multi-steel head gasket, and spray it with hi temp copper spray.

sorry about that meant 90 typed 80...twice!

 

[MNGSX]

If the block and head is oringed use a dead soft copper not a cometic or a mitsu.

Its just one solid sheet of soft copper. It will conform to the o-rings.

Spray it with the hylomar or other high temp gasket spray.

 

[gritsak]

Originally posted by MNGSX
If the block and head is oringed use a dead soft copper not a cometic or a mitsu.

Its just one solid sheet of soft copper. It will conform to the o-rings.

Spray it with the hylomar or other high temp gasket spray.

just my block is o-ringed...in your post at the top of the page you said "The metal HG conforms and compresses to the groove of o-ringed parts making it the natural choice if you are o-ringing."

i really dont want to use a copper headgasket..ive never heard of anyone (personally) having luck with them..

im really confused on all the info here for what is the best known to go about headgasket setups..especially in HP applications..if there even is a best way

 

[DSMu4ia]

Most guys I know who have o-rings, have had to try several different combinations of gaskets and ring sizes to find one that doesn't push coolant.

 

[gritsak]

Originally posted by DSMu4ia
Most guys I know who have o-rings, have had to try several different combinations of gaskets and ring sizes to find one that doesn't push coolant.

man i dont have the time or money to swap head gaskets and different rings all the time i wish this headgasket deal was a simple "this is the best way to do it"

 

[QuickerDSM]

Gritsak,

Not sure you read my post above about the stock MLS gasket with the copper gasket spray or not, but I'll be having it running again soon. Within the next week or so I'll be pushing some good amount of boost through it for testing.

FWIW, my friend that told me to use the copper gasket spray with the MLS gasket uses an FP Red and pushes over 22psi regularly. He has also had luck re-using the gasket with the spray at this level so I have some decent faith in this setup.

The reason the copper/o-ringed setups push coolant is because the head can't squash the gasket outside of the o-rings enough to seal the water jackets well. These setups are best left to race cars due to sealing problems with water jackets. I know of a few turbo V8 guys that tried that on street cars with horrible results (leaking coolant etc..).

 

[turbobrian]

i have also heard that some of the fast fast guys dont even have water going through the block anymore. the passages are filled up. the head has water going through it. i would recomend staying away from the oring if you dont have the time or money to swap in different orings and hg's. just get the block and head resurfaced and use the metal mitsu hg. i know of many people running as much as 30 psi with good luck so far. but sometimes its just plain luck that it works out.

brian

 

[gritsak]

when i bought my block it was already o-ringed so i really dont have much a choice now...right now the ring doesnt sit above the deck...maybe if i was to get a ring that just barely sits above the deck when i torque down the head the metal headgasket would compress against the ring and smash it enough to get a good seal.

maybe i should try and get ahold of other people with oringed blocks and find out what works best with them

 

[turbobrian]

what boost are you planning on running? if its below 25 i would think that the stock composite mitsu gasket would be fine for you with the oring. in e town sometime ago i thought i saw the composite gasket on brent rau's tubeframe. he pulled the head because of head problems and i saw that he had an oring and the gasket looked perfect, if it dint work then why would he be using it. many people from my area have run this gasket up to 25psi and a few have gone higher. i would think its your best bet. def use arp with molly..just my .02 cents.

brian

 

[gritsak]

Originally posted by turbobrian
what boost are you planning on running? if its below 25 i would think that the stock composite mitsu gasket would be fine for you with the oring. in e town sometime ago i thought i saw the composite gasket on brent rau's tubeframe. he pulled the head because of head problems and i saw that he had an oring and the gasket looked perfect, if it dint work then why would he be using it. many people from my area have run this gasket up to 25psi and a few have gone higher. i would think its your best bet. def use arp with molly..just my .02 cents.

brian

i plan on pushing the motor hard...its mostly a track car and will see 25-30psi on race gas

 

[GRNDSM]

I am not 100% sure what is the best gasket available at this time. There are our choices:

Stock composite gasket: many people have good luck with it up to 30psi. BR swears by it on all of their cars, only they use it with O-ringed head. The tricky part is that block and/or head has to be o-right JUST RIGHT for the specific type of gasket that you are using. So if BR can achieve a perfect seal with THEIR o-rings and stock gasket, does not mean that any other shop will be able to duplicated it…

Mitsu multi layer: again, many people use it with great results.

Cometic: fairly new to DSMs, but has pretty good track record on other cars. Looks like a better quality Mitsu multi layer gasket. The problem that I see with Cometic gaskets, is that they require a VERY SMOOTH surface to seal well (this according to Cometic tech support people). Many machine shops might not give you good enough surface finish to assure that Cometic gasket seals. I am not 100% sure, but I would imagine that Mitsu multi layer gasket would have a similar issue.

Copper gaskets with O-rings: not very popular in DSMs.

HK$… way overpriced, I do not know anyone using them…

On my next motor, I am going to use “very fine” surface finish on both head and the block, together with Cometic gasket. If it fails again, I am going to ditch Cometic gaskets and go to something else.

Leon
RR