Head Gasket

[BISHILVR]

psh. i would still never use it. my friend seen on a video (building a 4g63 in less then 10mins) and he used that stuff on everything (headgasket, water pump, oil pump). so my friend did the same thing. well, to make a long story short he had to end up pulling the water pump, and oil pump and oil filter housing because they didnt seal...

Some people just cant learn from others mistakes. I think you and I are the only ones that realize what a no-no spray-a-gasket is.

 

[BISHILVR]

If you have access to the NABR tech archives I suggest looking in there As for your Rau example, well his car and ours have very little in common other than the motor designation.

Well, what is so different about his head and block than "ours"? It sure looked the same when I was there and the head was off. I did'nt notice any space age polymers or anything on his head/block sealing surfaces.

 

[dnhieu]

i use this theory. if it doesnt have any kind of gasket sealer on it stock then i leave it alone. the only places i even like to put rvt on is the throttle body seals ( if i got them from the local parts store) and the turbo oil drain line...

 

[dnhieu]

Heh, well if your friend was using that "build your 4G63 in 10 minutes" video as an engine build guide he's probably going to have other problems as well. I copper coated my oil pump case gasket, water pump gasket, water neck gasket, head gasket, and oil pump and have no problems whatsoever. Now you pretty much can't scew up spraying on copper-coat, so I'd look elsewhere for the problem

ummm...we didnt use the video to put the motor together. he just watched the video and made the observation that he was using copper spray on all of his gaskets...

 

[Street Surgeon]

Well, what is so different about his head and block than "ours"? It sure looked the same when I was there and the head was off. I did'nt notice any space age polymers or anything on his head/block sealing surfaces.

What are you running for fuel, is it the same as his, what kind of boost are you running, is it the same as his, do you have Magnus on retainer as well, is your head prepped as well as his? Are you seriously comparing your and our cars with a 6 second pro-outlaw RWD 4G63 powered vehicle with decal headlamps I suppose you'll run methanol now too since he does!

All I'm saying is that tons of people run this copperspray with no problems and it's well documented on reputable sites where the people that drive those cars and build the motors for them post, you know, like the person that handed you a garbage headgasket

 

[dnhieu]

are you running copper spray on your headgasket. im starting to think that this is a personal opinion type of thing. the only thing i can relate it to at the moment would be some people LOVING stock head gaskets over the MLS headgasket...

 

[BISHILVR]

Yeah, my point is that if Brent Rau can seal his motor without the use of spray-a-gasket, then I should think that guys like you should have no problem without it. And as far as Brent Rau's engine is concerned, his head is still a stock mitsu aluminum casting, and his block is still a stock iron mitsu casting, so as far as the headgasket is concerned (stock mitsu) they would be in the same situation as mine or yours is (the headgasket doesnt care about him running alchohol, certain piston brands, certain turbo brands, it only cares about the surfaces it has to seal and how well it has to seal, and he does it with no spray)

 

[Street Surgeon]

are you running copper spray on your headgasket. im starting to think that this is a personal opinion type of thing. the only thing i can relate it to at the moment would be some people LOVING stock head gaskets over the MLS headgasket...

If you read the above post you would see that I am indeed running a copper coated Cometic HP, as well as a few other gaskets coated with it with NO problems whatsoever. The bottom line is many fast guys use this stuff with no problems period, don't believe me, search the NABR tech archives and see for yourself. Just because Brent Rau tossed you a headgasket (which is a cute story by the way) doesn't mean it's not beneficial to use!

I'm not saying it's an absolute MUST but it has never hurt on either my 2.3 or my little brothers 611rwhp SR. Sealed perfectly, just sprayed it over, torqued down in sequence, heat cycled, torqued down again. No worries don't think twice about it.

Now if you want to run without it, sure it can and has been done tons of times and as long as you have a clean smooth surface to put the gasket on, if you follow the proper install procedure you'll have no problems either, but I chose to run the copper spray for a little extra help on sealing and several knowledgeable guys recommended using it (as well as a high pressure radiator cap) with my cometic which has a tendency to push coolant at high boost pressures.

 

[BISHILVR]

and several knowledgeable guys recommended using it (as well as a high pressure radiator cap) with my cometic which has a tendency to push coolant at high boost pressures.

I dont know, but I think that anybody that told me that I should run a higher pressure radiator cap because my cometic gasket was supposed to push coolant at high boost would not be someone I would be taking advice from. You must think that Rau like threw me a head gasket like a t-shirt to a fan, . No, I assisted the head gasket change my friend.

 

[jibberishballr]

You guys are confusing me on what do when I put the headgasket on . I had the head resurfaced to a mirror finish but am not sure now If I should use copper spray or not. I'm gonna do a search on it but was wondering If anyone has had problems from the copper spray itself?

 

[Street Surgeon]

You misunderstand. On occasion the cometic has been known to push coolant, sometimes coolant is pushed out of the overflow bottle even. To help against this many people have found that running a 1.2bar or better radiator cap can stop this from happening, as well as copper coating the gasket. The guys that gave me this advice are very very knowledgeable and I'll take their advice over yours any day.

How many motors have you built that ever had a problem with copper spray'd gaskets?

 

[turbo addict]

Which ones? Just wondering, cause I was there when Brent Rau changed his head gasket (he handed it to me to look at) and I know he did'nt use spray a gasket on it and he still runs a pretty good time without it.

was at the shoot out 2006 and I saw (and think that i even have a picture of) Rau himself spraying copper onto his head gasket.

 

[jibberishballr]

You misunderstand. On occasion the cometic has been known to push coolant, sometimes coolant is pushed out of the overflow bottle even. To help against this many people have found that running a 1.2bar or better radiator cap can stop this from happening, as well as copper coating the gasket. The guys that gave me this advice are very very knowledgeable and I'll take their advice over yours any day.

How many motors have you built that ever had a problem with copper spray'd gaskets?

Well I havent really found anyone who's had problems when using the copper spray so I think I am going to try it when I put the headgasket on. Wish me luck.

 

[BISHILVR]

was at the shoot out 2006 and I saw (and think that i even have a picture of) Rau himself spraying copper onto his head gasket.

Lol, you def dont have a pic of Rau spraying copper gasket maker on his gasket!

 

[dnhieu]

Well I havent really found anyone who's had problems when using the copper spray so I think I am going to try it when I put the headgasket on. Wish me luck.

let me ask you this question. does your headgasket get sprayed with copper spray stock? apparently it doesnt make a diffrence if you have it or you dont. so do what you want really...

 

[BISHILVR]

You misunderstand. On occasion the cometic has been known to push coolant, sometimes coolant is pushed out of the overflow bottle even. To help against this many people have found that running a 1.2bar or better radiator cap can stop this from happening, as well as copper coating the gasket. The guys that gave me this advice are very very knowledgeable and I'll take their advice over yours any day.

How many motors have you built that ever had a problem with copper spray'd gaskets?

I build engines every day! Thousands per year, and I have never had a leak from any of them yet, and they go together dry as the manufacture recommends. When I was little like 13 y/o I had a can of copper gasket spray and used to think like you do, and sprayed it on all of my gaskets on my race bikes, when I had a few leaks in a month using the stuff my dad was like you dont use that on heads. I did'nt use it next time and never had a leak and never used it again, matter of fact I probably still have the can. I have'nt used it on head gaskets since then and I've never had a single problem with any of the thousands that I have put together since (cars, bikes, mowers, whatever). Bottom line is that I think the gasket manufacture has researched the use of it just a little more than you or I have and I will trust them on this one, they have'nt been wrong yet and I have no reason to doubt them. Take anybodys advice you want to my friend, its good for the economy.

 

[turbo addict]

I talked to one of my friends that was with me at the shootout and he remembers seeing him do it too. He has the pictures. I will look through the them tomorrow I have like 1500 pics to look at but I will find it if we have it.

 

[boosting_laser]

Gasket manufactures tell you not to, and it says right on the can "holds and seals "cut" gaskets" which does not apply to the head gasket......

According to Permatex:

"Suggested Applications: Cylinder head gaskets, carburetor gaskets, exhaust manifold gaskets and other high temperature applications"

Permatex Copper Spray-a-gasket

 

[BISHILVR]

According to Permatex:

"Suggested Applications: Cylinder head gaskets, carburetor gaskets, exhaust manifold gaskets and other high temperature applications"

Permatex Copper Spray-a-gasket

Funny, I just pulled a can from my tool box before I typed that that said "for cut gaskets" right on the front of the can!!! I did that because I thought I remember the can stating not to use it for head gaskets. And once again that is for cut head gaskets on small engines NOT cars.

 

[project_tsi]

I've ran a handful of head gaskets over the years. Stock, FelPro, Napa, Cometic, Mitsu MLS, Titan ICS. Ran some dry and some sprayed with copper spray. I've ran the stock, Cometic, and Mitsu MLS both dry and copper coated. No these were not all on my cars, but every time the head was decked and the block wet sanded. Its hard to get the surface any better than what I do.

Anyways, I prefer to run the gaskets with copper coating. I personally have had much better luck this way. And yes, every time every thing was properly torqued, etc. Most of the setups were with ARP's also with there moly lube.

I spray my HG's by doing 6-8 light coats held about 8-10" away. I let the individual coats dry for about 2 min and then do the next coat. I then let it dry for a little longer and proceed to install the head.

And yes, stock HG's have been proven to hold over 700whp. Its all in proper setup and the tune.

 

[TimG]

I've never once used copper spray. I've always machine the block and head when running a MLS HG and cleaned and checked the head for a stock composite HG. I've definitely done over 15 headgaskets in the past 2 years. Some are stock cars running 10psi. Some are road course warriors running 16-20psi on 14bs or 16gs. Some are ice racers seeing 20-23psi on evo16gs. Some drag racers are seeing 25-28psi on 50-trims and 60-1s.

None leak. None popped. Knock on wood. My vote is not AGAINST copper seal but it's FOR a bare surface. It's worked for me in various applications.

 

[99gst_racer]

Damn, I wish I would have noticed this thread earlier this morning..... The President of SCE gasket (Ryan Hunter) was just in my building giving a product seminar, and I wasn't awake enough to think to ask him his opinion of copper spray on different gasket materials. I'll see if I can go find him - hopefully he hasn't left yet....

 

[oldman]

BISHILVR and Street Surgeon, both of your posts are getting personal, both of you need to back off, keep it technical and on topic before the thread gets closed.

I have ran my composite with copper spray for two years and currently running my mitsu MLS/ARP (torqued to 100psi) with copper spray, havn't had a problem. (knock on wood) I do agree that unless someone can provide a string of failures pointing directly at the copper spray, the statement "copper spray should never be used on the HG" remains just an opinion.

 

[wishihadatalon]

I run mine with out spray. No problems yet and none forseen. I will agree its all in the prep. If you feel that spraying it with copper will make you sleep better at night then do it. But I would never say its needed.

 

[Quasimondo]

I can only give you my personal experience.

On my first rebuild, I used a Cometic gasket. It was installed with no copper spray. The head and block was resurfaced, and ARP studs were used. They were torqued down in the pattern as specified in the FSM, and since I had the moly-lube from ARP, they were torqued to 80 ft/lbs in 20 ft/lb increments, as specified in the instructions. I had problems with the engine pushing coolant from the moment it started up. After the engine had warmed up, I loosened and retorqued the bolts. This minimized how much coolant I was losing, but the problem never went away.

An improperly installed balance shaft bearing led to a quick death for this engine, requiring a second rebuild. The second time around, I used the same head gasket, but this time I used two coats of copper spray. Since I didn't have the moly lube, I torqued the studs in 20 ft/lb steps to 100 ft/lbs, using 10W-30 motor oil as lubricant (the ARP instructions recommend the moly-lube, but do give torque settings if you use conventional motor oil). After the engine was put together and started up, I checked for signs of pushed coolant. There was none. I never retorqued the studs since I never lost any coolant. It is possible that since I had installed the studs previously and heat cycled them already, there may have been no need to. After the second build, I never lost coolant.

When I was putting my Galant together, I went with a Mitsu MLS gasket and ARP studs. The block and head were used and never rebuilt, save for replacement cam seals on the head, and fresh bearings and seals on the block. The head was never resurfaced, and neither was the block. I didn't have the moly-lube so once again, the head was torqued down in 20 ft/lb increments to 100 ft/lbs. Of all the shakedown problems I had with this car, coolant loss and/or inconsistent compression readings was not one of them.

From my personal experience, I've had better success with spraying the head gasket than I did when I installed it dry. Was the copper spray the reason I had better success? Perhaps, but the studs were torqued down tighter as well, so that might have played a role. As it stands, until I lose a head gasket, I will continue to use the copper spray whenever I have to assemble an engine.