Head Gasket

[topstreet]

You guys can do it in any matter you would like to. There is no right way that will discredit another good way. I have sealed 40+ psi on different gaskets and different methods of installing them. The way "I" have had the best results is:

Flat surfaces

Mitsu MLS or Evo 8 gasket

Roughly 3 healthy coats of Permatex brand copper spray (Ihave heard a lot of good things about the Mopar head gasket spray as well.

ARP 12mm (6bolt block) studs torqued in factory sequence to a minimum of 90lbs. *Note that the 11mm 7bolt studs can handle significantly less torque than the 12mm*

Then I re-torque them about a week later. If it is a fresh head, I will do it after and hour of running as well.

And I'm done!

This can be done other ways, and does work other ways. This is what I have had the best luck with.

This bickering crap is going nowhere and is not gaining anyone's respect. Make your OPINION known and leave it at that.

Jake H

 

[topstreet]

Oooops! I aslo wanted to add that when I am running a composite gasket on any of the stockers or people who want to leave a fuse... I do not spray the gasket. I believe this is what the Mopar spray was intended for but I am not 100%. The usually seal just fine with good surfaces and good installation.

Also wanted to add, that I have had failures with the SCE ICS Titan and I will not use them any more. If people are having good luck with them or whatever then good... It didnt work for me though. I was having MASSIVE cylinder leaking, to the point that I had exhaust marks and staining on the intake manifold. I put the Mitsu on without changing anything else (no milling, or head changes, ect...) and have been running it ever since.

 

[jibberishballr]

Quick question. If I use copper spray where exactly should I spray It? Both sides of the gasket? Just want to make sure if I use it I spray It in the right place.

 

[GVR4592]

You guys that spray the MLS gaskets, can you tell me what is the purpose of copper spray?

 

[topstreet]

You guys that spray the MLS gaskets, can you tell me what is the purpose of copper spray?

Copper spray is basically to add a slight coating of maluable sealant. The copper is so fine and soft that it will squish around and give alittle bit of a extra seal around the fire rings for example. Well, really any beaded spot. When you are dealing with a cast iron block and an aluminum head... The expansion characteristics are going to be different. This could potentially leave gaps. Also just the moving around itself and the distortion created is going to require some sort of sealing help. This is why HKS uses the silicone based top layer on their gaskets. (Spoke with the techs several times about this)

Other people just bolt the gasket down dry and call it a day. Like I said, this is what I have been having good luck with.

Just as a side note: I have been using the copper sprayed gasket (both sides, about 3 coats) all season with NO head gasket concerns. Big whoop right. How many people on here have experience with 45psi and damn near 1000 crank horse.

I am not saying that I am totally right and any thing else is wrong, but you might want to listen, considering that most people that are where I am will just let you figure it out for your self. I know... I was in that spot at one point!

Jake

 

[GVR4592]

I know what it is and what it's supposed to do, I just wanted to know the specific reason people use it.

 

[topstreet]

I know what it is and what it's supposed to do, I just wanted to know the specific reason people use it.

Sorry... Piece of mind is my reason.

 

[GVR4592]

I guess I just don't see the point, I've never had a problem with MLS gaskets sealing, but I take the time to check everything when I put an engine together. I don't trust the machinist to do it right, I always double check his work. Having a flat surface is important, but having a smooth surface is something that most people over look. If you aren't actually measuring the Ra of the block and head surfaces, then you're wasting your time and money and not installing it correctly. I know 99% of you aren't doing it right, and when you're suggesting that people use copper spray that's bad advice. Good advice would be to tell people to install the gasket correctly the first time.

 

[FORMONTOYA]

I believe it boils down to what you're going to do with the engine. Probably 90% of the people here would be fine with a dry composite gasket with ARPs torqued properly. A very limited few have actual experience trying to hold back any serious power and what that might entail.

With that said, we all form opinions based on past experience even if that experience is somewhat skewed. We learn as we go, and sometimes when things don't perform as advertised we quickly claim that it was "X" companies product that failed, when a lot of times it was our own fault for not following proper assembly procedures.

As with a lot of things in life there are several ways to reach the same end. However, there are some certainties that are known.
1. Composite gaskets are more forgiving.
2. You definitely need to have the block and head surfaces checked and more than likely decked in order to use a MLS gasket.
3. The fasteners have to be torqued in their proper sequence.
4. Other than that, the rest is pretty wide open.

 

[GVR4592]

I guess you missed this post earlier on in the thread then.


Of course you should have your block and head surfaced to the proper specs for whatever gasket you plan on running, the spray is not just a fix-it-all for someone to make sure they have a true, flat, and clean surface. My block surface was finished to 30RA and then hand-lapped by me. The spray is just a little extra insurance, and with these cars I'll take any extra insurance I can get. Saying that running the spray is a bad idea, well I'm waiting for someone to show me more than just some random example because there are too many people that have no problems with it whatsoever.

Just to clear things up one last time, my intent in this thread was/is not to argue with everyone, or to say that you MUST spray your head gasket with copper, but instead to show that it's not a bad idea at all or something you "should never do".

I didn't miss anything and I wasn't directing my comments towards you specifically, but to the people that have problems with MLS gaskets sealing under normal conditions. I'm not completely against people spraying the gasket, I'm against giving people a reason to half-ass their headgasket install.

 

[DSMJim]

I put 26 psi through my felt OEM gasket on my 7 bolt with no problems, and on more than one occation. I regurarly ran 22psi on pump gas on the street for probablly 15k miles on my 7 bolt after my 50 trim. The car went 12.1 on the 7 bolt setup with the stock gasket and studs with 22psi of boost. It never blew or had any problems at all..

I used a Cometic gasket and the shop I work at we always spray our head gaskets wtih copper spray. The shit is like glue... I sprayed the gasket layed it on my 6 bolt block then put the head on. I had to quickly lift the head to shift it around the dowels and it didn't wanna come off teh copper spray cause it's so sticky. It moved and sat down and stuck there. Honestly that stuff seals the gasket so well it's amazing. The engines we build always use copper spray on the stock or aftermakret gasket (mostly hondas...) and they never blow. I wouldn't assemble a head/block without the spray after seeing it and using it myself,...

 

[Boosted4]

Copper spray is basically to add a slight coating of maluable sealant. The copper is so fine and soft that it will squish around and give alittle bit of a extra seal around the fire rings for example. Well, really any beaded spot. When you are dealing with a cast iron block and an aluminum head... The expansion characteristics are going to be different. This could potentially leave gaps. Also just the moving around itself and the distortion created is going to require some sort of sealing help. This is why HKS uses the silicone based top layer on their gaskets. (Spoke with the techs several times about this)

Other people just bolt the gasket down dry and call it a day. Like I said, this is what I have been having good luck with.

Just as a side note: I have been using the copper sprayed gasket (both sides, about 3 coats) all season with NO head gasket concerns. Big whoop right. How many people on here have experience with 45psi and damn near 1000 crank horse.

I am not saying that I am totally right and any thing else is wrong, but you might want to listen, considering that most people that are where I am will just let you figure it out for your self. I know... I was in that spot at one point!

Jake

Good post. I as well use the copper spray. I just use a light coat on both sides of the gasket. Never had a problem. AMS uses it on every car that gets a metal gasket at their shop. Do what you want, but like topstreet said. who are you going to listen to? the guys going 13's or the ones making single digits. I'm not saying everybody uses the spray, but personally, I haven't met anybody thats going fast that thinks it a bad idea, and obviously if it holds 9 second passes, its not going anywhere on your high 12 second car.

 

[turbo addict]

Lol, you def dont have a pic of Rau spraying copper gasket maker on his gasket!

Really? I seriously don't? No way.....you MUST be right.....

What's going on in these pictures then??!!

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[GVR4592]

Must be photshopped

 

[Street Surgeon]

SWEEEEEEEEEEEEET JUSTICE HAS BEEN SERVED!!!! Oh man, your honor... I rest my case

Really? I seriously don't? No way.....you MUST be right.....

What's going on in these pictures then??!!

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[topstreet]

What's going on in these pictures then??!!

He was tagging it. Gang related stuff....

 

[topstreet]

In all seriousness... I think that this just shows it works for some and not using it works for others. I think that is a well made point.

 

[turbo addict]

I don't care if people use it or not, I know of people that have had good luck either way, I will on my 2.3 build, but don't have it on my mirage turbo. I am not a dick, I just do not like being called a liar! I just try to help people when I can, from my experience working on my and my friends cars.

 

[jibberishballr]

Well I'm going with the copper spray. Studs will be here tomorrow. Hope to have the car done by Friday.

 

[Boosted4]

Well I'm going with the copper spray. Studs will be here tomorrow. Hope to have the car done by Friday.

just dont go overboard on the spray ... all i did was lightly coat each side of the gasket just to seal imperfections, but how much your use is up to you.