Capabilities of this setup (common combo)

[turboglenn]

The motor i recently built seems to be a very common combination being that i've found several threads of other's building the same engine since I built mine and we all seem to have very low power goals for it (4 - 500 range) and it seems we're all overbuilding for a nice fat safety margin (or at least I am). Since my new block is finally proven reliable and fully broken in I've decided it's time to start playing with the N20 and tuning for the most HP i can pull on e85 and my current turbo) since money has me too tight to buy the turbo i want and i've got a full tank of silly gas i'm going to play a little and would like to get a good size blast from the old juice before i run it out on 35 shots to spool the turbo :.

Anyway.. nitrous aside or included here's the combo, I am curious to know what this bottom end is able to hold reliably. Both in terms of RPM and HP. So if for some reason i decide to get silly with the boost or n20 jetting I'll have a predetermined limit in my head to start. and something to dream towards maybe

6 bolt block, bored .020 over with Wiseco 9:1 pistons and eagle H beam rods. The head is stock with the exception of some BC springs and retainers and a 264/272 cam combo. The head is held on with ARP studs and i'm running OEM main bolts (the eagle rods all have ARP's as everyone probably already knows I'm working with a 1g manifold but that's as far as I want to get into the unduction system. But would like to know what horse power level and RPM this combination will with-stand if I were to use it as a road race motor where i'm in said horse power range for extended periods of time how much horsies would she take for say a full on top gear pull.

I"m guessing in the 650 area and i honestly haven't even checked the "claims" of the manufacturer as i'd rather hear rea world experiences, so lets here your opinion!

I don't want this to be a bench racing thread so 1/4 mile times and such should probably be excluded, but since this combo is so popular it would be nice to have archived at least for people building in the future with a certain HP goal in mind or just considering this same combo.

 

[toofast82]

I'd say 650ish sounds pretty reasonable. With the springs and retainers, you should be able to spin pretty high. What are the capacities of the stock main bolts?

 

[Zex4g63]

Bottom end seems fine. From what I've seen of BC's springs after a few thousand miles I'd be inclined to replace them with something else......

 

[91tizzy]

Bottom end seems fine. From what I've seen of BC's springs after a few thousand miles I'd be inclined to replace them with something else......

Care to elaborate?

 

[toofast82]

From what I've seen of BC's springs after a few thousand miles I'd be inclined to replace them with something else......

Id like to hear some more about this as well. I have heard that they may not be the best choice in the 9-10k range though.

 

[turboglenn]

I knew BC weren't the best but from seeing them long term in a friends car i felt they would fit my needs. My car is a DD and doestn' get revved much above 8k as it just isn't making power after that. The only set i know enough about to make a statement on the car i just mentionedand he has had them for roughly 12k miles or so. I know there's a lot of variable involved besides the springs but his motor still seems to happily rev out to damn near 9k RPM if you don't watch it to shift fast enough from 1st to 2nd.

I just couldn't afford the gool ole bee hives, as bad as i wanted them it just wasn't in the budget

 

[99gst_racer]

I think the weak point in that rod and piston combo is the wrist pins. Hence the reason behind Wiseco introducing the HD series. But I don't know the limits of the sytandard Wiseco pins. I've heard of people having issues with them flexing and eventually failing, but I can't remember where I read about it.

Eagle claims their 4G63 H-beam rods are good up to 1000 crank HP, but I don't know anyone that has backed that claim with their own engine.

I use the same combo as you, Glenn, and I plan to be in the 6xx WHP range this summer. Hopefully it all holds together (I'm not too worried, though).

 

[daren_p]

Eagle claims their 4G63 H-beam rods are good up to 1000 crank HP, but I don't know anyone that has backed that claim with their own engine.

Wasn't Tim Zimmer running the Eagle H-beams? He was defently backing their claims, if he was.

 

[99gst_racer]

Wasn't Tim Zimmer running the Eagle H-beams? He was defently backing their claims, if he was.

He's got Grodens in his profile now. But if he made his posted dyno numbers on Eagles, then that's definitely putting them to work.

 

[daren_p]

He's got Grodens in his profile now. But if he made his posted dyno numbers on Eagles, then that's definitely putting them to work.

Ya, he defently wasn't running the Grodens before. I know they were a "cheeper"/common rod he was running before (becuase I was impressed with the abuse they took) & I'm pretty sure they were the Eagles. I'm sure he'll chime in here eventually

 

[turboglenn]

I think the weak point in that rod and piston combo is the wrist pins. Hence the reason behind Wiseco introducing the HD series. But I don't know the limits of the sytandard Wiseco pins. I've heard of people having issues with them flexing and eventually failing, but I can't remember where I read about it.

Eagle claims their 4G63 H-beam rods are good up to 1000 crank HP, but I don't know anyone that has backed that claim with their own engine.

I use the same combo as you, Glenn, and I plan to be in the 6xx WHP range this summer. Hopefully it all holds together (I'm not too worried, though).

HMmm.. I wonder if i have the "HD" versions? I just got them recently, but i would have to look and see. Is there a certain model # for the pin or piston set with the stronger pins?

I know the ones that i put in are THICK, they have at least 1/4 inch walls on them, probably closer to 5/16ths or more. As for the rods, if they are claiming 1000, i know i'll never be anywhere near that so that's plenty of a safety margin in my book. A friend of mine broke 2 JE's at their wrist pin at just a tad over 550 AWHP, and on 2 different occasions (both times the #1 piston at the wrist pin is where they let go) He was using the same eagle H beam rods and they held up great except where the pistons hit them anyway !

I'm thinking that his failures were either because of massive detonation or the large amounts of spray he was using. When i went through his ECU i found 55 degrees of timing under 30psi at a tad over 7500RPM, it looked like the tuner never touched the cell, that's why i can't decide what caused the failure on his car. The 550 - 600 range is a realm I might step into with my nitrouse this summer (maybe a 125 - 150 shot) and that's a lot of the reason i'm questioning this setups capability even though my turbo isn't capable of pushing it past the stock blocks limits really. I just dont want to start snapping wristpins out of the piston like my buddy was doing to the JE's

 

[99gst_racer]

Glenn, measure the wall thickness on your pins. The HD's are made of tool steel and have a .225" wall thickness.

The HD's have completely different part numbers than the regular Wisecos. What part number did you order?

 

[turboglenn]

Glenn, measure the wall thickness on your pins. The HD's are made of tool steel and have a .225" wall thickness.

The HD's have completely different part numbers than the regular Wisecos. What part number did you order?

Well, measuring might be a bit hard with the engine being in the car running As for what i ordered, honestly i just got the wiseco 9:1 forged pistons with the black lining on the skirts. The part number on the box is K560M855 - I know the last 3 digits are bore size in MM but i don't know how to read the rest of it.

The ring kit is labeled 8550XX and i THINK the wrist pin part number ( if i'm reading the box correctly as to what was inside ) is CW21 but for some reason i think that's the circlip number for the pins then there's an " S624" that i don't know what is being reffered to by it.

Then there's a number exactly as follows without the quotes "090508/m/m/6996" Then there's the number 355 written on the box by hand under the part #'s and the description is "Mits turbo dish -10cc 1.378 X85.5" (specs)

hoipefully something can be determined by that...... And if i do have the "weaker wrist pins" At what point do you think they should become a concern as far as HP or an RPM range that starts to become iffy?

 

[99gst_racer]

Oops, I didn't know your engine was already assembled. Yeah, the K560 kit will come with the standard pins.

I'll do some digging tonight and see if I can come up with some info regarding the limits of the standard Wiseco wrist pin.

 

[andy4g63]

And yes, Tim Zimmer AKA twicks69 was running Ross pistons on Eagle rods and he made 766WHP.

He is the only one, that really pushed them to the limit...

 

[squeak10686]

In the up coming month or so I should see how well eagles hold up to 700+HP.
Andrew.

 

[twicks69]

Sorry guys, I didn't find this thread until now, otherwise I would have chimed in earlier on....

The old setup ran 766AWHP/713TQ with the GT4088R on the Eagle H-beam and Ross combo.

The details were off-the-shelf 7-bolt Eagle H-beam rods, FFWD 7-bolt stroker 9.0:1 pistons with coatings, and then standard thin-wall 23mm wristpins. They were not the HD pins. I also used Ross piston rings.

The setup handled 1000HP no problem. Just have a damn good tune, and it is possible to repeat with the proper setup.


The new setup is a custom 7-bolt Groden aluminum rod, custom CP pistons, 23mm HD 0.225"-thick tool steel pins, wire locks, and a stock 7-bolt 2.4L crank. The rods use 7/16" ARP L19 hardware. The turbo is now the Borg Warner.

I know that the old setup would have handled 800-825AWHP if the turbo had not failed. 48-50psi on VP Q16 would have done it all day.

 

[toofast82]

I know that the old setup would have handled 800-825AWHP if the turbo had not failed. 48-50psi on VP Q16 would have done it all day.

Curious what kind of timing you run at something as high as 48-50psi?

 

[twicks69]

Also, the rods are still in great shape after 3 years, and are now in a different motor, along with the pistons. The pins were still perfect as well.

Unfortunately, I did bend my crank 0.013" out-of-straight which chewed out my inner main bearings. This was due to the fact that I was running a heavily cut crank. It was actually #001 from Darren at FFWD; meaning that it was the first 7-bolt 2.4L crank he had butchered. It was around 7-8 pounds lighter than stock, leading to the decrease in structural integrity and the increase in torsional flexing that was the cause of the bearing wear from extremely high boost and high rpms.

The crank is great for an application running 25-35psi and 8000rpm on a 2.3L, but you are risking it after that. There was just too much force on the crank from torsional flex because of the rod angle, boost and rpms I was running.

This is the reason I have changed to a completely stock 7-bolt 2.4L crank for the new setup.

 

[twicks69]

Curious what kind of timing you run at something as high as 48-50psi?

13 degrees at 46psi, 10 degrees at 51psi, and 7 degrees at 55psi on VP Q16 race fuel.
17 degrees at 46psi, 13 degrees at 51psi, and 10 degrees at 55psi on VP Import race fuel.