Budget Rebuild thoughts/suggestions

[GPLaserRS]

I have a 1G 6 bolt motor that I'm trying to rebuild on somewhat of a budget, I've got most of what I need to finish. I'm looking for anybody to chime in if you think I'm missing anything, do something different, and suggest someplace to get the machine work done. Let me give a little background on the block I'm using; 6 Bolt motor with less than 60,000 miles on it, BS belt broke and caused the timing to jump and the valves bang into the pistons. Put the motor on an engine stand and it's been there ever since (about 6 yrs now). Anyways, here's what I've been hoarding/stockpiling for a rebuild so far -

2G pistons (complete with pins and rings)
King rod & main bearings
BSE kit
3G lifters
Nitrited I/E valves
EVO VIII valve springs and retainers
Full gasket set
MLS head gasket
Mitsubishi hydraulic tensioner and pulleys

Things I still need -

ARP rod/cam/main/head hardware
Kevlar t-belt
Bronze valve guides

Machine work -

Hot tank the block
Deck the block
Valves lapped
Valve ports reground
Deck the head
Machine the rods for the pistons
Rear balance shaft turned down

Let me know what any of you think?

 

[H@xtGSX]

If you're going to get rid of the balance shafts, might as well have the oil holes on the shaft bearings welded shut. I think I would trust a weld more than a sleeve to block it off effectively. Also, people may say that a 5 angle valve grind and matching grind on the seats is enough, but I have personally found time and time again that hand lapping the valves in to the specific seat it is going to be used in is going to be a much more effective seal than just the machining can provide. I use the Norton Diamond lapping compound from fine to ultra fine on my valves. The lowest psi piston I have after the last rebuild is 174 psi, and that was with a few fairly rough looking seats when I started. When you finish with the ultra fine compound, the seat and valve will have a mirror finish on them and be as tightly sealed as you could ask for. It is good stuff.

 

[BogusSVO]

ok lets see here

2G pistons (complete with pins and rings) IMHO its a waste of money, by the time you deck the block and mill the head , the CR will be higher

King rod & main bearings Good choice
BSE kit
3G lifters
Nitrited I/E valves
EVO VIII valve springs and retainers Sorry not an upgrade, get a set of BC1100 or manley singles w/ stock retainers, you will be better off
Full gasket set
MLS head gasketBlock will need decked if you use this
Mitsubishi hydraulic tensioner and pulleys

Things I still need -

ARP rod/cam/main/head hardware Head studs are a yes, time you have the 1g rods resized for the 2g wrist pins, and buy the ARP rod bolts and have the big end resized, you could have bought eagle H beams. Now on the mains not a bad idea, but not needed, you will have to have the line bore checked and maybe a line hone done.
Kevlar t-belt From the rest of your build list, not needed, OE will be fine
Bronze guides Not needed untill over 25+ psi of boost

H@xtGSX... the seats will have to be cut when the guides are charged, the centerline of the guide will be changed to the index of the valve seat.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341218-how-change-valve-guides-4g63t-head.html


http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...2-evo-viii-stock-dsm-manley-brian-crower.html


Now OP it looks like you are wanting to run mainly stock parts, so sell off the 2G pistons and get a box of 1g.

Machine work -

Hot tank the block have new freeze plugs installed and the oil galleys removed, cost to clean the block appox $40
Deck the block Cost appox $60
Valves lapped Should be part of the Valve job
Valve ports regroundPart of the valve job, BTW not ports but the valve seats
Deck the head Check what equipment this will be done with , No belt surfacers, cost appox $50
Machine the rods for the pistons Cost will be from $15-$25 per rod
Rear balance shaft turned down someone sells theses, Buscher?


Now what you forgot
R&R Guides (If you still go bronze) $5 per guide changed
Resize big end of rod & Install ARP rod bolts $15-$20 per rod
Polish crank $75
Balance rotating assembly $225

Prices can and will vary from shop to shop and region to region. The prices I posted are the avarage in my area.

 

[H@xtGSX]

I realize the angle would have to be accounted for on both parts, I am just stating the absolute best way I have found to get them to mate perfectly once machined. If you're going to rebuild it, you might as well make those suckers match as tight as you can feasibly get them to, and that ultra fine compound with a slow hand lap is the best way I have seen, ever.

Totally agree with you though... Everything you mentioned is valid. The only thing I would caution him away from is the damn MLS gasket. Yes, I would have both head and block decked, but even with both decked, I *hate* MLS gaskets. They leave absolutely no margin of error, and this is 2 entirely different metals we are working with. I would recommend a good composite gasket over an MLS any day of the week.

 

[GPLaserRS]

H@xtGSX, is a composite gasket good for higher boost? I always thought MLS was the way to go, I don't plan on going crazy on the boost. My future turbo plans wouldn't be any bigger than an HTA68, and I have 16G waiting to go on once the engine is put back together.

BogusSVO, I gotta ask, how much of a bump in CR should I expect if I stick with the 2G pistons? I guess scoring a set of 1G pistons wouldn't be too hard. With the MLS gasket won't that take up some of the thickness removed from the machine so the CR won't go up too much? I agree with skipping the ARP main bolts, I don't want to have the line hone done.

 

[H@xtGSX]

I have a Felpro composite gasket in mine, and run 22-24 psi on it daily with a MHI 18g. It has had no issues what so ever. The last rebuild I did, only the head was milled flat, and it was only about 1/5000th off. Nothing to the block. I have no idea if the block top is straight, honestly, but with a composite gasket it doesn't really make any difference if it is a little off. It will take up the slack and seal just fine anyhow. An MLS under the same conditions probably wouldn't. I have also helped work on a 94 Supra that was pushing 900 hp, also running Felpro composite gaskets, and they are one of the few things that didn't break......... I am starting to feel like Felpro should be paying me a commission today. This is the 3rd thread I have praised the Felpro gasket in just today.

The compression ratio increase Bogus was talking about is that the 2g pistons are higher compression stock than the 1g pistons. At minimum, you're looking at about 8.2:1, but with machining it'll be likely closer to 8.5 to 8.6:1... The MLS won't take out much height. It will be comparable to a composite once torqued.

 

[GPLaserRS]

Alright, so you recommend just the standard $30 Felpro gasket, and maybe spray some Permatex copper on it and seal it up? That's fine with me, I have 2 MLS gaskets I can sell that can pay for the bits I haven't picked up yet. As for the compression ratio; I know the 1G is 7.8:1 and the 2G is 8.5:1, so after the block and/or head are decked (if necessary) the 1G pistons will be closer to 8.X:1? So if I were to stick with the 2G pistons I'd be looking at a CR close to 9.0-9.2 :1, which would be great for off boost torque but would be a little aggressive in terms of how I'd need to have it tuned to avoid detonation due to timing? Speaking of timing, the oil pump/front case has relatively low miles (less than 60,000) can I just check its tolerances and reuse it or just throw a fresh one on there? Thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions.

 

[H@xtGSX]

The MLS vs. Composite is really personal preference. They both work well, I personally just like the fact that the composite will still seal if the surface isn't absolutely perfect.

You are right on the compression. For some reason I was thinking 8.2:1 when I posted that... Yes, it'll be closer to 9:1, which will be good for low end, but you will be fighting detonation with pump gas if you turn the pressure up on it. Mine is decked and runs closer to 9:1 than stock does, and I do get more knock than I would like if I floor it and it gets up to that 22+ psi range. I use a water injection system to help calm that down some. Still, it will get up and go in a hurry with the extra compression, though I am not sure what the difference is compared to a stock motor. I had to rebuild my motor when I bought the car, so I have never driven a purely stock motor before.

The oil pump is your call if you know what you're looking at. The common answer is change it now while you have it torn down and you won't have to worry about it later. I agree with that, but am a hypocrite... I checked mine out, and everything was still in good condition when I rebuilt, so I just put it back in. They run around $200, which was an added expense I couldn't really afford at the time. If you have the cash though, the smart thing to do would be to put in a new one.

 

[JacksonAuto]

Bogus pretty much hit it on the head. 2g pistons are not much of an upgrade, and not very cost effective. Plus in the end you're still stuck with OEM parts. Lapping the valves with some fine lapping compound is not the same as having a real valve job done. Yes, they'll seal and run fine if there isn't too much wear on the valves and seats, but you wont pick up much performance. Plus like Bogus said if you replace the guides you have to go with a bigger valve and cut the seats to fit them.

What are your plans/goals for the car? Just a daily driver or do you plan on turning up the boost and beating on it?

 

[H@xtGSX]

I meant lapping them in after the valve job. That ultra fine compound will make a good valve job great. It may be extraneous, depending on the machining, but I love the stuff. It makes a very tight seal.

...and if he already has the pistons, then going for Mahle's or Ross's isn't really keeping a low budget. They are at least a step up from the 1g pistons, even if it isn't a huge step.

 

[JacksonAuto]

I meant lapping them in after the valve job. That ultra fine compound will make a good valve job great. It may be extraneous, depending on the machining, but I love the stuff. It makes a very tight seal.

Absolutely. It's part of a valve job, not a replacement for one. We hand-lap the valves in all the heads we do.

 

[GPLaserRS]

What are your plans/goals for the car? Just a daily driver or do you plan on turning up the boost and beating on it?

My plans are for it to be a fun DD/occasional autocross/rallycross, I while the I have the engine out I am wiring in a 98/99 flashable ecu and once I get the engine back in I'll be installing a s16g along with 560cc from an EVO. Nothing crazy right now I guess, but in the future I'd like to turn up the wick. As for the 2G pistons; I've had them for a while and figured if I needed to rebuild the engine then why not use them? The off boost response would be better than stock if I use them (the 2G pistons), and I'm trying to keep costs down. I would love to afford aftermarket internals, but my budget doesn't allow for it right now. In the future I plan to build an old engine I have in the garage that has rod knock into a 2.1 w/ forged internals, but for now stock parts at moderate boost levels on a budget

 

[BogusSVO]

With out taking measurements of a buch of things, figuring your CR is a guess.

Some things are givens, bore and stroke. Along with the volume of the HG

But the head needs to be CC, along with measuring the piston to deck clearance.

V1+V2+V3+V4+V5/V1+V2+V3+V4 = CR

V1 = Head CC
V2 = HG CC
V3= Piston to Deck CC
V4 = Piston CC (+ for dish, - for dome)
V5 = Cylinder CC ( Bore/Stroke form BDC- TDC)