Borg Warner S200 (Bullseye S256) Review

[ceedawg]

More than one person has discussed the limitations of the .55 A/R bolt on housing before. I wish you the best of luck but by that point backpressure in the housing is something to seriously consider.
If you feel up to it, get some logs before and while you're going to try a "go for broke" dyno run to compare VE estimations and see just how much you're hurting.

I agree 100%.

 

[95GSXBLUR]

Are you guys suggesting I run it @ under 500 whp and less than 30psi?

 

[2gGSX]

Exhaust flow out of the engine at these power levels is going to exceed the flow capacity of the .55 A/R turbine housing--thus the backpressure. When this happens, engine VE decreases and you will begin to lose potential airflow/power.

I have no idea how much power you'll make at what boost, but the bolt on housing is really going to start limiting your power making potential by the time you're around 500 whp if not before. This isn't to say you can't make 500 whp, just that the car will need more boost than if you were to run a more free-flowing exhaust housing.

 

[1992awdlaser]

Exhaust flow out of the engine at these power levels is going to exceed the flow capacity of the .55 A/R turbine housing--thus the backpressure. When this happens, engine VE decreases and you will begin to lose potential airflow/power.

I have no idea how much power you'll make at what boost, but the bolt on housing is really going to start limiting your power making potential by the time you're around 500 whp if not before.

Don't forget that the backpressure is going to cause a lot more heat than a t3 housing. This heat is not only going to be in the turbine housing but also the head and exhaust valves. This is going to increase the chance of knock thus further limiting the potential of this turbo.

 

[95GSXBLUR]

Ok - this is how I see it.

Probably I'll keep it mildly tuned... I will also be running E85, which operates far cooler than Gas and it's anti-knock also far exceeds gasoline. so there are two positives on my side.

I've been through a couple motors on this car and I've become extremely cautious. - ESPECIALLY since this motor went in.. that's a WHOLE OTHER story. anyway... I will do the VE comparisons.. you should be able to "feel" the car getting slower when it hits that point... as well as the # comparisons via DSMLink and Dyno feedback.

I'm going to use it for what it's worth... then when I can afford the TiAL44, Mani, housing, and whatever else I need to switch (along with the cash I get from selling the old stuff).. And I'll go from there.

Different subject - Did you guys notice there is a oil feed restrictor actually build in to the center section? It's a gotta be a .08 hole not the .035BBs but actually in the casting of the center there is a small restrictor for the oil...

So when you're using that flange you're actually doubling up that restrictor? How good is that for oil flow.. etc? I think I'm just going to run a regular -4an fitting for the feed.. especially since it's build right in.. I've noticed that on mitsu turbos as well.

lemme know you're guys thoughts!

 

[1992awdlaser]

Probably I'll keep it mildly tuned... I will also be running E85, which operates far cooler than Gas

I don't think that is true. But, E85 is comparable to 100 octane fuel so it will help with knock some. You are still going to be limited verse using E85 with a t3 housing.

 

[95GSXBLUR]

And some quick crappy install shots:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[95GSXBLUR]

I've never had the car @ 500whp before... sooo I guess I'll worry about it's limits when I come to them.. I'll just enjoy the spool for now.


Doesn't ethanol (alcohol base) operate colder than gasoline?

 

[We're on Boost]

Doesn't ethanol (alcohol base) operate colder than gasoline?

Sure does. Here's how it goes:

Heat of vaporization:
gasoline ~ 900 BTU per gallon
ethanol ~ 2378 BTU per gallon
methanol ~ 3340 BTU per gallon
water ~~~7000 BTU per gallon!

So, it doesn't cool as much as methanol, but it cools a heck of a lot more than gasoline!

Looks like AWDer is making about 500 awhp on e85, but he is using an external 38mm wastegate on the O2 which probably helps. By the way, as far as I know, his mod list is pretty up-to-date and accurate as posted in his profile. Do I have that right Josh?

Gary

 

[2gGSX]

Ok - this is how I see it.

Probably I'll keep it mildly tuned... I will also be running E85, which operates far cooler than Gas and it's anti-knock also far exceeds gasoline. so there are two positives on my side.

E85 does have its limits just like any fuel. While this will no doubt help you, only experience will tell if it is actually enough help.

I've been through a couple motors on this car and I've become extremely cautious. - ESPECIALLY since this motor went in.. that's a WHOLE OTHER story. anyway... I will do the VE comparisons.. you should be able to "feel" the car getting slower when it hits that point... as well as the # comparisons via DSMLink and Dyno feedback.

A quick way to check is to look at the Airflow/Rev curve and how much it drops, although if you want to single out the turbine housing you better rule everything on the intake side out.

Different subject - Did you guys notice there is a oil feed restrictor actually build in to the center section? It's a gotta be a .08 hole not the .035BBs but actually in the casting of the center there is a small restrictor for the oil...

So when you're using that flange you're actually doubling up that restrictor? How good is that for oil flow.. etc? I think I'm just going to run a regular -4an fitting for the feed.. especially since it's build right in.. I've noticed that on mitsu turbos as well.

I actually didn't notice this, but I was told to run the flange/restrictor by David at Bullseye so I did. In the end, the pressure/flow through the system and CHRA will be limited by the smallest passage, so running the restrictor flange AND "built in" restrictor will not hurt you by any means. Personally I got it because I was too lazy to find a 1/4" BPT inverted flare fitting.

 

[95GSXBLUR]

I just want this turbo to last a long time. I'll check out that flange setup when it gets here today - my 1/4" -4an fitting threaded right in though.

Yeah, water/meth is also an option down the road. Sometimes it's hard to weigh the mod/cost. I'm getting tired of spending money on this car... that's why I'd like a reliable setup.

 

[AWDer]

Looks like AWDer is making about 500 awhp on e85, but he is using an external 38mm wastegate on the O2 which probably helps. By the way, as far as I know, his mod list is pretty up-to-date and accurate as posted in his profile. Do I have that right Josh?

Gary

It is almost completely accurate, although I am not running water injection anymore. I just did not see any benefit with it after E85. This turbo is efficient enough at 30+ PSI. The evo3 liked running injection with E85 though. I will try and update it more completely later today.

Josh

 

[Simpleman1]

What is the side of the S256 ET internally gated? That's what I ordered. The reason being is that I don't have any more money to spare for an external waste gate and new mounting for it. Thanks

 

[Simpleman1]

What is the down side of the S256 ET internally gated? That's what I ordered. The reason being is that I don't have any more money to spare for an external waste gate and new mounting for it. Thanks

 

[We're on Boost]

What is the down side of the S256 ET internally gated? That's what I ordered. The reason being is that I don't have any more money to spare for an external waste gate and new mounting for it. Thanks

Somebody who's actually run one on an S256 could probably tell you better than me, but I'll throw in my 10 cents.

You could have either blow-open or the opposite, which is creep. Actually you could have both.
Blow-open: it might open at the right boost, but once it opens the actuator kinda loses control of it and can't modulate the position properly, so you have boost fall-off because the gate just kind of blows way open.
Creep: It opens but the wastegate isn't big enough to keep up with what your engine is putting out so more exhaust is forced through the turbine than what you want causing more boost, also high back-pressure. Making the wastegate and flapper bigger makes it more prone to blow-open because it is even harder for the actuator to control it. One reason for this control problem is that the internal gate is a rotating gate operated by a linear actuator. Engineering nightmare. Whereas the external gates are pure linear devices - the valve and the actuator both move together in a straight line.

Usually the internal gate turbines use a stock style dump that puts the wastegate exhaust back into the main exhaust only a few inches downstream, in the O2 housing. It would be better (less backpressure on the engine and turbine) if you could just dump it to the air as is usually done with an external gate. (Anybody ever have a fire this way? ) I think a dump that goes back into the downpipe about 1 or 2 feet from the turbine outlet would be ok provided that the downpipe goes up about a half inch in diameter right where the dump goes into it. How do you say? custom and expensive.

Remember that your wastegate and dump tube are your "other" exhaust system. If it is plenty big and flows nicely, it will help you avoid excessive back pressure on the engine and turbine. You can do this with an external and still have good control.

Check out this thread on internally gated turbos tested on the dyno. Pretty interesting because they all include boost plots. The tester complains incessantly about the internal gates. Mostly they start out with a big spike, then they have massive blow-open, then they gradually recover just about the time you get to redline. Not very good. The only ones in the test that work decent at all are the mitsubishi ones, as I remember. I don't think they tested any PT&E turbos. The PT&E internal gates might be decent, people seem to have pretty good results with them.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-turbo-system-intercooler/208481-internally-gated-turbos-tested-dyno.html

Also check out what Robert @ FP says about how he "optimized" the internal gate on the FP TD06SL2-18g turbo. This whole thread is good, internal gate stuff mostly in posts 11, 12, and 13.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/vendor-announcements/267729-forced-performance-td06sl2-18g-debut.html

If you convert your internal gate to external on the O2 someday, think about porting the passage to make it bigger - find out from somebody how much metal you can remove safely without wrecking the casting. Might also be able to weld the thing shut and put the external gate on the manifold. Or just buy a new turbine housing when the time comes.

Gary

 

[Simpleman1]

I was warned about the flapper being blown open at high pressure, but the money is tight like I mentioned. I will do the EWG set-up when I have the extra $$. Thanks for your info Gary.

 

[We're on Boost]

When the time comes you might want to think about switching to a twin scroll turbine housing and manifold. That would be if you have, like, LOTS of money lying around you know? Right now I don't even know if you could buy a manifold to do that, like 2g says. But if you could it would probably be a good way to go. According to Geoff at Full Race, the turbine wheel in your turbo was actually designed for twin scroll use.

An option that is available now is the turbine housing that AGP designed for the S256. It's a .63 a/r housing, T3 inlet, T31 4-bolt outlet, external wastegate only. The AGP housing was designed really for the SRT4 kits that they sell and they had in mind fitting the turbo in without denting the firewall. So you would have to somehow check out how the positioning would come out on a DSM. I think Kevin there would know, he drives a GVR4 Galant. That's still an expensive way to go because of all the conversion to T3. Would be a lot cheaper to just convert what you have now to external gate on the O2 housing.

Gary

 

[2gGSX]

There's other benefits to converting to a T3 setup as well. Also, Straight Line Specialties sells a twin scroll DSM T3 manifold. Only catch is that it's 1000 dollars.

 

[95GSXBLUR]

I bet the guys @ punishment are willing to fab something like that up... for Half the cost to boot.

 

[Simpleman1]

When the time comes you might want to think about switching to a twin scroll turbine housing and manifold. That would be if you have, like, LOTS of money lying around you know? Right now I don't even know if you could buy a manifold to do that, like 2g says. But if you could it would probably be a good way to go. According to Geoff at Full Race, the turbine wheel in your turbo was actually designed for twin scroll use.

An option that is available now is the turbine housing that AGP designed for the S256. It's a .63 a/r housing, T3 inlet, T31 4-bolt outlet, external wastegate only. The AGP housing was designed really for the SRT4 kits that they sell and they had in mind fitting the turbo in without denting the firewall. So you would have to somehow check out how the positioning would come out on a DSM. I think Kevin there would know, he drives a GVR4 Galant. That's still an expensive way to go because of all the conversion to T3. Would be a lot cheaper to just convert what you have now to external gate on the O2 housing.

Gary

Thank for the suggestions Gary, I will keep that in mind.

 

[95GSXBLUR]

finished Pic - just have to fix my trans leak and my power steering leak and she'll be ready to drive.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[me612]

Mine as of this afternoon. S362 .70AR T3 V-Band ehxuast side.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[goonie]

finished Pic - just have to fix my trans leak and my power steering leak and she'll be ready to drive.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

question about the install where did you connect the oil feed line?
at the head or the oil filter?
thanks.

 

[brute]

question about the install where did you connect the oil feed line?
at the head or the oil filter?
thanks.

It looks like he's using the oil filter tree.

 

[We're on Boost]

And some quick crappy install shots:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Scott, this pic isn't so crappy after all because it pretty well shows you have a lot of clearance between the compressor cover and the radiator. I think. Even the wastegate actuator fits in there with some room left over. What would you say for distance from the radiator back to the compressor cover, about 3 or 4 inches? Could you fit a stock cooling fan in there if the wastegate actuator wasn't there?

Gary