Best Built, most reliable N/A 420a for a DD?

[YTMNDVC]

My engine block has been completely destroyed from an ass of a mechanic, getting a used one thrown in for now to get to work, and im looking to find out what would be the best route to go for a built, naturally aspirated engine for daily driving. I'm looking into the porter's performance stage 2 engine for a good looking start: Porters Performance 420A (STAGE 2) Crate Motor

My main questions are, is running a built stage 2 non-turboed reliable? Is there something i'm missing where "oh you have to have a tarbo in a reinforced engine" or some quirk? Would buying the parts individually and a fresh block be cheaper? Over time i'll be replacing the transmission, suspension, everything on this car to have it last me a long time. I'm looking to get the most performance out of the 420a, but without throwing any reliability out the window. I'm assuming I leave the intake alone, no boring, 2.5' exhaust, MSD ignition kit, NGK plugs, royal purple oil 10-W40 (florida), K&N intake & oil filter, assuming i use all this as my usual ritual changing parts, I think i'd have all my bases covered. What in everyones opinion is the best route for a reliable 420a? Thank you for your time, im just trying to cover all my bases here so I can stay out of this rut i've been in.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

I'm looking into the porter's performance stage 2 engine for a good looking start: Porters Performance 420A (STAGE 2) Crate Motor

My main questions are, is running a built stage 2 non-turboed reliable?

I have no idea. Terms like "stage 2" are meaningless. I've never heard of Porters Performance before and they don't list some crucial information in their product listings. I'm sure a properly built engine will be reliable in any case, but 9.5:1 or 10.5:1 CR pistons would be a much better idea than 8.8:1 or lower CR pistons.

Is there something i'm missing where "oh you have to have a tarbo in a reinforced engine" or some quirk?

What's a tarbo?

Would buying the parts individually and a fresh block be cheaper?

Yes, always. I don't know what you mean by a "fresh block," but machining a used block and assembling the components will be much cheaper. I, personally, wouldn't do it any other way.

 

[Fotowntalon]

"Best Built, most reliable N/A 420a for a DD?"
Son you have a lot to learn.... oh wait never mind I like this one better, goes something like "You cant just jump in lions cage cause you think you can box" or something like that...
420a NA DD go hand and hand, but if you want some power out of your motor you better start searching around, this isnt a buy parts bolt on turbo scene.

To help answer some questions "built stage 2 non-turboed reliable" as Velocita said, wtf is this?

"I'm assuming I leave the intake alone, no boring" intake is performance 101, as far as boring, well you need to describe what your performance goals are.

Also as Velocita said, staying NA and going lower CR (compression ratio) is ass backwards. You want at least 9.6 (stock CR) most Na re builders go 10.5 or high (if you feel like getting ballsy)

 

[H4G64T]

I rebuilt my 420A with one of those eBay rebuild kits. I even boosted it for awhile at 8 psi and then converted it back to N/A for a daily driver. It has been well over 50K miles since doing this and the car still runs like a champ with near perfect compression. One of the only times I will endorse going the eBay route. I deliver pizzas in this car as well for extra cash, so it does see abuse.

 

[KazooGS-T]

Hmm... TO answer your question, yes, building your own engine (or having your machine shop assemble it for you) will be cheaper than buying that engine.

As for the intake talk, I believe you mean porting, not boring (which is what you'd do to the cylinder walls for oversize pistons, for example). NO you don't have to port, as well you don't need a turbocharger on a built engine. (Rather, you don't HAVE to have one, but can if that's what you want to do. That's the reason most people build their engine is for boost.)

Go with 10.5:1 or so compression ratio, get some n/a cams and aftermarket valve springs/retainers if you'd like. Should be somewhat peppy, better than stock for sure. Get an AF/X underdrive pulley, will be a big help in n/a seat of the pants feeling.

OH, one more thing, google Porter's Performance, they have some REALLY bad reviews for jerking people around and ripping them off. Best of luck!

 

[H4G64T]

This is the exact kit I bought: Eagle Talon 2.0 420A 16V Engine Rebuild Kit | eBay

Just make sure you get the right bearings, I had a hell of a time getting the proper ones, which required sending back two sets until they finally just gave me a set of the proper ones (they had to send me a set of Clevites because they did not have the right ones in whatever other brand they had, had to pay a little extra for them, but worth it).

 

[YTMNDVC]

whoa, sorry I wasn't on to reply to any of this, but performance-wise im not looking to do anything spectacular, sure to squeeze out a little more than stock, but not stepping into turbo kit territory, mainly just what I could get out of the engine itself, and what reinforced pistons, .20 overbore perhaps of the cylinders, but theres alot of sensitive work and tuning involved, so I may as well just go with stock size, reinforced heads, a built up valvetrain, shafts, etc.

Thank's for telling me to check out porter's Kazoo, looked like a decent deal for a fresh block but now I understand their shady and exactly what im trying to avoid, i'll probably just go with the route of buying my parts and having a shop throw them in since I dont have proper tools.

"Terms like "stage 2" are meaningless"
usually it means that parts are reinforced with bulkier ones.

And, by a fresh block, i mean one that is reworked from the beginning. I assume just throwing in a new laundry list of parts into a used block isn/t the brightest idea considering the alternatives and the amount of money I would be chucking into it.

for parts, I've tried to do the most research I can for what works best:
Eagle rods
Wiseco Pistons
PT cruiser rocker arms?
felpro thick steel headgasket
ARP studs
melling oil pump
stock injectors
pulley kits? anything to lessen stress

is there anything that can be done to better the tranny other than a completely new one? thank you everyone for your inputs!

 

[99eclipse420]

parts list for you

after market rods and pistons people have their own prefrences on brand.
apr head bolts
pt cruiser lifters
new valves
oil pump
all timing componets( tension-er belt ect.)
water pump
new gaskets
multi layer head gasket_ metal only metal
king or acl bearings (main and rod)
I know im forgetting one or 2 things
valve springs
valve seats
new fluids brake, coolant, oill trans all that good stuff
all new hoses, replacing every hose in the engine bay
and transmisson not that I know of other than rebuilding or new clutch, new slave cylinder, master cylinder, new clutch fluid,

 

[YTMNDVC]

thanks for the list, i'd ask opinions on UDP's but it seems like a pretty 50/50 debate, and a headache. Would putting in a transmission oil cooler be a smart move for reliability? what cam gears are well received? piece by piece, all in all, im just looking to make an indestructible 420a with everything renewed and the best it can be.

 

[KazooGS-T]

thanks for the list, i'd ask opinions on UDP's but it seems like a pretty 50/50 debate, and a headache. Would putting in a transmission oil cooler be a smart move for reliability? what cam gears are well received? piece by piece, all in all, im just looking to make an indestructible 420a with everything renewed and the best it can be.

The 420a doesn't have the same harmonic balancer issue that a 4g63 has. Get the AF/X underdrive pulley. WELLLLLLL worth the money, trust me.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

"Terms like "stage 2" are meaningless"
usually it means that parts are reinforced with bulkier ones.

No, it doesn't. And if it did, what does stage 1 mean? What about stage 3? It's just a marketing gimmick, and the definition (if any) varies wildly from vendor to vendor.

99eclipse420 gave you a pretty good starting point. If you're not going to build the engine yourself, ask your builder for suggestions and/or a list of anything else you'll need. There are a lot of smaller things (gaskets, freeze plugs, new TTY main bolts, etc.) that are easily overlooked when making a shopping list like this.

I can second KazooGS-T's comment about the AF/X UDP. It's a quality piece, but the company can be a bit difficult to deal with. If at all possible, scrounge the classifieds here, on 2GNT.com and on eBay for a used one.

 

[H4G64T]

I second the motion, well third it now, or maybe fourth it...I don't know. Stage is a "ricer" term in that it sounds real good and real awesome and says how bad-ass your car is, but largely it means nothing as a whole, if not just a definition for the progression of a part along a particular manufacturers product line.

For instance, Stage 0 can universally be known as stock. From there what is Stage 1? Take cams for example, Stage 2 may indicate a 272/272 combination to one company or a 272/264 combination...or is that Stage 1.5? Is 264/264 Stage 1? Is putting 1G cams in a 2G head Stage 1 or is Stage 0.5...if it is Stage 1, then does 264/264 become Stage 2 or Stage 1.5, and now is 272/272 a Stage 3 even if BC tells you it is Stage 2? It has no rhyme or reason, it truly means nothing, it just sounds cool.

 

[bullettdsm]

I'm looking into the porter's performance stage 2 engine for a good looking start: Porters Performance 420A (STAGE 2) Crate Motor{/quote]

I have GOT to start building and selling these things. $3300 for a rebuilt with no cams? Damn.

My main questions are, is running a built stage 2

Well, you already know.....

Would buying the parts individually and a fresh block be cheaper?

Clearly and you can choose the parts to your taste.

Over time i'll be replacing the transmission, suspension, everything on this car to have it last me a long time.

Tranny will do you fine. The weak point is the diff. Get a Quaife or at least get some diff pin savers.

I'm looking to get the most performance out of the 420a, but without throwing any reliability out the window.

I had my daily down to 13.9 in the quarter. I beat the ever livin' snot out of her and she never let me down. But you will have to learn Megasquirt to do that. Or you can bolt in the AFX ECU. I ran in the low 14's with that on.


IMO, higher comp JE's (10.5ish with a head shave to 11.0ish), Some Crower 2's (NA not the turbo grind), work the head, get an exhaust, UDP, port the stock intake and bolt at least a 57mm TB on (I would go 60mm), MS or AFX ECU, regular rebuild on the rest (don't get the Melling oil pump. Too many failures). That'll give you some pep in your step and be reliable as hell (if built correctly).

MB

 

[teklein]

I agree with all of the above.

I am on Megasquirt with a high compression built motor. 170whp/150wtq so far.

I drive it everyday and beat the crap out of it. It sees 7800+rpms multiple times a day.

Do it right and it will last forever.

 

[Fotowntalon]

The only debate on the UDP is from the average 4g63 coming in here talking about an engine he knows nothing about (obviously not referring to you Kazoo). If you can get an AFX UDP then all the power to you, but they are extremely hard to find, i say skip the headache and get a unorthodox racing pulley, they are just as good (tad bit more pricey).

You also mentioned something about "anything to lesson stress" I am assuming you mean shaving rotational mass. In that case look into getting a crank scrapper, will help some.

From how you are talking I think an AFX ECU would be perfect for you to handle all your tuning.

That and bullets list pretty much covers it.

 

[H4G64T]

The only debate on the UDP is from the average 4g63 coming in here talking about an engine he knows nothing about (obviously not referring to you Kazoo). If you can get an AFX UDP then all the power to you, but they are extremely hard to find, i say skip the headache and get a unorthodox racing pulley, they are just as good (tad bit more pricey).

You also mentioned something about "anything to lesson stress" I am assuming you mean shaving rotational mass. In that case look into getting a crank scrapper, will help some.

From how you are talking I think an AFX ECU would be perfect for you to handle all your tuning.

That and bullets list pretty much covers it.

 

[YTMNDVC]

Thank you for correcting me on my understanding of the term stage, from what ive gone by I thought stage 1 was stock, stage 2 had built rods and pistons, and stage 3 was with upper head work as well.

As far as my transmission goes, when I bought it, it shifted smooth, but the oil was brown and burnt. The mechanic said despite that, it looked fine, so the life of my tranny doesn't seem to be a problem for now. Would you guys reccomend I get it flushed? I hear three stories on flushing the transmission, either its a bad idea because it could loosen up grime that was covering a seal, more miles means higher risk (tranny probably has around 120k on it), and even that some mechanics wont warranty or even do it due to the risks.

And thank you Bullett for your input, this all really helps me out alot in terms of knowledge and the future of me and my car.