balance shaft issues.

[Perkul8r]

So with the weather getting nice I was finally getting to do my timing belt/water pump in my 96 TSI. I was doing pretty good today till I got the lower timing cover off.

When I pulled the cover off, I found the balance shaft belt was broke and just jammed in there. And when I went to turn the balance shaft, I had to use some leverage, not bad, but I couldn't turn it by hand. It does not feel as free as other ones I have messed with.

Now that I have freed up the balance shaft, it does turn ok, but still not by hand.

I have only had the car a little while. Bought it with a bad fuel pump. Replaced pump and the car ran. Only thing I seen that was odd when I started the car up before doing this tear down was that the oil pressure was either not working, or there was no pressure.

I have never encountered this problem, so kinda looking for advice on how to proceed. Do I just replace the belts and try it, or do I need to pull the motor and go into it.

 

[BogusSVO]

Pull the oil pan and inspect, along with the front case.

Sounds like you spun the front BS bearings, so a in car BSE will be a quick fix

 

[Perkul8r]

Pull the oil pan and inspect, along with the front case.

Sounds like you spun the front BS bearings, so a in car BSE will be a quick fix

Any advice on how to get the balance shafts out with the motor in the car? Last time I did one I used a cutting torch, but I dont have one available to me at home.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Not a whole lot I haven't see any pita without pulling the engine.

 

[Perkul8r]

Actually I found a great writeup on VFAQ for doing it in car.

Balance Shaft Eliminator Kit Install

Now my only problem is getting the work done . I dont have a garage so opening the motor up sucks. Hopefully the weather will cooperate.

 

[darknezz7]

Second thread in a week someone saying the balance shaft is hard to turn. Definitely going to eliminate with my build.

My moms 2003 KIA optima's crank sensor gave out and when I went in the balance shaft belt was shredded everywhere. Lucky in these situations the timing was not affected.

 

[Perkul8r]

I was able to find an oil pressure tester today and sure enough, no pressure. The gauge didn't even move. It didn't even get any oil into the tester. So I am ordering a BSE kit, but now worried about main and rod bearings. I dont know how long the car was like this.

 

[bucken13]

Wow bro I actually just encountered this 2mins ago while looking for a fuel rail spacer that just vanished into thin air while I was installing my injectors. I noticed the shreaded belt. Will there be any issue running the car with out the belt ?

 

[Perkul8r]

Wow bro I actually just encountered this 2mins ago while looking for a fuel rail spacer that just vanished into thin air while I was installing my injectors. I noticed the shreaded belt. Will there be any issue running the car with out the belt ?

If you look on here you will find multiple threads on leaving the belt off. Most of the threads will tell you that yes, running without the balance shaft belt is bad and will cause issues. However some have gotten away with it. It kinda depends on how much you wanna risk your motor.

Also, how did you notice the shredded belt? Seems like that would be a hard place to get the fuel rail spacer into.

 

[counti41]

there are two shafts that are timed together, one spins from using a belt from the crank and the other is timed to the oil pump gear and is driven by that oil pump gear. if you run without the belt the motor will shake itself apart, and it wil screw up shit inside the oil pump. both shafts have counterweights and spin in opposing directions and its this action that acts as a counterbalance for the engines crankshaft vibrations. only way to do it without the belt is to install a race balance shaft kit. dont be cheap or lazy it could cause you your entire engine...it sucks dong it in car but its doable. better and alot easier in a 1g than a 2g. ive done it without pulling the engine in both.

 

[bucken13]

there are two shafts that are timed together, one spins from using a belt from the crank and the other is timed to the oil pump gear and is driven by that oil pump gear. if you run without the belt the motor will shake itself apart, and it wil screw up shit inside the oil pump. both shafts have counterweights and spin in opposing directions and its this action that acts as a counterbalance for the engines crankshaft vibrations. only way to do it without the belt is to install a race balance shaft kit. dont be cheap or lazy it could cause you your entire engine...it sucks dong it in car but its doable. better and alot easier in a 1g than a 2g. ive done it without pulling the engine in both.

Will order the kit friday and do it asap. My car isnt seeing any milage other then some tuning for the new set up. Honestly by looking at the belt this wasnt a recent problem. So Worse case i do have a spare block i can swap in..

I Thougt i took at pic but you could see the belt in between the motor mount bracet and the t belt Only pic i have is of the belt after i pulled it out . Btw Never found that spacer Ordered a new on off ExtremePsi and RTV the other to.

 

[dharrison]

balance shaft elimination is the way to go!!!

 

[zedicus]

they are there for a reason. however in the right conditions they are safe to remove. if you are keeping a stock flywheel then removing them is not noticeable. if you are going with ultra light flywheel and crank pulley i would keep the ballance shafts. i kept them in my current 2g with a fidanza flywheel.

 

[boost97gst]

If you have a lightweight flywheel the balance shafts arent the problem, its the harmonic damper(crank pulley). A fluidampr is often recommended. Think about it: Those balance shafts are not directly connected to the crank. They wouldnt effect anything.
This topic was beat up not a few months ago on here.

If you do a rear BS delete you can simply cut the front belt. End of story. No harm. Upside? You dont have to worry about porting your OFH cause your oil pressure just went up. Downside? 5lbs of dead weight sitting in the front: the balance shaft.

If i were to do it in the car theres no way i would consider removing the front bs. Its pointless.


Edit: Missed a little something but my point still stands. I see it WAS your front. So you are looking at doing both front and rear. gonna be tough with it in the car. People have done it im sure.

 

[zedicus]

i didnt realize balance shafts were for crank vibration. we always associate them with harmonics resonance in motorcycles I4 engines. guess they are used differently in cars....

i know the DSM community likes to reinvent the wheel sometimes but the info is out there. not that wikipedia is the end all be all either.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_shaft[/ame]

 

[boost97gst]

I dont believe its possible to attach a belt to the crank and stop torsional whip. Thats why the fluidampr is so heavy and attached directly to the front of the crank. Some wisemen on the forums had this out awhile back, like i said. There was a consensus that as far as your crank is concerned the BS's had nearly zero effect. Just regurgitating what ive read and what makes sense. Point taken and as i say: to each his own.
Just remember, that BS is spinning 2Xs the speed of the crank. Most people dont like that but people have had success revving to 10k w BS's in place.

 

[Perkul8r]

Thanks for all the info guys. I gotta pull the motor anyway. Found bearing material in the oil pan. So gonna rebuild the motor while its still good. .

 

[zedicus]

I dont believe its possible to attach a belt to the crank and stop torsional whip. Thats why the fluidampr is so heavy and attached directly to the front of the crank. Some wisemen on the forums had this out awhile back, like i said. There was a consensus that as far as your crank is concerned the BS's had nearly zero effect. Just regurgitating what ive read and what makes sense. Point taken and as i say: to each his own.
Just remember, that BS is spinning 2Xs the speed of the crank. Most people dont like that but people have had success revving to 10k w BS's in place.

they are not their for torsional whip either. but we are trying to keep from compounding different aspects of vibration. turbo 1L crotch rocket engines on the ragged edge of tune have been known to do 20,000RPM with the balance shafts in place. the goal of any one of these 3 types of products, balance shafts, fluidampr, or flywheel is to stop ranges of vibration at different times. IF no vibration cancellation was done at all and at one particular RPM range the waves were all lined up it would disintegrate the entire motorcycle. think of how rogue waves form in the ocean.

 

[boost97gst]

I understand harmonics. And i do agree, BS have their place in a motor to stop vibrations. I'll leave it at that. Ill try to post a link of the thread when i get back tonight, if i can find it.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Jacks Transmission has a good write up on balance shafts and it is pointed towards the harmonics in the clutch at high RPM's. Good reading, but each to his own. Might go to their site and read it. MTC

 

[95GSTowner]

I know some will disagree with this method but if you change your mind and decide to do the BSE in car then heres an easy way to get them out. Unbolt front case and remove it with the rear shaft attached. The front shaft should still be inside the motor. Pull the front shaft out as far as you can and cut it in 1/2 with a reciprocating saw "Sawzall". Its a hell of a lot quicker and easier then trying to get it out as a whole shaft. From memory, you should only have to cut the front shaft because the rear shaft will come out pretty easy with the front case. You might have to lower the engine a lil bit. This is how I did it on my 91 gsx and I had no issues. I drove the car a good 10k miles after this, sold it to a friend and 2 years later it's still going strong. The metal shavings from cutting the shaft will fall on the ground, not inside your motor. Now if you wanted to save the balance shafts then this is not the option for you.

This method could scratch your old BS bearings but you would be replacing them with block-off bearings anyway.

 

[poteau]

Jacks Transmission has a good write up on balance shafts and it is pointed towards the harmonics in the clutch at high RPM's. Good reading, but each to his own. Might go to their site and read it. MTC

Friend of mine that is a competitive ice racer told me to not remove the balance shafts I asked him why and he told me it was because of extra wear on the oil pump as well as the harmonics and torsional whip. I had my bs's lathed but after all of this, I'm reinstalling oem balance shafts. The engine runs so much smoother with them in.

This article is worth the read. Here. Let me post it for you:

http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pages/keep-your-balance-shafts

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Glad you found it, I was going to post the link but I am at work. It is worth reading and then deciding yourself. My son has his removed and his 97 Talon runs great, my 90 Talon has them in and I plan on leaving them in. So you see, each to his own even if it is family. I have not had my car to the track yet as I am getting it tuned properly before any runs like that (DSM link tuning by My1GDSM) but I expect to at least squeek 13's possibly much better but I will find out in a few weeks. Both cars are modded pretty good, with mine having stock cams and my sons having a set of big BC cams. Mine is a stick that is why I am leaving them in, his is an auto and runs terrific. Just info. I think everyone should read that article before deciding, since the factory had them there for SOME reason obviously. I just don't want clutch drag at high RPM's so mine are staying.

 

[TheMachinist]

I ran the GSC "raceshaft" on my Evo's build.... Epic fail, it bent, broke out of the oil pump and got smashed out of the block by the crank. But for the first 5000 miles or so I never had any problems, no added vibration, no clutch drag at higher revs. I also have a lightweight flywheel. My only suggestion, from my experience, is use the OE stubby shafts and stay away from the turned down "raceshafts". This time around not only will I use the stubby shaft, but I also got the bottom end balanced.