Any way to check balance shaft bearing condition when doing TB replacement?

[XC92]

No, this isn't another "Should I do a BSE?" thread. I'm mulling over whether to do it myself for when I replace my TB and everything else timing-related (including WP and front seals), although I'm leaning against doing it for now due to my lack of sufficient knowledge about the matter and instead trying to research it further before I do the TB job. No lack of good (and of course bad) information to be found here and elsewhere.

Rather, I wanted to ask if there's any way to tell if either of the BS bearings or anything else BS-related (yeah I know classic bad pun material) are going bad when I'm in there, beyond the obvious things like roughness, axial or radial play, etc, after I remove all the old parts. Say, discoloration, streak marks, oil splattering, etc. The engine will be in the car and supported by a jack and piece of 2x4 on the bottom of the oil pan.

FWIW if I do keep the BS in, I already bought a Gates blue Kevlar racing belt to replace whatever's in there now. Not sure if that matters with respect to the BS being a source of TB or engine failure but it wasn't that much more expensive than the OEM BSB.

And I'm replacing everything else with OEM parts, except the WP, which is Aisin. Also, still haven't decided whether to get the OEM TB or the EVO 9 Kevlar OEM TB. The latter's only $25 more and I understand that because it stretches less under sudden acceleration then that's one less thing to worry about in terms of skipping. Plus I've already got a Kevlar BS belt, so it seemed to make sense to get a Kevlar TB.

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

Are you prepared to cut the front balance in half with the motor in the car? That’s the only way it’s coming out (if you still have AC on the car). Otherwise, you can drop the motor down and slide the shaft out. If you’re AC compressor is still on the car, You can’t drop the motor down far enough to allow the shaft to clear the side of the chassis

 

[pauleyman]

Are you prepared to cut the front balance in half with the motor in the car? That’s the only way it’s coming out (if you still have AC on the car). Otherwise, you can drop the motor down and slide the shaft out. If you’re AC compressor is still on the car, You can’t drop the motor down far enough to allow the shaft to clear the side of the chassis

I know for sure this isn't true. I did it. It sucked sucked sucked and I wouldn't do it again. I'd cut it. If memory serves I undid all but the trans mount and had the motor on a cherry picker and lowered it down far enough. I know I didn't cut it because I kept the shafts.

BTW XC92 I did not eliminate them. I did this to make a repair. Even though I got bit in another car I continue to run balance shafts. Guessing 300k or more between 4 dsms and another 350k on two other vehicles with shafts.

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

I know for sure this isn't true. I did it. It sucked sucked sucked and I wouldn't do it again. I'd cut it. If memory serves I undid all but the trans mount and had the motor on a cherry picker and lowered it down far enough. I know I didn't cut it because I kept the shafts.

In my last car, I was able to pull the front shaft out just by removing the driver side motor mount and dropping the front cross member low enough to slide the shaft out. I also did not have an AC compressor.
My current car has the AC compressor still installed. I was not able to drop the engine down far enough to allow the shaft to clear using the above method. I imagine doing it your way would allow for enough clearance, given that you pulled both front and rear mounts, and had the engine supported by a Cherry picker. I didn’t have the space for a picker.

I just elected to leave the front shaft in and remove the belt.

 

[pauleyman]

In my last car, I was able to pull the front shaft out just by removing the driver side motor mount and dropping the front cross member low enough to slide the shaft out. I also did not have an AC compressor.
My current car has the AC compressor still installed. I was not able to drop the engine down far enough to allow the shaft to clear using the above method. I imagine doing it your way would allow for enough clearance, given that you pulled both front and rear mounts, and had the engine supported by a Cherry picker. I didn’t have the space for a picker.

I just elected to leave the front shaft in and remove the belt.

Actually if I were to eliminate in the car I would probably do this.

 

[XC92]

Well thanks for all the advice on how to do the BSE with the engine still in the car but at this point I just want to know if there's anything I can check to see if the whole BS "assembly" is showing signs of failing, e.g. rough bearings or play, etc. I have in no way decided whether I'm going to do the BSE.

And yes, Pauley, I'm aware that you didn't do the BSE and are running fine. We discussed this elsewhere recently. And both because it's not the issue at hand here and because it appears to be a volatile one, I'm not looking to discuss whether one should do it or not, just trying to gather data that will help me make that decision.

And, while we're talking about TB jobs, any reason to NOT get the EVO 9 Kevlar TB instead of the OEM, aside from the extra cost? I read somewhere that supposedly it might put extra strain on the oil pump sprocket and damage the bearings, but I don't know either way if there's any truth to that.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

It won't put any more "strain" on it than the tensioner will give it. Get the Kevlar belt for piece of mind, as you said, you already have the BS belt too.
Only thing I can think of is you would at least have to pull the BS's out far enough to eyeball the bearings and the shaft journals. They are a lot like a V-8 camshaft bearings, and hardly ever wear out because they only see rotation, not any "load".

 

[pauleyman]

Well thanks for all the advice on how to do the BSE with the engine still in the car but at this point I just want to know if there's anything I can check to see if the whole BS "assembly" is showing signs of failing, e.g. rough bearings or play, etc. I have in no way decided whether I'm going to do the BSE.

And yes, Pauley, I'm aware that you didn't do the BSE and are running fine. We discussed this elsewhere recently. And both because it's not the issue at hand here and because it appears to be a volatile one, I'm not looking to discuss whether one should do it or not, just trying to gather data that will help me make that decision.

And, while we're talking about TB jobs, any reason to NOT get the EVO 9 Kevlar TB instead of the OEM, aside from the extra cost? I read somewhere that supposedly it might put extra strain on the oil pump sprocket and damage the bearings, but I don't know either way if there's any truth to that.

I don't know of any tell-tale signs of bad bearings without disassembly other than obvious. If you take the oil pan off again you might be able to check the placement of the bearings. I'm not necessarily convinced the bearings to die from oil pressure but since they really have nothing retaining them axially except friction I'm curious if they ever slip out. There are people out there who have reported the block chewed up because the bearing went awol and they had no choice except to do a shaft delete.

 

[streetraceboi]

I deleted the balance shafts once with the motor in the car, AC too. I was too far in to back out.....so I did it. IT SUCKED....HARD! Never again. If I were as wise as I am now....the motor would have been pulled at first thought

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

I deleted the balance shafts once with the motor in the car, AC too. I was too far in to back out.....so I did it. IT SUCKED....HARD! Never again. If I were as wise as I am now....the motor would have been pulled at first thought

How did you remove the front shaft ?

 

[XC92]

I don't know of any tell-tale signs of bad bearings without disassembly other than obvious. If you take the oil pan off again you might be able to check the placement of the bearings. I'm not necessarily convinced the bearings to die from oil pressure but since they really have nothing retaining them axially except friction I'm curious if they ever slip out. There are people out there who have reported the block chewed up because the bearing went awol and they had no choice except to do a shaft delete.

When I had the pan off I took some photos of the engine bottom. Maybe some of these might reveal something, if not regarding the BS, then its overall condition? Isn't the shaft in the last photo one of the balance shafts? If so, any idea why it has a silvery color on its right end and looks kind of chewed up, like it had been on a lathe and a circular "ring" was cut into it?

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[DSMPT]

any reason to NOT get the EVO 9 Kevlar TB instead of the OEM, aside from the extra cost? I read somewhere that supposedly it might put extra strain on the oil pump sprocket and damage the bearings, but I don't know either way if there's any truth to that.

Not true as long as if the oil pressure and belt tension are proper.

 

[XC92]

Not true as long as if the oil pressure and belt tension are proper.

Belt tension I get but how do you make sure oil pressure is good?

 

[streetraceboi]

How did you remove the front shaft ?

Pretty much took apart everything for it to lean/tilt the motor low enough to pull it out. It was a pain. I didn't have a hoist at the time so I had to wing it.

 

[DSMPT]

Belt tension I get but how do you make sure oil pressure is good?

Install an oil pressure gauge and pay attention to it.

 

[XC92]

Install an oil pressure gauge and pay attention to it.

Ok but how does one regulate said pressure if its off?

 

[DSMPT]

Ok but how does one regulate said pressure if its off?

I am not so sure what exactly your question is but if you have a healthy oil pump/filter housing and if the engine was built properly, you would have a proper pressure and lubrication while the engine is running.

 

[XC92]

I mean, if you're going to measure and display the oil pressure then it only makes sense that there's going to be some way to regulate it. Or is this like a temp gauge, to make sure it's within the proper range and to warn you if it's not so you can kill the motor and address the issue before it does damage?

 

[DSMPT]

I mean, if you're going to measure and display the oil pressure then it only makes sense that there's going to be some way to regulate it. Or is this like a temp gauge, to make sure it's within the proper range and to warn you if it's not so you can kill the motor and address the issue before it does damage?

It's not to regulate. Yes, the pressure gauge is just like you said, it's to realize that the engine has an issue before you damage the engine more. If you would have a standalone ecu, you can have a pressure fail safe to protect the engine more.

 

[XC92]

Got it. What are the most common causes of too low or too high oil pressure in say a stock 2.0L turbo engine? I.e. what to watch out for, check and fix, since I've been working on the car and am about to replace the TB, WP & front seals.

 

[DSMPT]

the most common causes of too low or too high oil pressure

Common causes of too low/high pressure that I can imagine is :
Worn/damaged pump.
OFH is ported too much.
Pressure relief valve is stuck open or closed or not function smoothly.
Forget to block off balance shafts oil feeds in case if the BS are eliminated.
Oil squirter's check valves are stuck open or closed.
Too tight/loose bearing clearance.
Wrong side (up side down) main bearings.
Clogged oil filter.
Broken/loose oil pickup.
Improper external oil cooler ports block off, if it has a 90 or early evo's OFH.

 

[XC92]

Thanks. Will look out for these, to the extent that I can. Other than installing a gauge or engine failure, are there any fairly obvious signs that the oil pressure is off or even less obvious ones that should prompt one to suspect that it might be off, in terms of strange sounds, unusual engine behavior, overheating, etc.?

So many things to worry about with older cars!

Btw anything off you see in the photos I posted above, and is that one of the balance shafts in the last one and does it look ok? Is the color ok?

 

[DSMPT]

Thanks. Will look out for these, to the extent that I can. Other than installing a gauge or engine failure, are there any fairly obvious signs that the oil pressure is off or even less obvious ones that should prompt one to suspect that it might be off, in terms of strange sounds, unusual engine behavior, overheating, etc.?

So many things to worry about with older cars!

Btw anything off you see in the photos I posted above, and is that one of the balance shafts in the last one and does it look ok? Is the color ok?

To be honest it's hard to tell/realize it without a gauge while you are driving. I think most of people drive until they start to hear rod knocks. but in case if you would have very low oil pressure, you may realize that lash adjusters become noisier than usual. And at idle, you remove oil filler cap and see inside to check if rocker arms are shooting oil or not. Or even if it's shooting oil, if oil from rocker arm oil jet is not reaching to rocker arm bearing/cam lobe, you may have low oil pressure. That's what I do sometimes since my 2g doesn't have an oil pressure gauge. Also I check oil dip stick often after start the engine/before starting to drive to confirm if oil doesn't look metallic.

I don't see something very abnormal in the pics, the color may come from the past. If something bad is happening in the engine, you can probably find some sign from damage bearings.

 

[XC92]

Thanks again. Something for me to look into, along with so many other things.