2G Another DSM in time attack/road racing! Cooling ?s

[Wufei]

Hey guys!

I'm setting my DSM up for time attack and had a successful shakedown this past Sun w/a 1:34 at Streets of Willow CW w/NO tune, alignment, and 10 yr old Falken 452s haha.

Coolant hit 226+ in Link on a cool low 70s day tho. Running CX Racing radiator behind the FMIC w/stock fans & 20/80 coolant/water/water wetter. Should I do ducting first or go aftermarket fans? How does the stock fans compare to SPAL or Flex A Lite?

I'll be competing in Redline Time Attack & the Extreme Speed AWD Competition Series again this yr. Follow my adventures on the@LSLMotorsports page!

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[Pipnorcali]

I would do some ducting for sure 226 is way to high for me..are you using a external oil cooler? Try some ducting / bumper holes n see if it helps any.. Your gonna be in trouble when it 100+ this summer...

 

[T2Small]

Try ducting and the largest air/oil cooler you can with the factory fans. (So ditch the factory oil cooler to reduce the load on your radiator.) That should handle 16G power fine, but any more and you'll need even more work. I still run A/C and I can keep it just barely in check at 16G power levels.

Doing proper ducting is quite time consuming. Do it right, and makes sure everything is sealed and all air going through that front opening is forced through the radiator. The air will take the easiest path, so that means it will want to avoid your radiator by flowing through any open gaps in the ducting. Seal it all!

 

[ceedawg]

Hey guys!

I'm setting my DSM up for time attack and had a successful shakedown this past Sun w/a 1:34 at Streets of Willow CW w/NO tune, alignment, and 10 yr old Falken 452s haha.

Coolant hit 226+ in Link on a cool low 70s day tho. Running CX Racing radiator behind the FMIC w/stock fans & 20/80 coolant/water/water wetter. Should I do ducting first or go aftermarket fans? How does the stock fans compare to SPAL or Flex A Lite?

I'll be competing in Redline Time Attack & the Extreme Speed AWD Competition Series again this yr. Follow my adventures on the@LSLMotorsports page!

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Wow I wish you the best with this and will be following you as this is what I want to do with my car but with a bigger turbo

 

[snowborder714]

Ducting. Fans don't really help at speed on the track, but ducting will.

 

[TAMA_player]

Hi Wufei, nice car you have there.

Someone recommend me to remove the water cooling from my td05 20g, that cooling is supposed to be to avoid turbo timer the car and nothing more.
I removed the cooling and seems to be an improvement on engine cooling. Tested only on the street because the roadracing season don't start until next month.

Maybe a turbo expert can chime in to approve or disapprove this statements?

 

[pagosa dsm]

I would recommended looking at a racing radiator from Speedway motors with the same measurement as ours. You will have to fab the tabs so it would fit your car. Get some pusher fans so you can install a thicker radiator. As said earlier do some ducting and a larger air to oil cooler.
Rick

 

[TSiAWD666]

1. Sealed Ducting from the mouth to the fmic and radiator with as few air gaps as possible, and with a partial path over the fmic (i.e. a path that bypasses it entirely) to the radiator.
2. don't get pusher fans. pull fans only, and even then they're not a big factor in on track cooling. If you're going to change fans then get the highest cfm you can find that will fit, and mount them flush against the radiator. Wire the fans so you can have them always on while on track (mine use a ground on the ecu, forget which wire it is, and a switch so I can lock them on while on track, and return to normal operation off track).
3. don't go wasting money on a radiator yet without #1/2.
4. since you don't have to worry about aero moving the oil cooling to a separate air cooler is a reasonable idea to reduce cooling system load.

Also search. This topic's been covered an umpteen amount of times.

 

[Wufei]

Thanks for all the great input guys! Here's my cooling plan:

1. External oil cooler from stock water cooling:
   A. Any experiences with B&M, Setrab, or Earl's would be appreciated.
   B. Any downsides to using the Evo 8/9 OFH over the Evo 3?
   C. Any issues/tips for mounting it on the passenger's side instead of driver's?
2. Ducting: Are sheet aluminum & weather resistant tape or weatherstripping the best to materials to work with?

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

Evo 8/9 ofh is best, 9 is better as it has more ports your your logging sensors if you need them. If not 8 is fine just 1 less sensor. B&m coolers are great setrab are also really good. Just remember to not solid mount them and use rubber bobbins or that they can take shakes.

Passanger side is further away just more hose. No big issue though

 

[snowborder714]

My brother and I have Setrab oil coolers installed and they're great. We wanted to go with the biggest one possible, but the downside we've seen is the oil doesn't always get up to ideal operating temp when not racing. My brother even has the factory drivers side 2gb bumper block-off plate in and sometimes it doesn't get to target temp if it's really cold outside.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/my-fuse-box-relocation-project-log.298569/page-26#post-152527852

I prefer the Evo 9 over the Evo 8/Evo 3 because of the additional ports and where it places the oil filter.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/evo-9-ofh-in-2g.393382/

Might be a bit tougher getting the oil cooler lines to the passenger side and keeping them away from heat.

Here's a good thread showing how easy it can be to do ducting. When I do mine this spring I plan on following the general ideas of this, using split vacuum line on the edges to help seal it up when it's bolted down. Tape will work as well.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/fmic-ducting.245981/

 

[NordicSaab]

All the recommendations above are good and should help your cooling issue. On my 1g I did things a little different than above.

1) Aluminum Radiator
2) Custom aluminum shroud with high performance SPAL fans
3) Notched lower radiator support to shift radiator an additional 1.5 inches from turbo
4) Turbo blanket
5) Front splitter to increase airflow to radiator

This more or less solved my on track cooling problem... Good luck

 

[Wufei]

Thanks for the great input guys!

snowborder714, how much lower than ideal temps are you seeing? I think some people install a thermostat?

Also, bit of a newb question haha, what's all the stuff current in the driver's side? ABS module?

 

[eclipsh]

I'm going g to have to agree with Rick. Buy a good radiator and do ducting for that. Why repeat all that work. If you've read about the differences in efficiency for quality intercoolers vs. cheap it should give you some idea about radiators too. Reading reviews of CXracing rads I wouldn't count on one for track duty.

 

[snowborder714]

Thanks for the great input guys!

snowborder714, how much lower than ideal temps are you seeing? I think some people install a thermostat?

Also, bit of a newb question haha, what's all the stuff current in the driver's side? ABS module?

Um, maybe 20° or so? I don't have any data in front of me to check. The OFH has a built-in 180° thermostat.

Ya, the ABS module is what you see in the way on my brother's car. I think the evap canister might be somewhere in that area as well if it's still installed.

 

[Pipnorcali]

My setrab has been doing its thing for years .. P/s cooler behind the fmic

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[Talyn]

I would start by trying the simpler cheaper things first before buying another radiator that unless its bigger probably won't be any better, I actually have the same radiator(And imo it seems like a quality radiator, nice welds and everything), but I also got the slimline fans and shroud from cxracing, granted I haven't done any racing with my car, but that being said I do thrash it some and have never had cooling issues with that setup.
Another thing I think I did was to wire the fans in such a way that both come on at the same time, the factory wiring setup only turns on one fan at first, bc the other is for the AC, so look into wiring them in such a way that both come on when the engine cooling one does. Another little thing I did, was to wrap my coolant crossover pipe in heat tape, I didn't like that it was literally right next to the extremely hot exhaust manifold with all that heat soaking into the coolant going through that pipe. I'd also suggest going with a low temp thermostat, or even no thermostat when racing, but you are probably already doing that.
Another thing that can help is turning the heat on high, it'll suck for the driver and any passengers, but it will help with the temps. The way the heater in a car works, is by basically running the coolant through a 2nd and much smaller radiator, and then the cabin fan draws the air across it, heating up the air. Literally does the exact same thing as the radiator, but on a smaller scale and for different reasons. One more thing you might consider is wrapping the exhaust manifold in heat tape, or getting it ceramic coated, and or getting a turbo blanket for the turbo or having the turbine housing coated. And lastly, if you have adjustable ignition timing(ie. a 6 bolt in a 2g) verify that the base ignition timing is correct, and not retarded. If base ignition timing is retarded it can actually cause quite a lot of excess heat, pretty sure that's what killed my factory radiator.(The plastic nipple for the upper rad hose broke off from heat) Oh, and verify that the fans do come on when they are supposed to. When I had to replace my coolant temp sensor nobody had the one with the right plug, so I had the brilliant idea of splicing in the different plug with the different sensor, damn thing was reading low by something like 20-60* low.

 

[snowborder714]

Thrashing on a car and running it hard for 20+ minutes at a time are two completely different things. When I went to my first road course event, I thought I had my cooling system figured out. I could autox, drag race, and beat on the car on the street with no issues at all. But that's not for any extended period of time at WOT. Also add in that the ambient temperature won't help at all if you're racing in July.

A lower temp thermostat won't necessarily help his setup if he doesn't have air going through the radiator (e.g. ducting). The thermostat just controls when to allow flow to the radiator. But if his turbo is working hard and he doesn't have dedicated airflow to the radiator, it doesn't matter what thermostat he runs as it'll most likely overheat. And running without one isn't a good idea either. Running straight water (possibly with some Water Wetter or other additive) would be an improvement over running any coolant, and in some sanctions coolant is prohibited from being used on a road course.
http://www.tuneruniversity.com/blog/2012/04/low-temp-thermostats-whats-the-advantage/

 

[ErikTande]

What do you guys make your ducting out of? Would plexi be ok? Or stick to thin sheet metal?

 

[Talyn]

Thrashing on a car and running it hard for 20+ minutes at a time are two completely different things. When I went to my first road course event, I thought I had my cooling system figured out. I could autox, drag race, and beat on the car on the street with no issues at all. But that's not for any extended period of time at WOT. Also add in that the ambient temperature won't help at all if you're racing in July.

A lower temp thermostat won't necessarily help his setup if he doesn't have air going through the radiator (e.g. ducting). The thermostat just controls when to allow flow to the radiator. But if his turbo is working hard and he doesn't have dedicated airflow to the radiator, it doesn't matter what thermostat he runs as it'll most likely overheat. And running without one isn't a good idea either. Running straight water (possibly with some Water Wetter or other additive) would be an improvement over running any coolant, and in some sanctions coolant is prohibited from being used on a road course.
http://www.tuneruniversity.com/blog/2012/04/low-temp-thermostats-whats-the-advantage/

I'm well aware that its not the same thing, but everything I suggested still applies. And you are wrong about the thermostat, the entire and only purpose of the thermostat is to maintain a specific operational engine temperature, which it does by limiting coolant flow. I can assure you from personal experience, that running without a thermostat can drastically lower engine temps. The only drawbacks that result, wouldn't apply while racing. Ie. lack of heat in winter, and the engine not running ideally due to not being up to its intended operating temperature.

 

[ervin00]

What do you guys make your ducting out of? Would plexi be ok? Or stick to thin sheet metal?

I always make mine out of aluminum sheet, easy to work with and light. If you have a sheet metal bender and a roller you can make a your own design. Also recommend to rivet them together instead of welding.

 

[Scott McIntyre]

I used the stock ducting, foam pipe insulators, aluminum sheet, and aluminum duct tape.

http://s498.photobucket.com/user/scmcint/library/FMIC Install

 

[BoostedBeaver]

And you are wrong about the thermostat, the entire and only purpose of the thermostat is to maintain a specific operational engine temperature, which it does by limiting coolant flow.

You are in fact correct that the thermostat maintains a specific operational temperature. It does limit the flow (only to achieve operational temperature) until it is completely open. Once the thermostat is open, the cooling system is still limited by its ability to remove heat. This is the same concept that Brian points out so maybe you misunderstood his information.

I can assure you from personal experience, that running without a thermostat can drastically lower engine temps.

Given the same ambient temps, running no thermostat will increase the time it takes for a car to overheat but it will not cure the issue. The ability of the cooling system to remove enough heat would still lead to overheating when the car is operated under elevated load for an extended period of time.

 

[99redgst]

Running no thermostat may given you lower coolant temps, but the engine itself will be running hotter. Removing the restriction the thermostat provides allows the coolant to move too quickly through the engine to absorb the heat. You would be much better off modifying the thermostat so it always stays open and leaving it installed. Of course that will just delay the inevitable if the system isn't efficient enough.

 

[tsiboosted]

I want to chime in here on this issue as I had it prior to doing the upgrades to my 2G DSM back when we were racing it full time. Now I have to preface this by saying I was running a huge side mount innnercooler and not a front mount. So that had some to do with it, yes.

However, on runs longer than 30 minutes even with the side mount I was getting water temps well over 200 degrees which is not good.

I did the ducting with some brake ducting to the sides of the radiator and that did nothing. In the end, I wired just OEM radiator fans to both come on at the same time on a toggle switch in the cockpit of the car. At anytime when I saw the water temps heading north of 200 degrees, I hit the switch and never saw anything over 190 degrees any other time on the track.

This may not be the solution for you, I just wanted to throw it out there as it worked for us. I ran 50 minute enduros as well in the south in the middle of summer and never saw temps go over 190 degrees with what we did with the fans and having them both on at the same time. And using two bottles of Water Wetter and the rest water as well.

My $0.02 on this matter.