1G DSM Time Attack

[cole_bie]

Can the 1G or 2G DSMs for that matter be competitive track cars? I love AWD Turbos, but I have never seen a DSM run competitively in a time attack challenge, or a road race, or anything like that. I only see them do well in drag racing. Is it possible, or would I be better off with something like a 240sx?

 

[divinaand_1]

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[1gDSM4g63]

Have you heard of Evo? They're well rally cars not solely drag racing and basically AWD DSMs are the same as Evos without the electronic traction control. But it is all about what you prefer.

 

[cole_bie]

Do you think a 1g or 2g would have more handling potential.

 

[cole_bie]

Oops sorry for the double post, my internet messed up.

 

[1992awdlaser]

Have you heard of Evo? They're well rally cars not solely drag racing and basically AWD DSMs are the same as Evos without the electronic traction control. But it is all about what you prefer.

Dsm's don't handle like evo's though.

 

[Phil1320]

I my personal opinion, it depends on how the cars are set-up. I have a 90TSI that will out handle my EVO no problem....now to clarify.......I have more than 700lbs out of my Talon and it has every suspension mod you can think of for a DSM including JIC coilovers. It will beat the pants off my EVO in every facet including braking and it still has the original 1 pot front calipers. Don't get me wrong, I think the EVO is the most serious 4 banger ever, but, if you keep them at stock weight, even Brembos with Hawk pads have trouble keeping up when the car is so heavy.

We also have to keep in mind the that the EVO has many aluminum suspension pieces and the design that went into the car was not the same as our DSMs...

Not sure on 2G, but the 1G has a 15.8:1 steering ratio.......quick but lazy when compared to the EVO's 13.0:1.

So, the EVO is outstanding, but, to say a DSM can't compete, I think that would be a mistake.

From what I've learned from the DSM road racing community up here is that the only reason a DSM might not be competitive against the EVO in the NASA series is that there is a weight handicap because DSM's are two doors and EVO's are 4 doors. Pretty lame in my book. You'd think that they would throw that away considering the EVO that we finally got here in America is light years away in design from the DSM when it started here in '89.

My EVO's are gone now as I truly did not enjoy them as street cars/daily drivers. That quick steering ratio was great on full boil in the twisties, or at the track, but, I didn't like it on the street. The EVO's/STi's are great, but, for what I'm used to, too heavy, no matter how fast and nimble, they not only are heavy, they FEEL heavy. To me, that's not fun, I enjoy cars that are south of 2800lbs. the most. Even the new Mazdaspeed 3 is a fun car to drive but you can feel its heft at 3200lbs.

This is why I started removing weight on the Talon, to try to get it to be more flickable and fun to drive, and it worked. I think the guys up here will tell you that the DSM can be as competitive as anything out there if the sanctioning bodies would cut the crap with the penalties on our cars.


Phil

ps--based on what I've heard up here...the 2G seems to be the one to pick for overall handling...the front suspension design differs from the 1G and apparently that is key...

 

[1992awdlaser]

Out of the box evo>dsm. Same things done to each car (unlike yours) evo>dsm.

 

[underradar92]

Ah, but they can be competitive: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/roa...4-regional-mitsubishi-road-racing-sucess.html

As with anything in racing though, "If you want to make a small fortune in racing, it's best to start with a large fortune" (I forget the author of this one, and it's probably not verbatim, but you get the idea.)

 

[1992awdlaser]

Ah, but they can be competitive: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/roa...4-regional-mitsubishi-road-racing-sucess.html

As with anything in racing though, "If you want to make a small fortune in racing, it's best to start with a large fortune" (I forget the author of this one, and it's probably not verbatim, but you get the idea.)

I wasn't saying they can't be competitive. I was just saying that an evo is easier to be competitive with.

 

[underradar92]

I wasn't saying they can't be competitive. I was just saying that an evo is easier to be competitive with.

Oops. Didn't intend to direct that one at anyone in particular, just generalizing.

 

[Phil1320]

Ah, but they can be competitive: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/roa...4-regional-mitsubishi-road-racing-sucess.html

As with anything in racing though, "If you want to make a small fortune in racing, it's best to start with a large fortune" (I forget the author of this one, and it's probably not verbatim, but you get the idea.)

I remember the post and it is awesome to see, but I remember Rich in particular speaking of racing against the AMS EVO the year before and talking about the penalties bestowed upon our DSMs for the mere fact that they are 2 door coupes....

Obviously a "released in America" '03 EVO has a significant advantage over a DSM that was released more than a decade before......this is no surprise.....as far as technology goes...........either way, in this country, the DSM paved the way for the EVO. I'd own another EVO some day, but, purely to gut out, and race, for street driving, you can keep it.


Phil

 

[RipperXX]

You guys seem to forget that when you consider the price tag of the evo compaired to a DSM, you can mod the DSM with the left over cash to whoop the hell out of it.

 

[underradar92]

Additionally, We haven't got a feel for how serious the OP is as far as whether this is a fun deal or chasing a championship. That'll make all the difference.

 

[vertGST]

Roy's GSX comes to mind when i think of this. SCC ultimate street car challenge

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

Wow i really like the 3rd video down in the second post!!!

 

[eclipsh]

Wow i really like the 3rd video down in the second post!!!

Nah, the 2nd one is the best I'll bet he spanked that STi behind him






(by about a second actually )

 

[1992awdlaser]

I like the first video.

To the two people above me, how do you think an agx/gc setup would do around turns? I have this suspension already but haven't put it on the car yet since it is in another state.

 

[RipperXX]

I went with AGX shocks, and love them. That being said the roads around where I live are very very good. If there are not good roads in your area I would go with Koni's from what everyone has told me.

My car rides very well but if I hit any bumps you notice how stiff it is. (I am on Eibach Prokit springs btw not coilovers)

 

[tsiboosted]

I like the first video.

To the two people above me, how do you think an agx/gc setup would do around turns? I have this suspension already but haven't put it on the car yet since it is in another state.

I run KYB/AGXs on my race car and love them. What spring rates did you get on your Ground Controls? That is one suspension mod I will be doing in the off-season is getting the Ground Control coilover kit as well.

 

[mavisky]

2g's have better suspension design, but it doesn't mean that a 1g is out of the question when it comes to handling well. If you go AWD, seriously consider upgrading the front and center diff with Quaife units as the open front diff and viscous center diff will make the car want to understeer like a mad man unless you do some crazy stuff with rear suspension rates. You can use the suspension to get the car to be loose on entry but unlike a fwd, it's not as easy to catch and is still not the fastest way through the corner for an awd.

 

[1992awdlaser]

I run KYB/AGXs on my race car and love them. What spring rates did you get on your Ground Controls? That is one suspension mod I will be doing in the off-season is getting the Ground Control coilover kit as well.

Actually I don't know. They are eibach spring. I bought them used from a member on dsmlink forums for drag racing.

 

[cole_bie]

2g's have better suspension design, but it doesn't mean that a 1g is out of the question when it comes to handling well. If you go AWD, seriously consider upgrading the front and center diff with Quaife units as the open front diff and viscous center diff will make the car want to understeer like a mad man unless you do some crazy stuff with rear suspension rates. You can use the suspension to get the car to be loose on entry but unlike a fwd, it's not as easy to catch and is still not the fastest way through the corner for an awd.

What advantages does the Quaife offer?

 

[mavisky]

First off the front diff is an open diff so by nature it sends it's power to the wheel that has the least grip, this is never a good thing. Even by upgrading just the front diff you'll notice a good bit of improvement. The real gains though are to be found in the center diff though. The awd stock center diff is a viscous unit which requires a certain amount of slip to build up heat in order to lock itself. Let's take a look at how this affects the car.

Exiting a corner you apply the throttle just past the apex and the front diff gets the power first. This diff lights up the inside tire reducing front grip and the car begins to understeer. The center diff feels the difference and locks up sending power to the rear wheels. So we've got a car in an understeer mode and all of a sudden we've given it a push in the back so it understeers more.

Now with the Quaife diffs we have a totally different scenario. Apply the power and the car transfers the power to the outside front wheel to get the car to start rotating and at the same time the mechanical center diff instantly sends power to the rear wheels so they instantly start pushing the car out of the corner. On a car that has a semi-neutral suspsension setup, it actually handles like a rwd car with double the accelerative forward grip thanks to the extra set of drive wheels.

 

[cioc]

Mavisky,
I thought the Quaife center still utilized the viscous?..or so I've read. My transmission is currently at Shepherd's for a complete rebuild with a Quaife front option. When speaking with a few people about the Quaife center I've been told not to do it for a couple of reasons. Firstly, their design lends itself to premature failure which could potentially take out ALOT more than just the center diff. I wasn't about to drop ~$3K on a rebuild w/ Quaife front and have a poor design take me out in a year or two. Maybe if I was competing and money was no option. Secondly, I was told that in order for the center to work properly, it needed to have both front wheels to be slipping which is why the drag guys like them so much on hard launches. With a front Quaife, I didn't feel that the frequency of both wheels slipping was enough to see the gains of the Quaife center. I hope I didn't make the wrong decision.