1G Another disengagement issue...but this time, EVERYTHING is new...

[92nolatist]

Ok so I installed my Shep stage 3 trans and Southbend SSX clutch with Kevlar disk and ACT Streetlite flywheel, along with NEW: OEM clutch master, slave, SS clutch line, fork, pivot ball, TOB, and a rebuilt and welded pedal assembly. Now heres the issue, the pedal grabs about an inch off the floor and the adjustment rod is threaded ALL the way out (cant thread out anymore because it will fall out the the nut thing). Shifting is notchy and sh*tty.

Personally, I dont want to ruin my brand new clutch and expensive ass f*ckin transmission so I called Shep today and talked with Trevor. He said hes only heard of this situation 2 or 3 times; he suggested to check to make sure my fork is not hitting the trans when the clutch is depressed, because that could cause an issue. I checked tonight and its not, plenty of room before hitting. He said if thats OK, then put in a longer slave rod even though its not recommended, thats all he could think of.

So since everything is BRAND FREAKING NEW, the clutch shouldnt be doing this. Im pissed off because I replaced everything so I wouldnt trash my new trans....

If I have to put in a longer rod, I will, but Id rather not. Im trying to think of anything else it could be Master push rod too short maybe? I bought everything from ExtremePSI so I know its not some garbage junk placed in a mitsu box.
Please people, help me out. Thank you.

 

[ed1380]

how far can you push it that way with your hand?

 

[92nolatist]

About another 1/3 inch, Im not positive though.

 

[ed1380]

That means you have another 1/3" of adjustment left. You want it to move 1/8", less than that and it'll be like riding the clutch.
1/3" on the slave is about 1/8" at the disk, and that'll disengage it more. just use a 5/16 socket to temporarily lengthen the rod.

 

[Nekid]

Did you take a look at your pp fingers when you pulled the tranny?

And if you remember what I have been on about this entire thread, my money is on the SBC disc is too thick.

 

[spadepro22]

Too thick is what I also believe. After fighting a battlle with car not going into gear, shop told me that the disk could be too thick. Changed it out and been shifting every since.

 

[twicks69]

Which disk again?

 

[92nolatist]

My PP fingers are slightly outward, which is normal right? So if I extend the rod with the socket and it works, then what? Do I buy an extended rod or pull my trans again for more shims?
Tim, my disk is a TZ full kevlar.

 

[ed1380]

The bad thing about shims is that too many messes up the angle. When you install the rod just make sure there's a little free play.

 

[TalonJohn94]

Have you tried welding a nut on the bracket that master cylinder rod goes into on the pedal assembly to give yourself a few more centimeters of adjustability?

I know it can be seen as a bandaid, but I have been running that way for years on ACT 2600 setup.

 

[92nolatist]

I could weld a nut, but as the rod sits now, it is a hair before the self adjustment hole in the master, and i don't want to block it off. So I cant adjust the rod out anymore.

 

[TalonJohn94]

Oh, so you are saying that if you did you would kind of be pre-loading the master cylinder?

(don't quite follow)

 

[Nekid]

My PP fingers are slightly outward, which is normal right?

That should be right, but with a SBC PP, I am not sure. I had an ACT PP when I put in my SBC kevlar disc and the fingers were near level, which, knowing what I know now, would have been the indicator to toss the SBC disc.

If you drop the tranny again, please take off the PP and measure the thickness of the disc (I posted the thicknesses of my discs earlier in the thread, and I believe I had the same disc as you). You really shouldn't have to this much monkeying around with the rest of the system to get a proper disengagement point. Even if you get it working, I would be interested in the RPM your car will be inching forward.

edit: looked over the product lines and I had the exact same disc you have and I could not get it to work with my ACT PP unless I stepped my flywheel deeper.

Oh, so you are saying that if you did you would kind of be pre-loading the master cylinder?

(don't quite follow)

There is only so much you can turn the Master rod. If you turn it too far, you block off the adjustment port for the slave cylinder, thus making your hydraulic system no longer self-adjusting. As parts wear in the drivetrain, that port allows more fluid into the system so the slave rod is always a fixed distance away from moving the fork. If you didn't have self-adjustment, your engagement point would keep getting farther down to the floor.

 

[____Kurt____]

This sucks. What I'm confused about is if the clutch system is "self-adjusting" then how would changing the fork position render the pedal position? After putting those washers on the ball and feeling the clutch in the same spot made me remember that the system is self adjusting...... I hear it works on here but after personal experience it didn't change a thing. I do understand it gives you the possibility to have more throw but the slave in theory should self adjust for the same pedal feeling. Huh?
PS: Dal, if your pulling that trans again then do US both a favor and put that shot ass Southbend in the garbage where it belongs and just something that has been proven over and over or get twin disk like your car should have. We both had ACT's with no problems other then self provoked. Junk that thing, your going to ruin your brand new trans before you get SHOT BEND CLUTCH working then you'll be replacing more then a clutch.

 

[T is for TURBO]

There is only so much you can turn the Master rod. If you turn it too far, you block off the adjustment port for the slave cylinder, thus making your hydraulic system no longer self-adjusting. As parts wear in the drivetrain, that port allows more fluid into the system so the slave rod is always a fixed distance away from moving the fork. If you didn't have self-adjustment, your engagement point would keep getting farther down to the floor.

Clutch pump-up is a 2g issue, not 1g

 

[92nolatist]

Oh, so you are saying that if you did you would kind of be pre-loading the master cylinder?

(don't quite follow)

Yea kind of, its more along the lines of "riding the clutch" so to say because if the rod goes past the adjustment hole then it would be putting pressure on the system and thus on the PP. Am I right with saying this?

Kurt, its up to you if you want to help my pull my trans again...if we do, Im gonna have another clutch setup to put in it, no more dicking around.

The car is sitting now (finally ) and I will not be driving it until this shit gets figured out. Until then, Ill be driving my hillbilly ass pickup .

...Even if you get it working, I would be interested in the RPM your car will be inching forward...

I havent taken my launch control off yet, but it doesnt move at 4500...

 

[Nekid]

Clutch pump-up is a 2g issue, not 1g

From Jacks - "1Gs can have the same clutch pedal pump up issues as 2Gs. I don't know who started the rumor that it won't but it's wrong. Yes, the master works this way on all systems. All DSMs, EVOs, 3S, etc."

Eclipse Clutch Adjustment for those wondering about the self-adjusting portion.

I havent taken my launch control off yet, but it doesnt move at 4500...

If you get a chance, it would be interesting to see if you are getting drag at all. I would have expected by then you would be getting into rolling around with the engagement point the way it is. edit: I believe when I tested out my kevlar disc, I was moving at 6000rpm.

This sucks. What I'm confused about is if the clutch system is "self-adjusting" then how would changing the fork position render the pedal position? After putting those washers on the ball and feeling the clutch in the same spot made me remember that the system is self adjusting...... I hear it works on here but after personal experience it didn't change a thing. I do understand it gives you the possibility to have more throw but the slave in theory should self adjust for the same pedal feeling.

It isn't necessarily more throw, it is getting rid of useless travel in the clutch system. What shimming the pivot ball do is move the entire assembly X inches closer so it doesn't have as far to go to do its thing. This translates into more movement of the PP fingers ultimately. This is also why over shimming can preload the TOB on the PP fingers.

Self-adjusting is a term to be used loosely. When you start changing the clutch and PP, the changes you make in the pivot ball location and threading the master clutch rod is what will adjust the engagement point. The geometry (step height, spring movement of pp, disc thickness, etc...) of the clutch system is the primary determiner though (the base start and end points). What the self-adjusting does is as I mentioned, it allows the fluid level to dynamically change during the operation of the car (heat, wear, etc...). This keeps the pedal height roughly the same based from the original geometry and your initial adjustment. If you block off the bleeder valve, expansion of the fluid from heat would start pushing the slave rod on the fork. Conversely, wear would make the engagement point farther away because you won't be "snugged" up to the fork. What I'm trying to say, in your case, is the self-adjusting property of the clutch hydraulics can't make up for poor geometry of the rest of the components, it is only meant to keep things where they need to be when heat or wear happens.

 

[92nolatist]

Havent touched my car yet, its still sitting in time out for disrespecting me . So lets just say my clutch disk is too thick, what other disk could I replace it with? I would like to keep the SSX PP because it is equal to a ~2700 PP, as per what TMZ says on their site. The only other disks Ive seen are an organic street disk and I dont know if they would hold; Im looking for like 550whp.

 

[ed1380]

act 6 puck ceramic.

 

[92nolatist]

Ive heard that the puck discs can warp the PP, but I think thats more of a 4 puck issue considering theres so much space between the pucks. Can anyone give any input on this statement?
Are they all ceramic? Because it doesnt say.

 

[Nekid]

I would use an ACT 6 puck, but for the cost of the disc, depending on how much machining is around where you live, you could get the flywheel stepped deeper.

I used to have a ACT sprung 6 puck and never had any issues with it. Sometimes got a bit chattery in dd slipping, but nothing I couldn't live with. Most people will tell you to stay away from a sprung puck - it could go either way. You just have to consider the shock you are going to be giving the disc whether or not the risk of the springs coming out is going to be a huge issue. If you do light track duty, don't worry about it. If you lunch it hard weekend after weekend, you'll probably want to go unsprung and just get used to the chatter.

My time with a 6puck hasn't done any havoc on the mating surfaces. For a 4 puck, I cannot comment.

 

[92nolatist]

Ill only be doing some light to moderate track use. What would some pros and cons of having an unsprung disk be?

Oh, and I welded a nut to that master cylinder pedal fork adjuster thing . Im gonna put that in now and adjust my pedal height so I can get maximum throw and obviously adjust the master as well and see where that leads me.

 

[Nekid]

pro is not having to worry about the springs breaking loose and causing all sorts of havoc.

con is more chattering/stuttering when trying to slip/engage smoothly for dd'ing. Only really noticeable in first anyways.

 

[ed1380]

No chattering when slipping here.

 

[92nolatist]

I got a little more disengagement with the welded nut, but not much.
Has anyone broken an unsprung disk, or stripped the splines off of the hub or input shaft?

 

[spadepro22]

Let me know if you want to just try out a unsprung. I have a 6 puck laying around somewhere.