Another Clutch thread, ACT vs Southbend, sprung/unsprung...

[GSLENK]

Seems like im starting to overpower my oem clutch with 3k miles on it. Ill drive slow through the winter and get ready for a clutch install this spring. I plan on getting: clutch, pressure plate, fork/ball, TOB (mitsu), and possibly flywheel (not aluminum)

I did a lot of reading and came across the act spring failure thread, has me scared of springs so I have a few questions that i would like cleared up.

BTW my car for now is essentially stock 92, AWD. I will eventually like to run a hx35 (maybe throw in a 16g until then...) once i get a lot more starting mods, but i probably wont see that turbo for a year or 2 while im building up for it... So maybe I should go with a lighter clutch for 2 years and switch in due time?

-SPRUNG/ UNSPRUNG?
Its doesnt seem like those springs do much, I dont care if dirveability is reduced slightly. I DO CARE IF ITS GOING TO RAPE MY TRANSMISSION! I dont care for clutches that spit out springs also. I know dumping the clutch = break sh!t, I wont be doing that. So for longetivity is it Sprung (easier on components) or Unsprung (no risk of failure from spitting springs)

-Pressure vs Friction:
Hypothetically which is better more frinction disc, with less pressure, or more pressure and less friction or more pressure, more friction? Am I correct of these trade offs? ie. More pressure = crank bearing wear, more friction = more surface wear? Whats a good compromise? Iguess im in the rang of 2100 and 2600...

-Long lasting materials?

I have narrowed a few options:

Clutches:
-SOUTHBEND TZ/FE seems like this will last the longest, drive smoothest, and hold power nicely.
-SBC Sprung kevlar (alternative to SB TZ/FE)
-ACT UNSPPRUNG street disc, or 6puck (dont want springs springing around... would this be too harsh on anything? ie, trans/driveline?)

Pressure Plates:
Cant go wrong in this area? seems like no one has anything bad to say, just get something with my desired pressure rating and call it a day? maybe do some brand matching? I want to stay as light as possible, like 2100 so I dont premature kill my thrust bearings, or should I not be worried (stock 6 bolt)?
End up going either act 2100/2600 or Southbend SS

Flywheel:
With only 25k on the factory flywheel, should I just resurface? I was also thinking of possibly going the ACT street light. general consensus seems to be dont go aluminum, especially for long/hard runs...

And at the marginal cost, I might as well do Fork, Pivot ball, TOB while im in there, anything else?

My ideal setup so far would be Southbend tz/fe, SS PP, and factory resurface Flywheel. I think this would give me the most reliability/performance for the cost.

My cheap setup would be ACT 2600 kit with UNSPRUNG street disc, anything wrong with that? TIA

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

You would be happiest and most satisfied with the Southbend clutch setup. Smooth engagement, doesn't feel more than stockish, but has the bite when you really need it. If you need proof of it's reliability look into Tim Zimmers' vehicle.

It may cost a bit more than the others (Save for ACT), but you'll be sure to be happy with it. A Surface, TOB, Fork, Pivot Ball, and the clutch application with proper break-in will do wonders for you.

 

[agentorange313]

Sounds like your goal is going to be met in two stages, like you said below, if you are waiting a year between turbos or taking a year to build while driving, I would start out with a clutch designed for DD, as apposed to holding power(not to be said that clutches that are designed for holding power are not streetable, its all about preference). I think you need a HP goal in mind, with a corresponding estimate of torque to decide what clutch is best for you.

Seems like im starting to overpower my oem clutch with 3k miles on it. Ill drive slow through the winter and get ready for a clutch install this spring. I plan on getting: clutch, pressure plate, fork/ball, TOB (mitsu), and possibly flywheel (not aluminum)

I did a lot of reading and came across the act spring failure thread, has me scared of springs so I have a few questions that i would like cleared up.

BTW my car for now is essentially stock 92, AWD. I will eventually like to run a hx35 (maybe throw in a 16g until then...) once i get a lot more starting mods, but i probably wont see that turbo for a year or 2 while im building up for it... So maybe I should go with a lighter clutch for 2 years and switch in due time?

-SPRUNG/ UNSPRUNG?
Its doesnt seem like those springs do much, I dont care if dirveability is reduced slightly. I DO CARE IF ITS GOING TO RAPE MY TRANSMISSION! I dont care for clutches that spit out springs also. I know dumping the clutch = break sh!t, I wont be doing that. So for longetivity is it Sprung (easier on components) or Unsprung (no risk of failure from spitting springs)

Those springs, that make the clutch sprung, allow for rotational movement of the clutch disc when engaging. This allows for a smoother engagement. This is one of those preference issues, I have driven sprung and unsprung clutches, and prefer the engagement of the sprung clutch for daily driving. You are right about excessive force on the clutch will damage it quicker and can result in possible spring failure, but if you are daily/spirited driving, there is no reason a sprung clutch would not work for you.

-Pressure vs Friction:
Hypothetically which is better more frinction disc, with less pressure, or more pressure and less friction or more pressure, more friction? Am I correct of these trade offs? ie. More pressure = crank bearing wear, more friction = more surface wear? Whats a good compromise? Iguess im in the rang of 2100 and 2600...

They go hand and hand. This is how many people are running street style discs with high pressure pressure plates. There are also a lot of factors involved, more friction means more heat, so you need a material that dissipates heat and doesn't weld itself to the pressure plate. Both of the factors will determine how "streetable" you clutch is. With the sacrifice of dampening material, kevlar organic face, and going to iron, steel or ceramic, will make the engagement faster. Increased pressure plate does have the potential for causing crank failure. A good compromise is up to the driver, thats where everyone is, if it was possible to hold 900hp with a a street disc, everyone would be doing it, you have to determine where you draw the line for you car being streetable, or a track monster.


-Long lasting materials?

A lot has to do with how you drive the car, my uncle babys the crap out of his clutch has about 85k and it still holds firm. Just like brakes, there is a coefficient of friction between two surfaces, this is determined by what materials are within each of the mating surfaces. The idea is that materials with a high coefficient of friction wear faster and materials that have a low coefficient of friction wear slower, I am sure there are exceptions.

I have narrowed a few options:

Clutches:
-SOUTHBEND TZ/FE seems like this will last the longest, drive smoothest, and hold power nicely.
-SBC Sprung kevlar (alternative to SB TZ/FE)
-ACT UNSPPRUNG street disc, or 6puck (dont want springs springing around... would this be too harsh on anything? ie, trans/driveline?)

Those are all good choices. TZ/OFE kits are both in your goals range. I personally run the kevlar and love it. Great street feel, and it holds damn well, but this was the clutch I choose because my goals were different, I didn't need a clutch that need to handle more than 300hp. If you check, the south bend clutches also have springs in them. I think less depending on what friction disc, but they still have springs. If the clutch is made well, not being abused and used above its recommended limits, then you should have a problem where "springs springing around". If you check TMZ's page South Bend also makes solid hubs

Pressure Plates:
Cant go wrong in this area? seems like no one has anything bad to say, just get something with my desired pressure rating and call it a day? maybe do some brand matching? I want to stay as light as possible, like 2100 so I dont premature kill my thrust bearings, or should I not be worried (stock 6 bolt)?
End up going either act 2100/2600 or Southbend SS

Southbend SS would be a great choice, or the 2100.

Flywheel:
With only 25k on the factory flywheel, should I just resurface? I was also thinking of possibly going the ACT street light. general consensus seems to be dont go aluminum, especially for long/hard runs...

If price isn't a factor I would get a Fidanza Aluminum flywheel, 9lbs compared to the stock 20lbs. You are going to feel the difference in throttle response, 11lbs is a lot to shave off. They use steel friction face so you can just replace it instead of resurfacing them. The stock flywheel will serve you well for your current set up, I would just have it resurfaced again when you install the clutch.

And at the marginal cost, I might as well do Fork, Pivot ball, TOB while im in there, anything else?

Retaining clip, and I would replace the slave, but thats just me.

My ideal setup so far would be Southbend tz/fe, SS PP, and factory resurface Flywheel. I think this would give me the most reliability/performance for the cost.

^sounds like you figured out where you stand on which clutch you should get. Just gotta decide tz/fe, neither are a bad choice

My cheap setup would be ACT 2600 kit with UNSPRUNG street disc, anything wrong with that? TIA

It seems like you have your head in the right place when considering all the options.

Act and South Bend have both proved themselves in our community. I feel like whenever there is a "what clutch" thread, there has never been anything mentioned except South Bend, Act, sometimes ebay ones, and the fidanze 4.3 for a while.

I would go with your ideal set up, seems to me you did your research

 

[GSLENK]

I dont see anyone running a 2100 six puck for example, wouldnt that be easier on the thrust bearing while still achieving the same grip as a street disc 2600?

Would running my ideal setup in an "underpowered" car be a waste of clutch or would it wear less if drivin relatively conservatively?

Im still not clear on sprung vs unsprung, I can see how it makes engagement easier, but is that going to be hard on the trans also? I would personaly rather have a more reliable clutch, even if it is a bit harder, as long as it doesnt damage anything because its easier to replace a failed clutch than a failed transmission, (even if only marginally...)

I could see how a solid hub would make syncros maybe? Those springs couls give enough to allow gears to line up easier, or is that not how it works? are they strictly there for driveability. I can also see how they would reduce driveline shock, and if thats the case, being AWD I should probably keep springs in and take the chance of springs bouncing around.

 

[agentorange313]

I dont see anyone running a 2100 six puck for example, wouldnt that be easier on the thrust bearing while still achieving the same grip as a street disc 2600?

Would running my ideal setup in an "underpowered" car be a waste of clutch or would it wear less if drivin relatively conservatively?

Im still not clear on sprung vs unsprung, I can see how it makes engagement easier, but is that going to be hard on the trans also? I would personaly rather have a more reliable clutch, even if it is a bit harder, as long as it doesnt damage anything because its easier to replace a failed clutch than a failed transmission, (even if only marginally...)

I could see how a solid hub would make syncros maybe? Those springs couls give enough to allow gears to line up easier, or is that not how it works? are they strictly there for driveability. I can also see how they would reduce driveline shock, and if thats the case, being AWD I should probably keep springs in and take the chance of springs bouncing around.

Every clutch should be reliable, clutches fail when they are misused or applied to the wrong application. Having a clutch that engages more aggressively than the stock one does not mean it will be more reliable. There are exceptions of course, poor QC can cause reliability problem.

What is there not to get about sprung and unsprung clutches? Like I said above the springs allow for a smoother engagement, how would this cause more shock on the transmission. I would think that a clutch that grabs like an on/off switch would cause more shock to the drivetrain. If you are worried about breaking things in your trans, then I wouldn't worry about the clutch but have the trans rebuilt to your HP application. It sounds like you want to run high HP app with a glass trans.

I think you have a misconception on how the clutch system works, with regard to that last paragraph you typed. I dont quite understand what you typed, but solid hubs have the characteristics of engaging faster, less slipping of the clutch. This would overall cause more shock to the drivetrain. If you synchros are not "lining up" (which they do not have to, synchros are designed with teeth that allows them to engage at high rotational speeds) its a completely different problem. The springs allow for a slight slipping of the clutch to allow for more comfortable engagement.

Your ideal set up will work for you with your current set up, but you were talking about upgrade in your first post, so maybe your ideal clutch is not for you. I dont know you time frame in which you want to upgrade, so I cant tell you if you ideal set up is good for you right now, in a month you can switch from a 16g to a holset, and I would consider getting a new clutch for the new HP application.

What are your goals, work toward a goal and choose a clutch for that set up.

 

[GSLENK]

Ok I was a little vague in my last post. I was trying to summarize all the points made, (along with ones I read before)

Sprung:
Easier engagement, less shock on drivetrain, doesnt affect syncros.

Unsprung:
Tougher engagement, more shock on drivetrain?, doesnt affect syncros.

Is the engagement so different that it cannot be compensated for? (feather the clutch a little more for unsprung)

Im just trying to seperate important, and negligible factors. When It comes down to it, Im trying to decide:

1) Is Unsprung (no risk of popped springs) worth the damage of additional drivetrain shock, or can that shock be compensated for in driving style? Any other differences in sprung vs unsprung, or is that it (drivetrain shock + engagement)?

2) Will the clamping force of a 2600 PP be too hard on the thrust bearing and lead to premature failure?

 

[agentorange313]

Ok I was a little vague in my last post. I was trying to summarize all the points made, (along with ones I read before)

Sprung:
Easier engagement, less shock on drivetrain, doesnt affect syncros.

Unsprung:
Tougher engagement, more shock on drivetrain?, doesnt affect syncros.

Is the engagement so different that it cannot be compensated for? (feather the clutch a little more for unsprung)

Im just trying to seperate important, and negligible factors. When It comes down to it, Im trying to decide:

1) Is Unsprung (no risk of popped springs) worth the damage of additional drivetrain shock, or can that shock be compensated for in driving style? Any other differences in sprung vs unsprung, or is that it (drivetrain shock + engagement)?

2) Will the clamping force of a 2600 PP be too hard on the thrust bearing and lead to premature failure?

Cool, thanks for clearing that up.

The sprung vs unsprung is not about tougher engagement, its about the quickness or the speed of the engagement. Sprung clutches slip a little so engagement takes a bit longer, fractions of seconds in some case. unsprung does not allow for this extra movement, thus catching faster, less forgiveness. If the engagement is quicker, times where you dont feather you clutch, there is more of a shock on the drivetrain, not matter what you are going to put stress on the drivetrain. If you suck at driving and drop the clutch, yea you are going to most likely break something. I know our 20 year old driver trains are weakening, and definitely warrant a rebuild, bushings and all.

If you notice, act sprung clutches have 4 springs, south bend have 2 but have damping material in the others, this give a good medium between stock and above stock.

Here's some info on clutches, a good read:
RRE's Clutch And Flywheel Tech Info
RRE's Eclipse Clutch Pedal Effort and Throw Out Bearing Pressure

 

[GSLENK]

Cool, thanks for clearing that up.

If the engagement is quicker, times where you dont feather you clutch, there is more of a shock on the drivetrain, not matter what you are going to put stress on the drivetrain. I know our 20 year old driver trains are weakening, and definitely warrant a rebuild, bushings and all.

I wasnt thinking about the fact that I will eventually be abusing the clutch and the springs will help save me (taking away from the instantaneous impulse shock. cant believe i wanst thinking that. In that case, I think taking the risk of springs popping out (mostly brand dependent...) I think ill be okay with SPRUNG.

Now, about that clamping force, I know a 6bolt is less prone to crankwalk... at least from the factory. But how much clamping force can a thrust bearing take? also if higher clamping force becomes necessary, Is there a better thrust bearing to counter the added force? (that just sounds odd so im guessing no... but i dont know for sure)

 

[bmoha7321]

You can break any clutch quickly with an aftermarket TOB. They can literally break instantly like mine did.
At relatively low hp 330whp I blew the springs out of my act street disc and my ACT 2100 was slipping beforehand.
I'm currently running ACT Streetlite Cro moly flywheel, ACT 2600 and unsprung 4 puck. On the old ACT TOB it felt harsh. That TOB failed within a hundred miles. In the process it killed my Brand new ACT 2600 pp. I have nothing but good things to say about ACT. My Talon sat for over a year before I was able to inspect the clutch assembly. Finding a butchered ACT TOB and a mangled ACT 2600 pp. I called them, sent the parts into them and had a new ACT TOB (which I chucked in the trash,) new ACT 2600 pp and they put new friction pads on my unsprung 4 puck.
The car is up and running again with an OEM TOB and feels nice and smooth.
You can slip an unsprung 4 puck. I don't know about a unsprung 6 puck.
I won't run an other than OEM TOB again and I won't run a sprung friction disc either.
I would have no problems running an unsprung Southbend full face Kevlar disc. They are very proven.
My friend has had very very good luck with his Xact stage 4 clutch. It utilizes a unsprung 4 puck. Good stuff.
I like the ACT cromoly flywheel. Nice and light and burly. No muss no fuss. Steel is real.
I will stick with ACT for now. I was very impressed with their customer service. Technically my clutch was out of warranty due to the timeframe and they still stood behind their product.

 

[GSLENK]

I am most certainly going with a mitsu TOB. no doubt. I read what goes on with others like yours. How good is the OEM flywheel? I dont wanna dump 200+ on another if I can get away with a proper resurface.

 

[bmoha7321]

It's 19 years old. . But seriously it's very heavy. I dropped 22 pounds when I went to the ACT setup. That's a HUGE difference. Too much to pass up!Throttle response is much much better.

 

[agentorange313]

It's 19 years old. . But seriously it's very heavy. I dropped 22 pounds when I went to the ACT setup. That's a HUGE difference. Too much to pass up!Throttle response is much much better.

I am pretty sure the stock flywheel is around 20 lbs, actually its more lik 19lbs according to RRE, how did you drop 22 when you went to the act setup? Do you mean total, lighten flywheel, clutch disc, and pressure plate?

Yes I agree the throttle response is much better. As I mentioned above, going from the stock to a 9lbs aluminum was a considerable and noticeable difference.

The stock flywheel will serve you find if you have it resurfaced when you get a new clutch disc and pressure plate. There is nothing wrong with the stock one, in this case.

 

[bmoha7321]

Yes. ACT 4 puck unsprung is very light. 3&1/2 pounds max. There's nothing to it. 2G AWD flywheel weighed 22.5. If memory serves. Not sure about 1G. I remember I weighed everything and the ACT setup including street lite flywheel was 22 pounds lighter. The ACT 2600 pp also weighed less than the ACT 2100 pp which was lighter than the stock pp.

 

[agentorange313]

Yes. ACT 4 puck unsprung is very light. 3&1/2 pounds max. There's nothing to it. 2G AWD flywheel weighed 22.5. If memory serves. Not sure about 1G. I remember I weighed everything and the ACT setup including street lite flywheel was 22 pounds lighter. The ACT 2600 pp also weighed less than the ACT 2100 pp which was lighter than the stock pp.

Okay cool, I thought you had found another way to drop more weight off the rotating assembly than possible. I was excited .

I just want to make sure that the OP knows we were talking about two different things, I was just talking about flywheel weight, and you are talking flywheel pressure plate and disc.

 

[GSLENK]

Im not too concerned about flywheel weight at this point... I dont really know yet of it is worth the ~$250 for faster throttle response. I dont race yet. And I wont until i have a safety net expense account going for the car.

But what I really want to know, is how long can people run these high pressure plates before it starts to effect the crank. or is that not a problem and im imagining stuff again?

I really dont want to start a thread, asking: "how long have you run your 2600 PP?" Has it messed up your engine?.

It seems like it should be ok, since i have looked up countless profiles and I see what people are running. I just dont know how long they have been running them that way. Once I am confident a stronger PP will not harm my engine, or shortedn its service life, then I will have my decision made.

 

[GSLENK]

Im thinking about going with an act 2100 street dics kit for now. and then upgrade till it starts slipping. then throw in a SBC tz/fe or ceramic. are all pressure plates the same when it comes down to pressure? is a 2200 lb plate a 2200 lb plate? that way all i need when it is time, is the clutch and the flywheel resurface.

 

[bmoha7321]

I ran an ACT 2100 for 6 years or so with full street disc. Sounds like a long time but I don't drive that car much. As soon as I put on the FP BigT28 and tuned it... it slung it's springs.

If you're planning on going to a 16G or larger like you were saying just skip ahead to the ACT 2600. Don't bother with the 2100. Especially if you killed a stock clutch in 3k.
Earlier you asked if ACT 2100 with 6 puck would be the same as 2600 with street disc. The answer would be no. The ACT 2600 will hold more. Engagement will slightly different as the puck material is different than the material used on the street disc. The puck material is more aggressive than what is used on the street disc. I'd say if get slip with a 2100 with street disc you'd be prone to get slip with a 2100 with 6 puck. Others might chime in. 2600 will hold up to 16G just fine.

To some guys doin the clutch on an AWD Dsm is not a big job. They've done bunch and are used to it. I think theres a lot involved. And cracking lose some of those bolts for for the first time in 20 years can be a real bear. So I prefer to save up my money and get exactly what I want instead of planning it in stages.
Also plan on new clutch master and slave cylinders. Even a ACT 2100 caused both mine to fail within a couple weeks.
I would not hesitate to use any products from Southbend. If I didn't go with my unsprung 4 puck I'd go with a Southbend unsprung full face Kevlar disc. Good stuff.
You can slip a 4 puck. After getting used to it I can drive my AWD DSM with ACT 2600 and unsprung 4 puck as smoothly as I did with ACT 2100 and sprung street disc. You get used to it very quickly.
Some have said that you can slip a 4 puck but not a 6. I have no experience with a 6 puck. I love my unsprung 4 puck.

 

[GSLENK]

Good to know. your right about modding once. how many miles were put on in those 6 years? and how was the wear?

Im guessing its the fluid that deteriorates the master/slave, and not actual use? So there is absolutly no point in getting junkyard cylinders... I assume these are readily available on oem/similar websites. is rock auto an option for said cylinders?

 

[ebonyswan]

I run an act2100 with a sprung 6 puck - same combo as several others in my neck of the woods with 400hp or so cars. Everyone's happy at this point - just throwing that out there.

 

[____Kurt____]

This will be the Last time I run a sprung clutch

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Now this is my new setup
PowerTrain Technologies 7.25" twin disk

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[foxyspyder01gt]

i use to run the 6 pluck unsprung clutch form act i lvoed it and when my friends tried driving it they would stall it 4 out of 5 times. This friend owned a 86 ford 4 speed truck. I would laugh my ass of jump in and never stall it once

 

[bmoha7321]

Never ordered anything from Rockauto.

 

[GSLENK]

This will be the Last time I run a sprung clutch


PowerTrain Technologies 7.25" twin disk


And i was just getting over the ACT failure thread.... that is a sexy Twin disc. Definately out of my budget and power req's for now.

F$#%^#%^$%^@ Back to square one i guess... no springs?

I swear i saw act makes an unsprung street disc, was I hallucinating?

Never ordered anything from Rockauto.

I have personally only ordered cheap brake pads. prices beat autozone's cheap ish, and you get decent quality stuff for a better price. I have a feeling they are not an oem distributor, so I might have to stray. I would say they are like the online only version of NAPA, not the best, but different than the worst...

 

[bmoha7321]

They do make an unsprung street disc. I'll never run a sprung friction disc again.

 

[GSLENK]

"SAME AS WHAT MY STREET DISC DID"

Whats the same as what? im sorry but that seems a bit vague. I assume you are talking about the sprung version also? Now that I have more people in here, what are your thoughts of a 2600 lb pressure plate and an UNSPRUNG disc in a mostly stock car, beginning its journey out of stockdom? (and into the 16g world, possibly hx35 world in a year or 2)

am i going to be hurting my trans? It theoretically have a lot of life left in it... has less than 30k on it.