ALL MOTOR! Naturally Aspirated Hybrid Poject

[noodlez60]

hmmm... i dont remember putting 2 sets of ######'s in there....

 

[na90dsm]

cmr wers abotu 750-800 for custom cams. polk performance has specs somewhere

head work was a stage 1 head with runers left along but over sized valves and a 5 angle valve job done. 1mm oversized valves to be exact thats abotu 1k

bottom end was 1g big rods, custom je pistons and a stock crank butchered. crnka was 650, rods were free since i have em allready, pistons were 699

block was however much it needed to be bored honed ect, decked and checked for cracks

injectors were liek 300cc rci injectors, id have to do the math again but they werent over 300 cc i beleive, ill look up old info. injectors were liek $250

intake mani was a magnus

injen intake

75mm tb

maf translator

dsmlink

underdrivepulleys

fuel rail was stock

walbro 190lph

thats abtou it everythign else was stock replacemtn parts or small rebuild stuff liek bearings and such.

you could go all out and use groden rods, and use same crank and pistons i said and get more revs, youll need ffwd mad springs, ti retainers and youll be able to rev otu to 9k plus put down 250hp in n/a trim. look up the thread:: n/a all motor alternative. i have all info there.

gg?

 

[dr1665]

As a major player in the all motor DSM community, I have to say that this last post of yours is horrible. Are you posting while strapped to a bed at the methadone clinic? While riding shottie with Tommi Makinen? While drunk? What the hell, man? Make a little effort...

cmr wers abotu 750-800 for custom cams. polk performance has specs somewhere

$750-$800 for custom cams? What sort of specs are you talking about, here, and why would anyone want them? As an all motor DSMer, I'm curious.

head work was a stage 1 head with runers left along but over sized valves and a 5 angle valve job done. 1mm oversized valves to be exact thats abotu 1k

"Stage 1?" Who's "Stage 1?" What makes this portwork worthwhile? "Runners left long?" Wouldn't that be the manifold? Don't you say elsewhere in this gibberish you call writing that it's a Magnus intake? Obviously, the longer runner length would allow for more power lower down in the RPM range.

bottom end was 1g big rods, custom je pistons and a stock crank butchered. crnka was 650, rods were free since i have em allready, pistons were 699

"Custom" pistons? How so? What CR? I have "custom" pistons, made to order and the were only $500 from Venolia. 10.5:1 CR. How did you "butcher" a crankshaft? Why?

block was however much it needed to be bored honed ect, decked and checked for cracks

Duh.

injectors were liek 300cc rci injectors, id have to do the math again but they werent over 300 cc i beleive, ill look up old info. injectors were liek $250

I think you're on target here, but it's hard to figure out just what you're trying to say.

intake mani was a magnus

Anything special about it?

75mm tb

So, you opened up the head to flow massive amounts of air, installed this ginormous TB, yet kept the runners on the intake mani long? Doesn't make any sense.

maf translator

Since my ECU uses a MAP, tell me why you needed this. I can understand a MAFT when going VTA with a BOV, but on an engine that won't see any boost...?

dsmlink

Well, that makes some sense.

underdrivepulleys

So does this.

fuel rail was stock

You don't do too bad when it's something simple.

thats abtou it everythign else was stock replacemtn parts or small rebuild stuff liek bearings and such.

You keep referring to all this in the past tense. You did all this and what results did you get? Where are the results? What happened to the car? If you already had this done, why do you remember prices, but not pertinent information that might be useful? It doesn't matter what it cost to "butcher" a crankshaft. It matters what you did to the thing. Same goes for anything custom like pistons or rods.

I'd go back through this thread and try to figure out what the hell you're trying to talk about, but damn. I don't think it's worth my time.

you could go all out and use groden rods, and use same crank and pistons i said and get more revs, youll need ffwd mad springs, ti retainers and youll be able to rev otu to 9k plus put down 250hp in n/a trim. look up the thread:: n/a all motor alternative. i have all info there.

What? You're dreaming. 250hp NA? Unless you've done that and can back it up, you've just made a cluster#### of jumbled benchracing and made every all motor DSMer look dumber for being associated with you.

 

[anubis]

As a major player in the all motor DSM community, I have to say that this last post of yours is horrible. Are you posting while strapped to a bed at the methadone clinic? While riding shottie with Tommi Makinen? While drunk? What the hell, man? Make a little effort...

i agree. that was one sloppy post, and you made no point. your other posts seemed to make a lot more sense. please go back and correct that mess of a post. use the damn spell check button for F's sake!

na90dsm, you sent me a pm a while back saying you had all kinds of info on how to put a na dsm well over 300hp. why don't you just post it here. if that crap up there ^ was it, i don't buy it.

i personally have lost interest in doing this for two reasons: 1) i have a turbo laser now that i'm rebuilding and 2) i have a 240sx that needs an sr20det. i'm still holding on to that g4cs block for future use, but it will be turbo charged. i'm still interested in seeing a beefed up non-turbo, so please keep doing this stuff. however, i don't want to see this thread become some punk kid's wet-dream. let's keep the posts factual and to the point. only post what you are going to do or what you have done. if you have some crazy idea on a setup, you better have some research behind it to back you up.

thanks guys and gals.

 

[dr1665]

na90dsm, you sent me a pm a while back saying you had all kinds of info on how to put a na dsm well over 300hp. why don't you just post it here. if that crap up there ^ was it, i don't buy it.

It hasn't been done. There isn't even a stock displacement NT making 200hp yet. Period.

i personally have lost interest in doing this for two reasons: 1) i have a turbo laser now that i'm rebuilding and 2) i have a 240sx that needs an sr20det.

Aw, man! Damnit. As long as there aren't any actually fast cars around, being all motor feels pretty quick! I'm struggling with the all motor game myself at this point. It's been three very expensive years (I could have bought a beater 1G, built it, tuned it, and be running 12s for what I've invested thus far in the 420A.), but I've got GT28RS fever. The allure of the potato is calling my name. I will definitely complete my all motor plans before the turbo components are installed. I figure I've invested too much time and heartache into her to not stay the course a while longer.

Still, sounds like you've got a couple fun projects to keep you busy this winter.

i'm still interested in seeing a beefed up non-turbo, so please keep doing this stuff.

I will. Like I said, it would be a waste of almost three years and several thousand dollars to just slap a snail on the biatch and not even see what she's made of. I'm getting my windshield replaced this month and will try to get out to the track (my first time) with her sometime in October for some baseline, completely untuned, runs.

i don't want to see this thread become some punk kid's wet-dream. let's keep the posts factual and to the point. only post what you are going to do or what you have done. if you have some crazy idea on a setup, you better have some research behind it to back you up.

Exactly. There is a lot of good theory in this thread on this page alone. It would be a shame to see it diluted with bullshit bench racing and the like. Things like nasty CRs, evil cams, and borderline-nuclear-meltdown tuning are what it's going to boil down to. All motor DSM is not for the weak of spirit. To spend more money to go slower than a stock turbo DSM only to push your engine to the very limit of annihilation in the hopes of just a dozen ponies takes some serious balls.

We are a strange lot.

 

[anubis]

oh, i remember talking to you a few times during the summer. good to see they made you a wise man. congrats. as far as my former na project... it just wasn't meant to be for me.

I'm struggling with the all motor game myself at this point. It's been three very expensive years (I could have bought a beater 1G, built it, tuned it, and be running 12s for what I've invested thus far in the 420A.)

i'm sorry for you man. hopefully it will all be worth it when you're done. i never got a chance, and probably never will, to put that kind of time and money into my non-turbo.

I will definitely complete my all motor plans before the turbo components are installed. I figure I've invested too much time and heartache into her to not stay the course a while longer.

so how much more do you have to do with it? i take it you didn't get that beast to the shootout then? i didn't make it period. but from what i've heard, i didn't miss much. rain again, and a bunch of DSMers acting like assholes. hopefully i'll be able to go again sometime. i read that the city of norwalk was not happy with the hooligans in their town over shootout weekend.

Still, sounds like you've got a couple fun projects to keep you busy this winter.

well, i don't know about this winter. the dsm needs to be on the road within a month. however, on my breaks i'll probably spend some time tweeking it and putting the non-turbo back to semi-stock. the 240, on the other hand, will probably have to wait for a while. those aren't cheap! we (my fiance and i, it's really her car)allready sank 3g's on the purchase and repairing the back window. we've got to save up about $5k for an sr20det w/ manual and lsd, s14 conversion (that's going to take a lot of time too because i think i'll have to make the kit myself), and a 5 lug conversion (hubs, brakes, wheels, tires). that's probably going to take a couple of years. here's a pic.

All motor DSM is not for the weak of spirit. To spend more money to go slower than a stock turbo DSM only to push your engine to the very limit of annihilation in the hopes of just a dozen ponies takes some serious balls.

We are a strange lot.

well said! if i only had the time and money...

 

[dr1665]

oh, i remember talking to you a few times during the summer. good to see they made you a wise man. congrats. as far as my former na project... it just wasn't meant to be for me.

It's a long, lonley road, man. I know of two other, serious, all motor 2GNTers - one is in RI and the other in Chicago. As for the Wiseman title, well, I figure I'll see what I can do about bringing up the bar in the NT forums here. Management seems pretty cool once you get to know them.

i'm sorry for you man. hopefully it will all be worth it when you're done. i never got a chance, and probably never will, to put that kind of time and money into my non-turbo.

Heh. No reason to feel sorry for me at all. I'm less than $200 away from having everything done. Then I'm going to make her look like new again in time for the Shootout in 2006 before boosting her and finally being done with her in 2007. It will make for a fantastic end to the decade I will have owned her.

so how much more do you have to do with it? i take it you didn't get that beast to the shootout then? i didn't make it period. but from what i've heard, i didn't miss much. rain again, and a bunch of DSMers acting like assholes. hopefully i'll be able to go again sometime. i read that the city of norwalk was not happy with the hooligans in their town over shootout weekend.

I still need to get some cam gears. Aside from finishing the wbO2 and MSnS install to tune her, that's all that's still stock on the engine. Well, the crankshaft is still the same and I rebuilt the orignal block, but it's all been modified in some way.

I did make it to the SO this year. Just left her sitting in a buddy's garage with timing belt issues (tensioner wouldn't hold - by the time we got it back together, the timing would be off again and she wouldn't run). There were definitely a bunch of shenanigans this year in Norwalk, but there always are. I've offered to assist in trying to come up with some sort of BBQ/car show for Saturday night next year to give people something more constructive to do. I'd gladly give up a night of drinking to work at the SO.

well, i don't know about this winter. the dsm needs to be on the road within a month. however, on my breaks i'll probably spend some time tweeking it and putting the non-turbo back to semi-stock. the 240, on the other hand, will probably have to wait for a while. those aren't cheap! we (my fiance and i, it's really her car)allready sank 3g's on the purchase and repairing the back window. we've got to save up about $5k for an sr20det w/ manual and lsd, s14 conversion (that's going to take a lot of time too because i think i'll have to make the kit myself), and a 5 lug conversion (hubs, brakes, wheels, tires). that's probably going to take a couple of years. here's a pic..

There's always something that needs to be done, isn't there? Hang in there and never give up. You'll get there one day. Just set yourself smaller, short term goals. They're easier to achieve and will help keep you recognizing the progress you make towards your final results.

 

[na90dsm]

and now for answers.

#1) the camshafts were custom grind cams doen to custom specs for an all motor setup. the duration, lift and lobe seperation were figured out and are totally custom grinds as nobody stocks all motor cams for a 4g63 n/t.

#2) FFWD stage 1 head, forgot to specify. his stage oen head is stock runners basically just ported. leave the ports alone on the head to keep the port velocity on the head but make the valves bigger to let more into the motor. if you open the ports up and the valves, itll be to much space for to little air. your nto forcing it in your drawing it in.

#3) the pistons i was gonna run and had priced otu were for a race gas motor. not the street motor. i priced otu 13:0:1 compression stock stroke JE pistons for the race motor, and 11:0:1 for the street motor. both were same price since there not off the shelf

butcher crankshaft is from FFWD also. thats a knife edged crankshaft with the trailing end of the crank rounded off rather then being pointed to make less resistance through the oil.

www.FFWDconnection.com

#4) i dunno what i did here either

#5) RCI has a thing on there website you can calculate what cc injectors you will need by typing in a few specs. ill have to go back to a previous thread i was in abotu all motor stuff and do the math again.

#6) just a regular everyday magnus intake. just regular off the shalf magnus no nrtous boss's

#7) 75mmtb will allow more air into the intake and the head but through stock size n/t ports. will have more then enough velocity and will flow very nicely. stock tb will be outflowed by the head and bigger valves because of the lift of the cam. JUST AS AN EXAMPLE, look at the specs for some b18c all motor cams. no so much duration, but lots of lift. you need enough duration to hang the valves open long enough to let the proper amount of airflow into the chamber, but you dont want them open any longer. ill dig up the old thread.

#8) punishment racing had a setup at the time for the n/a dsm. helped alot. user THUNDERSKULL had tested it with good results. it will outflow the stock sensor and would help tuning. sux i think punishment went out of buisness or something??? website wotn work for me.

#9) i added everything i had gatherd information wise and spec wise from this specsheet i had, yes i got rid of the car, yes ti blew up, yes im pissed. i ended up cracking the block on my car, blowing the tranny up and bendin ga axle. i junked the car and posted about it. i never got the motor together.

when i got done with the specsheet on desktop dyno it said 253 hp. no turbo, no nitrous. i can gather all the information again if needed. i could also build this motor if i got back into it but not sure i really want to.

i didnt do bench racing. i had over a year of information into this specsheet. you can go higher with this hp number. 253hp was on the street motors specs. the race motor had a lto of money into it though, this is why that was liek the wet pants dream motor.

that motors specsheet never got finished. since i found out individual throttle bodies were $2,050 i said ill never build it and gave up.

ANYTHING ELSE????




and i appoligize for my spelling. my keyboard was messed up at the tim eof that post and i suck at typing. i think i did a littl ebetter this time. any questions post em. ill dig up the info i had posted in the old thread and post up a link.

dr1665, 300hp is not to far a stretch for a n/a motor. but it will never be streetable, and it will be way to damn expensive for most people. if you wish to chat about this i can back up my statements

 

[na90dsm]

heres a good thread

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32727

THATS THE THREAD. I FOUND IT. 1G ALL MOTOR ALTERNATIVE. READ THAT AND ALL WILL BE ANSWERED.

 

[dr1665]

and now for answers.

Sorta...

#1) the camshafts were custom grind cams doen to custom specs for an all motor setup. the duration, lift and lobe seperation were figured out and are totally custom grinds as nobody stocks all motor cams for a 4g63 n/t.

Specs? "Custom" doesn't mean shit unless you've got detailed specs to share. "Custom" is a word people who don't know what the hell they're talking about throw into discussions to provide gray area where they can hide BS.

#2) FFWD stage 1 head, forgot to specify. his stage oen head is stock runners basically just ported. leave the ports alone on the head to keep the port velocity on the head but make the valves bigger to let more into the motor. if you open the ports up and the valves, itll be to much space for to little air. your nto forcing it in your drawing it in.

This makes some sense. Sound theory. Whether its been proven or not is beside the point.

#3) the pistons i was gonna run

Going to run is not the same as did run. Furthermore, custom pistons are not cost prohibitive when compared to the cost of new forged pistons.

butcher crankshaft is from FFWD also. thats a knife edged crankshaft with the trailing end of the crank rounded off rather then being pointed to make less resistance through the oil.

Rounding off the trailing edge of the counter-weight would increase turbulence, not reduce it. To be the most aerodynamic, a surface will have the least frontal area and then smoothly blend the flow together at the end. Did you actually have this crankshaft or just talk about ordering it?

#5) RCI has a thing on there website you can calculate what cc injectors you will need by typing in a few specs. ill have to go back to a previous thread i was in abotu all motor stuff and do the math again.

The calculations for determining injector flow requirements are not something new or mysterious. They start with a realistic idea of the horsepower you will be producing in the end. 300cc/min might not be a bad number for those kinds of HP number plans, but the idea is to have a real need for them before installing them.

#7) 75mmtb will allow more air into the intake and the head but through stock size n/t ports. will have more then enough velocity and will flow very nicely. stock tb will be outflowed by the head and bigger valves because of the lift of the cam. JUST AS AN EXAMPLE, look at the specs for some b18c all motor cams. no so much duration, but lots of lift. you need enough duration to hang the valves open long enough to let the proper amount of airflow into the chamber, but you dont want them open any longer. ill dig up the old thread.

Sounds like something you would never drive on the street. Power band up in the stratosphere imo.

#8) punishment racing had a setup at the time for the n/a dsm. helped alot. user THUNDERSKULL had tested it with good results. it will outflow the stock sensor and would help tuning. sux i think punishment went out of buisness or something??? website wotn work for me.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. At best, I suspect it has something to do with 4G63 air/fuel metering.

#9) i added everything i had gatherd information wise and spec wise from this specsheet i had, yes i got rid of the car, yes ti blew up, yes im pissed. i ended up cracking the block on my car, blowing the tranny up and bendin ga axle. i junked the car and posted about it. i never got the motor together.

Never got the motor together + never took it to an actual dyno = no room to talk anything more than theory, whcih is fine until you sell the information as anything more than an idea.

when i got done with the specsheet on desktop dyno it said 253 hp. no turbo, no nitrous. i can gather all the information again if needed. i could also build this motor if i got back into it but not sure i really want to.

Desktop Dyno is a fine tool for playing around, but it's not the real thing. You can not claim X+Y+Z=253hp based on numbers you came up with and threw into an application. I'm sure that, in a perfect world where your numbers matched what you would get in reality, you could very well see 253hp, but until you make it happen, it's benchracing.

i didnt do bench racing. i had over a year of information into this specsheet. you can go higher with this hp number. 253hp was on the street motors specs. the race motor had a lto of money into it though, this is why that was liek the wet pants dream motor.

It is bench racing. You did not own the parts. You did not install the parts. You did not actually build the motor or tune it, and you never put that spec sheet to a real car on a real dyno to see what it would really do. Desktop Dyno is great for seeing how your powerband might shift with different cam profiles or compression ratios, or by altering ignition timing and the like, but virtual numbers are not what counts. When you offer information that is speculative at best and try passing it off as a sure-fire formula for specified results in the real world, you're bench racing and I don't care how much research you did into what could happen. Sorry.

athat motors specsheet never got finished. since i found out individual throttle bodies were $2,050 i said ill never build it and gave up.

That's ridiculous. Were you having them machined as a single unit from billet uranium or something? It's not that difficult or costly to do an ITB set up. Eddy Fierro put one together for his Neon with some used GSXR TBs and it runs great. I doubt it cost him more than $500. All the other costly custom components you planned on and you gave up based on some ludicrous ITB estimate? Come on...

ANYTHING ELSE????

Yes.

and i appoligize for my spelling. my keyboard was messed up at the tim eof that post and i suck at typing. i think i did a littl ebetter this time. any questions post em. ill dig up the info i had posted in the old thread and post up a link.

Continue to work on this. You did better this time, and we appreciate that, but typing is not that hard. Just take your Ridlin and continue to make the effort.

dr1665, 300hp is not to far a stretch for a n/a motor. but it will never be streetable, and it will be way to damn expensive for most people. if you wish to chat about this i can back up my statements

You are correct that this level of tuning would not be streetable. Without any VTEC-like system to provide useable power below 4000rpm as well as get nasty above that, an engine is going to built for top end and nothing more. Pretty much a dyno queen that would be an absolute turd on the street.

I stand by saying 300hp is a pipe dream for a stock displacement NA DSM. When we have yet to see 200whp after ten years, we're not going to see 300 anytime soon. You're talking about doubling the output of people with fully built and tuned engines that have actually been built and dyno tested in the real world. I just don't see it as happening. Sorry.

EDIT:
I don't see how another thread where you were rambling on and on about what will make 200hp at the crank (again, without any proof) and where I and everyone else who's actually doing something about getting there, answers any of the questions I've given you above. If nothing else, all your linking me to that thread does is remind me that you're that guy from last winter. Hang it up, dude. Unless you've got real world proof with real parts on a real car, you're bench racing. It's okay. It happens to the best of us, but just stop now. Okay? Stop.

 

[na90dsm]

read the other thread i dug up.

i cracked my car up over a year ago so i never did any of this. everyoen asks if i did it and i posted the day i junked my car.

read the other thread. everythign is in there.


the injectors were 450cc though. high impedence injectors form rc eng.

 

[dr1665]

read the other thread i dug up.

I don't see how another thread where you were rambling on and on about what will make 200hp at the crank (again, without any proof) and where I and everyone else who's actually doing something about getting there, answers any of the questions I've given you above. If nothing else, all your linking me to that thread does is remind me that you're that guy from last winter. Hang it up, dude. Unless you've got real world proof with real parts on a real car, you're bench racing. It's okay. It happens to the best of us, but just stop now. Okay? Stop.

 

[na90dsm]

better idea

you go on aim right now and well discuss this. i got your aim allready form your profile.

well discuss what you have doen to your and what i had doen to mine. well go from there. this is turnign into a pissing contest and messin up this thread. lets settle this pretty much as close to in person as i tgets

 

[na90dsm]

im waiting

 

[dr1665]

better idea

you go on aim right now and well discuss this. i got your aim allready form your profile.

well discuss what you have doen to your and what i had doen to mine. well go from there. this is turnign into a pissing contest and messin up this thread. lets settle this pretty much as close to in person as i tgets

I haven't been on AIM in months. I despise logging into a shit storm of random people "hitting me up" to ask if they can tubo their car or how much boost can they run on stock internals. AIM is lame. This thread will not turn into a pissing match so long as you maintain your composure. The law of the land says no bench racing. Period. The only fault I see in your coments is your insistance upon claiming a list of vague engine modifications will result in 200hp. Unless you have physical proof of those modifications resulting in 200hp in the real world, it is bench racing. There is no other way to see it.

If you want to make suggestions as to what sort of cam profiles will do what to an engine's powerband, or discuss possible ways to modify a crankshaft for less mass or better performance, that is entirely cool with me and I would even go so far as to encourage such discussions, but you just can't throw that 200hp mark out there in any manner other than to suggest mods which might get you headed in that direction. No one knows what it will take, specifically, to achieve 200hp NA. Not until it has been done.

Now, if you want to make this a pissing match and get this perfectly good information locked down so future people can't participate in this thread, you go ahead and bring the drama. I'm only going to continue to correct what you say until moderators arrive to make the call. As an all motor DSMer who has over $6,000 invested into his engine with realistic goals based on experience and discussion with other all motor DSMers and their experience, I'm sticking to my guns. No one should BS and bench race, but it is even more important to those of us who strive to push the limits of our normally aspirated engines, as we are already labeled as outcasts and oddities. We have to police ourselves and that is all I'm doing.

 

[na90dsm]

so then rather talk about it in a private conversation and get this over with youd rather try to be a wiseman and hide behind policy stuff. thats lame.

when you are willign to come and chat about what exactly i had tested on my car as far as exhaust, intake setupd, tuning, drivetrain parts, injector sizes your more then welcome. anyone who has read my other posts in other threads knows exactly what im talkign about.

there is no pissing contest. i have tested things, made acticles on them, done research, reported bad products.

do YOuR research before you step to me.

 

[dr1665]

EDIT:
NM.

Might as well just lock, prune, and/or delete this one now. What a waste of resources.

 

[Ludachris]

As far as I can tell, this thread was supposed to be comments on the original poster's mod list and plans. It wasn't about trying to get X number of horsepower out of a non-turbo 4G63 engine.

All I have to say is, please do not make any claims to what a particular setup will produce unless you yourself have owned the setup and it produced that number. If you do not have first hand experience with the setup you're suggesting, you're just posting a theory, which is basically the same as posting hearsay, which is also considered bench racing. Please stick to real world statistics that have been proven when tossing numbers around.