AGP Delta 60 HTA turbo

[We're on Boost]

If you like to read about new turbos, here is one that I think is worth reading about. If you are T3 or thinking about going T3, and want something just a little bit bigger than a 50 trim or GT3076, combined with current technology aerodynamics, check it out.
This turbo is similar to the T3 FP3076HTA, but with a new turbine wheel that is proprietary to AGP. When FP came out with the evo Red, they designed a new turbine wheel for it, and it seems to work really well. I asked Robert if he would be interested in designing a new turbine wheel to replace the GT30 wheel in the 3076HTA. He said basically, well, yeah, but the cost would be high and he didn't think they would sell enough of them to make it worth while. This is because the Evo guys are going nuts over the larger turbos lately, HTA3582 and bigger. If they want a turbo the size of a 3076 they just buy a Red and bolt it on. Cheaper and easier than going T3, so they bypass the smaller T3 turbos.
A couple months after Robert told me this, whaddya know, AGP announced this HTA Delta 60. They read my mind I guess. I would have bought one by now ( I already have the Shearer manifold) but the banks screwed me over this summer so all big mod plans are on hold for a while!
The Delta 60 is available with ball bearings, or for $500 less with plain bearings.
The SRT forums is a good place to read about the smaller to mid-size T3 turbos. They have gone T3 in a big way thanks to the efforts of AGP and a few others who have made it cheap and easy for them to convert to T3 with complete kits that fit and work.

Oh yeah, minor detail, it appears this turbo with .63 a/r hot side spools quicker than any stage 3 50 trim of the same a/r, and makes more power than any 50 trim of any a/r. Ditto vs the GT3076.

So here are a few links, not many dyno results on this turbo yet so I'll put that one first:

AGP D60 HTA numbers! Bad arse! - SRT Forums - SRT4, SRT6, SRT8, SRT10 & Dodge Forum

Delta 60 HTA = WOW!!!!! - SRT Forums - SRT4, SRT6, SRT8, SRT10 & Dodge Forum

Delta 60 HTA? What the ....??? - SRT Forums - SRT4, SRT6, SRT8, SRT10 & Dodge Forum

 

[JusMX141]

This turbo is similar to the T3 FP3076HTA, but with a new turbine wheel that is proprietary to AGP.

AGP Turbochargers, Inc. :: AGP Turbos :: AGP Delta 60-HTA Turbo

Really? I'm seeing a Stage 3 (T31) and P-Trim turbine as the only options on the main page....either the page needs updated, or their turbines do because that's old technology.


I personally like the statement in the above description:

"With the Twin Ball Bearing option you will get increased durability due to our design that no longer needs a thrust bearing."

Apparently the folks at AGP have never disassembled a Garrett GT center housing.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

Apparently the folks at AGP have never disassembled a Garrett GT center housing.

I personally don't trust anything with AGP after their halfassed design of the RS60. Cheapness doesn't buy quality turbos, you'll do better going after eBay turbos than AGP.

 

[Steve93Talon]

i'd sooner go with an S259.

 

[We're on Boost]

AGP Turbochargers, Inc. :: AGP Turbos :: AGP Delta 60-HTA Turbo

Really? I'm seeing a Stage 3 (T31) and P-Trim turbine as the only options on the main page....either the page needs updated, or their turbines do because that's old technology.


I personally like the statement in the above description:

"With the Twin Ball Bearing option you will get increased durability due to our design that no longer needs a thrust bearing."

Apparently the folks at AGP have never disassembled a Garrett GT center housing.

Their "Stage 3" turbine wheel is a 12 blade wheel and is not the same as the 11 blade stage 3 that has been around forever in 50 trims and whatnot. Their design objective with the 12 blade wheel was earlier spool, without giving up top end. You are probably thinking this is getting something for nothing - defying the laws of physics. I don't think so, it looks to me like it works. I would put it down to progression of technology, same as with the turbine wheel in the evo Red, same as HTA vs GT on the compressor side.

The thrust bearing, I don't know what their bearings look like but obviously there has to be thrust taken somewhere. I would guess 2 angular contact ball bearings back to back for thrust and radial combined at one "end". Or maybe their web site is just plain wrong, which it sometimes is! They, like many of the manufacturing people, don't like the idea of giving away all their design ideas. They just kind of hope that the performance of the product will make it popular.

The P-trim wheel, that is the same old one yes, but they haven't built any with the P trim and I doubt that they will. If you called them up and asked for one built that way they would probably try to talk you out of it. The .82 a/r hot side would probably be a waste too. This turbo is perfect for the 12 blade stage 3 in the .63 a/r T3 housing and that is the only way I would buy it.

I personally don't trust anything with AGP after their halfassed design of the RS60. Cheapness doesn't buy quality turbos, you'll do better going after eBay turbos than AGP.

The Delta 60 is not cheap. With ball bearings it is only a tick cheaper than the FP3076HTA. Without ball bearings you save $500 but it is still not "cheap". I wasn't doing the turbo thing in RS60 days, it may have been lousy for all I know. But AGP has an enthusiastic following among the SRT4 people. Sounds corny but they are the gods of the srt4 world like Dave Buschur is the god of the Evo world. I don't think that would have happened with crummy quality products.

i'd sooner go with an S259.

Hi Steve, yeah I've been following the S256, S258, S259 and the other Borgs ever since the S256 was first advertised by Bullseye. That's what, 3 years now? I thought they were going to be the promise of newer technology delivered. I've talked to Geoff at Full-Race endlessly about the newer Borgs that came out just in the last 2 years. He is a Borg Warner booster now you know. Unfortunately it always looked to me like they were not as spool-a-lishious as what I want. The dyno results Keltalon got just recently are the only Borg dyno results I have seen that I really like. They seem to need that .55 a/r housing to get good spool, then they are not using the compressor side to the fullest. The Borg cast compressor wheels are pretty big and I would guess much heavier than the physically smaller billet compressor wheel in the Delta 60. The dyno shootout in the Honda-tech forum, between the S256 and the GT3076, both T3, was slightly favorable to the GT. Spool was the biggest difference. The srt4 people have been using S256 turbos quite a bit, 2 ways, one way is with the .55a/r Bullseye housing, the other way is with a .63 a/r T3 housing made to fit the Borg hot side. The general opinion over there is that the S256 with the .63 is a bit slow spooling, with the .55 a/r it is a little short on top end and still doesn't spool as early - compared with the Delta 60. There has not been a side by side A-B dyno comparison yet though.
My Shearer "Hot Parts Kit" will be very cool for switching to any other turbo using a T31 type turbine housing, at a later date, or if I just want to try other turbos. The Bullseye hot sides are of course not T31 style. At some point I had to decide which way to go. I chose T31.
If I could finish my build right now I would do it with a Delta 60.

Gary

 

[The Shodan]

considering that the .55A/R uses P-trim, its common that they are not "spoolishish" (or whatever the term is). You can't expect a P-trim to be able to respond to a 11 or 12 bladed turbine wheel. I would see this as not-so-special a reason to just go to this new AGP 60.

 

[We're on Boost]

considering that the .55A/R uses P-trim, its common that they are not "spoolishish" (or whatever the term is). You can't expect a P-trim to be able to respond to a 11 or 12 bladed turbine wheel. I would see this as not-so-special a reason to just go to this new AGP 60.

No, the .55 a/r Bullseye turbos don't use a P-trim wheel. They use a Borg Warner turbine wheel that has about the same diameters as a P-trim though, which is probably what you meant.
A good reason for going with the Delta 60 is that the early users are getting good results right out of the gate. The first person who has put one on a dyno has come up with great results, I'm not just talking about top end. The power starts early and looks great all through the rev band. That's Aaron @ Realtune in Ohio.

 

[Steve93Talon]

The dyno results Keltalon got just recently are the only Borg dyno results I have seen that I really like. They seem to need that .55 a/r housing to get good spool, then they are not using the compressor side to the fullest. The Borg cast compressor wheels are pretty big and I would guess much heavier than the physically smaller billet compressor wheel in the Delta 60. The dyno shootout in the Honda-tech forum, between the S256 and the GT3076, both T3, was slightly favorable to the GT. Spool was the biggest difference.

We just made 707 whp on an S362, with more to go, while seeing full boost around 5k on a 2 liter. The S259 should be able to dip well into the 600s while spooling faster. The only hotsides I'd run on the S200s are the divided T3s, they're designed for the turbos, they'll spool like the small bolt-on and deliver the power potential of the given wheel. I've run both the .55 bolt-on and the .70 open T3 from BEP. I agree the bolt-on is too small, and the .70 made way more power but was definitely laggy for it's size.

I think it's a poor assumption to compare the weight of a billet wheel to a cast wheel of similar size. The BWs use similar technology to the newer billet stuff (some would point out that the ideas for some companies' billet wheels were derived from the BW wheels). Apples to apples, a chunk of forged aluminum isnt going to weigh less than an identical size cast piece, so as long as the same design techniques are there (thinner blades, narrower hub area), the cast wheel can be just as light, if not lighter.

I haven't seen this dyno test you're referring to, but think of 2 things. First, on a Honda they're probably not near the pressure ratios that would've made the BW shine over the GT like it would on a DSM. Second, the BW spooled quicker while giving up practically nothing in power? Sounds like the winner is obvious there. As I said, i'd do the S259 over the 256. In a given hotside, you won't notice the difference in spool but you'll appreciate the increase in choke flow if you're pushing it to the limit.

 

[Turbo Monk3y]

I personally don't trust anything with AGP after their halfassed design of the RS60. Cheapness doesn't buy quality turbos, you'll do better going after eBay turbos than AGP.

Truer words have never been spoken. I went through 3 of those RS60's back when they first came out. They all blew up within 150 miles. AGP is seriously so far behind on technology and good service, I'm frankly amazed at how they are still alive and in business...

 

[We're on Boost]

We just made 707 whp on an S362, with more to go, while seeing full boost around 5k on a 2 liter. The S259 should be able to dip well into the 600s while spooling faster. The only hotsides I'd run on the S200s are the divided T3s, they're designed for the turbos, they'll spool like the small bolt-on and deliver the power potential of the given wheel. I've run both the .55 bolt-on and the .70 open T3 from BEP. I agree the bolt-on is too small, and the .70 made way more power but was definitely laggy for it's size.

I think it's a poor assumption to compare the weight of a billet wheel to a cast wheel of similar size. The BWs use similar technology to the newer billet stuff (some would point out that the ideas for some companies' billet wheels were derived from the BW wheels). Apples to apples, a chunk of forged aluminum isnt going to weigh less than an identical size cast piece, so as long as the same design techniques are there (thinner blades, narrower hub area), the cast wheel can be just as light, if not lighter.

I haven't seen this dyno test you're referring to, but think of 2 things. First, on a Honda they're probably not near the pressure ratios that would've made the BW shine over the GT like it would on a DSM. Second, the BW spooled quicker while giving up practically nothing in power? Sounds like the winner is obvious there. As I said, i'd do the S259 over the 256. In a given hotside, you won't notice the difference in spool but you'll appreciate the increase in choke flow if you're pushing it to the limit.

Thanks for the good comments and I agree with everything you said except near the end, the Honda-tech shootout comment is backwards. Actually the GT3076 spooled consistently about 400 rpm sooner than the S. Top end power was pretty even but you could see that the Borg was creeping ahead as they raised boost. They only went up to, as I remember, 25 psi at which point the Borg was making a few more hp. I'm sure that at 30 psi there would have been more diff. Thing is, it's going to be a long time before I want to run 30 psi. I don't want to do it on a stock internal engine. I know you did! 25psi is just fine with me. If I want to do 30 psi it will be with a bigger turbo, like an HTA3582. That would be an FP HTA. With .63 a/r hotside. But over the next couple years I don't want the extra lag for power I'm not going to use.
In the Honda-tech shootout, the Borg had the .70 a/r and the GT had an .82 a/r hotside. Still the GT spooled much earlier.

The twin-scroll comments, you are probably right. I was the one, you might remember, who brought in the idea a couple years ago that the Borgs should be run twin scroll because their turbine wheels were designed for twin scroll - not single scroll. I didn't think of that all by my little old self, I got that opinion from Geoff. By the way, I would still like to follow the progress on Tort's car, if that is the twin scroll S362 you are talking about. Do you guys have a thread on that?

I do think it is a good guess that the 76mm HTA wheel (as in the Delta 60) is lighter than the S256-259 wheels which are several mm larger on both the inducer and exducer. If you are thinking the Delta 60 compressor wheel is some cheapo Chinese knock-off with poor materials or whatever, No, it is not. AGP buys these wheels from FP. They are made by FP. They are the same one FP uses in the HTA3076. And in reverse rotation of course they are used in the evo Red.

Gary

 

[Steve93Talon]

Thing is, it's going to be a long time before I want to run 30 psi. I don't want to do it on a stock internal engine. I know you did! 25psi is just fine with me. If I want to do 30 psi it will be with a bigger turbo, like an HTA3582. That would be an FP HTA. With .63 a/r hotside. But over the next couple years I don't want the extra lag for power I'm not going to use.
In the Honda-tech shootout, the Borg had the .70 a/r and the GT had an .82 a/r hotside. Still the GT spooled much earlier.

Why set an artificial boost limit because you're on stock internals? Cylinder pressure is all that's relevant. I'd go by torque to tune by, maybe set a limit of 450 ft/lbs or something to be safe. If you're going to go with a larger 35r size turbo later, why not just stick to like an EVO 16g for now?

Also, I'd never waste my money going with a .63 hotside on an HTA35R. It sounds like you're looking to shoot yourself in the foot with power potential over a paranoia of spool times. Whether you end up with a BW or HTA, I'd really consider going twin scroll to get the best of both worlds.

As for the BW in the .70 vs a GT in the .82, you really can't compare them equally as they're not in the same family of housings. The BEP .70 housing is HUGE, most likely at least as large as a .82 Garrett housing internally.

By the way, I would still like to follow the progress on Tort's car, if that is the twin scroll S362 you are talking about. Do you guys have a thread on that?

Here's a link to the thread on DSMlink, if you're not a member there we've been meaning to start a thread here, just haven't gotten to it yet.

ECMTuning User Support Forums

I do think it is a good guess that the 76mm HTA wheel (as in the Delta 60) is lighter than the S256-259 wheels which are several mm larger on both the inducer and exducer.

I happen to have my S256 wheel, I could weigh it if you can find out what the HTA76 wheel weighs.

 

[JusMX141]

If I could finish my build right now I would do it with a Delta 60.

You don't, by chance, work for AGP, do you?

 

[1gDSM4g63]

The Delta 60 is not cheap. With ball bearings it is only a tick cheaper than the FP3076HTA. Without ball bearings you save $500 but it is still not "cheap". I wasn't doing the turbo thing in RS60 days, it may have been lousy for all I know. But AGP has an enthusiastic following among the SRT4 people. Sounds corny but they are the gods of the srt4 world like Dave Buschur is the god of the Evo world. I don't think that would have happened with crummy quality product.

$500 is a lot of $$$ especially if you do the percentage comparison to the FP3076HTA. It's 2/3 of the price!!! just like it was for the RS60 to the equivalent Garrett turbos.

Truer words have never been spoken. I went through 3 of those RS60's back when they first came out. They all blew up within 150 miles. AGP is seriously so far behind on technology and good service, I'm frankly amazed at how they are still alive and in business...

Amen to that, at least someone here knows what I'm talking to about.

 

[The Shodan]

No, the .55 a/r Bullseye turbos don't use a P-trim wheel. They use a Borg Warner turbine wheel that has about the same diameters as a P-trim though, which is probably what you meant.

Nope. I consult for BEP and have done so for 5 years. It's a P-trim in a BW config using the same diameter. Please don't tell me what I meant. I can articulate my argument quite well. Thank you, though..

 

[We're on Boost]

Nope. I consult for BEP and have done so for 5 years. It's a P-trim in a BW config using the same diameter. Please don't tell me what I meant. I can articulate my argument quite well. Thank you, though..

Ok, that's interesting. I guess I believe you because I've seen some posts in other forums by "The Shodan" and it sounded in them like you might be working with Bullseye. What about the bearings, seals, shaft, heck even the bearing housing? Are those items straight BW or are they made by somebody else?
If I were to call David Hall and ask him about the P-trim wheel, would he deny it? Would he say it was a BW wheel? Would he just not want to talk about it?

Thanks,
Gary

You don't, by chance, work for AGP, do you?

No.
It's funny though, because I have thought that when I retire it might be kind of fun to work for one of these places for a while. You know, answer the phone, spend the whole day talking to customers about all this stuff. I don't think it would be AGP though because they already have a really good guy for that, Jon. That's probably one reason why the SRT people like AGP, you can actually talk to the guy that answers the phone there! Now FP on the other hand, last I knew they could use some help in that department. As much as I love FP, it does bug me that they have that problem.

I happen to have my S256 wheel, I could weigh it if you can find out what the HTA76 wheel weighs.

Hmm, that's kind of a cool idea. I could try to find out from FP, if they would tell me. Maybe I'll ask if they have a number for moment of inertia - just for fun. Nah just kidding, I'll see if I can get a weight though.

Also, I'd never waste my money going with a .63 hotside on an HTA35R. It sounds like you're looking to shoot yourself in the foot with power potential over a paranoia of spool times. Whether you end up with a BW or HTA, I'd really consider going twin scroll to get the best of both worlds.

Paranoia no, joy of driving yes.
The .63 a/r would give me much better throttle response from a cruise rpm. Or, coming out of a slow city corner in 2nd gear, 15 mph or so, getting on the gas, I'll get a lot more thrust out of that corner with the .63 a/r. This is the kind of stuff that makes "ordinary" driving on the road a lot more fun. I'm willing to trade away a few top end hp for a lot more low end thrust.
If you were talking the HTA3586 I would say sure, get the .82 a/r. But I'm not talking the 3586 at all. The HTA3582 is what I would go to if I wanted something bigger. The 3582 is wonderful with either the .63 or the .82 and then it just comes down to what kind of use or driving style you like. For me, from the dyno tests I've seen, it would be the .63 a/r.
Two of the first tests in the great series of dyno tests that Dave Buschur did in late 2007, early 2008, when they were introducing the HTA3582, featured the cnoevol car (.63 a/r) and the U2SLO car (.82 a/r). The .82 car only made about 10 hp more on 93 octane, and about 30 hp more on race gas. The 2 power curves cross over each other between 4500 and 5000 rpm. Below that point the .63 was a lot stronger. Here are links to those 2 threads:

New record for pump gas, set with the HTA35r - evolutionm.net

Records are meant to be broken....HTA35r again. - evolutionm.net

The engines in these 2 cars were built almost identical, bolt ons, cams, ems, as I remember were all the same. Both built and tuned by DB, same dyno, same dyno operater - David Buschur.

The other 2 liter .63 a/r 3582HTA car that really impressed me in evom was the Mellon car.

I want to stay tuned to the twin scroll thing for sure. A couple things slowed me down on it. First, when I found out the single wastegate idea doesn't work very well (from Geoff). Second, Geoff again, the shootout results he showed in evom comparing a BW S3XX twin scroll to a similar sized GT twin scroll. Dang can't find the thread. Anyway I didn't see much to get excited about. It sounds like you have something much better going on with yours so I will check that out!

 

[We're on Boost]

Nope. I consult for BEP and have done so for 5 years. It's a P-trim in a BW config using the same diameter.

I started an email exchange with David Hall about this P-trim question a few days ago. He says the turbine wheel in the S256 - S259 is a Borg-Warner wheel, not a P-trim.
I'm going to copy and paste the exact text of the emails in here, you guys can draw your own conclusions:

Me: In DSMtuners forum there was some discussion as to what the turbine wheel is in the Bullseye S256 – S259 turbos. We don’t know if it is a wheel designed and manufactured by Borg Warner, or if it is a “P-trim” wheel which I guess is a Garrett designed wheel that has been used by a lot of people in various turbos. We can see that the diameter dimensions agree with the P-trim, but that is all we know so far. Can you clear it up for us? This is the 74mm / 64mm turbine wheel we are talking about.

David: Yes they are the same size but the BW does not have the same blade shape as the P-Trim nor are they interchangeable to the Garrett exhaust housing.

Me: So what you are saying is that the Bullseye S256 – S259 turbos use a BW turbine wheel. Not a P-trim. Correct?

David: Correct.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

I don't know what this forum has gone to, but someone is standing up for AGP pride of work and EVERYONE negated it.

Don't care, I still won't go for AGP even if they paid me for research and even if people proof it's a stronger and faster spooling turbo I still will never go for it. To everyone that has been is the DSM world, AGP is a lost cause and their turbos are POS.

 

[We're on Boost]

To everyone that has been is the DSM world, AGP is a lost cause

That was then, this is now.
If you want to read about AGP now, read about it in the srt forums.
There are people who will never like Bullseye, ATP, AGP, PTE, PTP - most of the vendors have some nay-sayers. Nothing new.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

That was then, this is now.
If you want to read about AGP now, read about it in the srt forums.
There are people who will never like Bullseye, ATP, AGP, PTE, PTP - most of the vendors have some nay-sayers. Nothing new.

I don't care to read about AGP, this is an example of what it was done it the past for and now they will never regain my respect. With that said, I highly doubt other people with past experience would ever go back to AGP and as far as I could see people who have been through that wouldn't recommend other people to AGP.