Aftermarket ball joints that change the roll center?

[teejayDSM]

I always got a good laugh out of the ball joints that just have a longer body.

How about a setup like this but with a longer stud of course. Then you can mix'n match spacer rings like a bump steer kit and have an adjustable roll center.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

A quick question about this picture. Where is that sway bar attached? it goes up beyond the pic somewhere. On our cars it's attached to the control arm, and it moves with it. I would assume it needs to move with the control arm and attaching it to an aftermarket one seemed to be a problem. Didn't even think about moving it to somewhere else, but where? Would it even work correctly? Might make it easier to make an aftermarket arm.

 

[pneumo]

A quick question about this picture. Where is that sway bar attached? it goes up beyond the pic somewhere. On our cars it's attached to the control arm, and it moves with it. I would assume it needs to move with the control arm and attaching it to an aftermarket one seemed to be a problem. Didn't even think about moving it to somewhere else, but where? Would it even work correctly? Might make it easier to make an aftermarket arm.

The swaybar is attached to the strut. Many BMW's and Porsches do it this way.
The advantage is when you turn the steering, the sway bar is automatically preloaded to keep the car level. It feels great in normal corners and 9/10 ths driving. The disadvantage is that it's inconsistant when the back end kicks out and you need to dial in some opposite lock steering.

 

[donk]

Found these pictures of a wrc seat maybe this would be something to look into ?

http://rejsa.nu/im/user/19611/2012-04-13-10-53-51_img_8359.jpg

http://rejsa.nu/im/user/19611/2012-04-13-10-55-03_img_8364.jpg

http://rejsa.nu/im/user/19611/2012-07-02-00-43-07_seatupright1.jpg

http://rejsa.nu/im/user/19611/2012-07-02-00-43-33_seatupright2.jpg

/A

 

[underradar92]

Very interesting, nice extra support/triangulation for the tie rod arm and a gusset to support the ball joint (lower heim joint?) pedestal. Too bad our knuckles don't have bolt in bearings, that looks like it is very strong.

Might even help some with flex induced brake pad knockback.

Found pics of EVO8/9 knuckles. They have bolt in bearings. Hmmmm...

 

[Ludachris]

We really need to figure out a way to adapt the Evo knuckle to the 1g. It would open the door to a lot of new opportunities for us - better roll center options, bolt-in bearings, big brake options, a lot more coilover options, etc. I need to send some emails...

 

[lowell]

We really need to figure out a way to adapt the Evo knuckle to the 1g. It would open the door to a lot of new opportunities for us - better roll center options, bolt-in bearings, big brake options, a lot more coilover options, etc. I need to send some emails...

Since I have both sitting here, a quick measurement shows the Evo hub carrier has a 5/8" longer steering arm, and it's also positioned about 2" lower than a 1G. Tie rod taper is the same.

Strut mounting. 1G = 22mm, Evo = 26mm. Any good coilover should be swappable to an Evo lower.

Strut mounting bolts to hub face looks very close, but the biggest difference is the lower balljoint. You would need to weld on a machined steel cup to accept the Evo ball joint. Steering arm could be cut and welded. Who wants to try this?

Edit: steering arm was measured from the center of the strut mount. I remeasured from the ball joint centerline and the 1G arm comes out about 3/8" shorter. 5 5/8" vs 6" on the Evo.

 

[Ludachris]

Since I have both sitting here, a quick measurement shows the Evo hub carrier has a 5/8" longer steering arm, and it's also positioned about 2" lower than a 1G. Tie rod taper is the same.

Strut mounting. 1G = 22mm, Evo = 26mm. Any good coilover should be swappable to an Evo lower.

Strut mounting bolts to hub face looks very close, but the biggest difference is the lower balljoint. You would need to weld on a machined steel cup to accept the Evo ball joint. Steering arm could be cut and welded. Who wants to try this?

Edit: steering arm was measured from the center of the strut mount. I remeasured from the ball joint centerline and the 1G arm comes out about 3/8" shorter. 5 5/8" vs 6" on the Evo.

The tie rod length can be addressed fairly easily I'd think, plus we'd start using Evo tie rod ends. The axle ends would be a potentially expensive issue, would need custom axles with Evo outers (unless the splines are the same). The ball joints would be the focal point - are they smaller in diameter, requiring a cup to be welded on to the 1g arm? Wonder if there's a way around that, maybe a sleeve or something.

 

[lowell]

1G axle outer = 25.9mm
Evo outer = 27.8mm

1G axle bar, 25.6mm
Evo bar, 26mm

I don't know if the bar splines are different, but in my opinion the axle issue would be simple to make work.

The Evo ball joint body looks to be a few mm larger than the 1G.

 

[Ludachris]

1G axle outer = 25.9mm
Evo outer = 27.8mm

1G axle bar, 25.6mm
Evo bar, 26mm

I don't know if the bar splines are different, but in my opinion the axle issue would be simple to make work.

The Evo ball joint body looks to be a few mm larger than the 1G.

So reaming out the stock control arm or making the hole larger some other way, the ball joint should fit without welding - that's what I'm really after, not having to weld it.

 

[lowell]

After measuring the ball joints again, they may be very close, and possibly the same diameter, but the only way to find out would be to measure them out of the control arms. Height wise, the Evo looks 9-10mm taller. Easy fix with a spacer ring.

Welding a steel control arm is cake...are you worried about strength?

 

[Ludachris]

After measuring the ball joints again, they may be very close, and possibly the same diameter, but the only way to find out would be to measure them out of the control arms. Height wise, the Evo looks 9-10mm taller. Easy fix with a spacer ring.

Welding a steel control arm is cake...are you worried about strength?

Well, I'm thinking more in terms of creating a solution that most people can do, and it's always easier if you don't have to weld it. I'm also thinking in terms of having to replace a control arm if it's damaged... It just makes it complicated is all.

 

[lowell]

It looks like the Evo hub face is further away from the ball joint, which makes sense as anyone who has put big rotors on a 1G knows how they like to hit the ball joint lip. Just by eye it looks to be ~1/2".

I think the type of guys serious enough to do this mod would be able to fab themselves or know someone who can.

Also need a custom ABS ring. 1G = 47 teeth. Evo = 43t. I would love to put an Evo ABS system on my car though...

 

[Ludachris]

It looks like the Evo hub face is further away from the ball joint, which makes sense as anyone who has put big rotors on a 1G knows how they like to hit the ball joint lip. Just by eye it looks to be ~1/2".

I think the type of guys serious enough to do this mod would be able to fab themselves or know someone who can.

Also need a custom ABS ring. 1G = 47 teeth. Evo = 43t. I would love to put an Evo ABS system on my car though...

Pulled my ABS long ago, no worries about the ring.

 

[underradar92]

One would want a custom ABS ring for the rear so it'd be compatible with the EVO front ring and the other EVO ABS hardware, since the point would be to use the superior later model unit, correct? Do the sensors send a similar or compatible signal, outside of the tooth count?

Installing different balljoints in our control arms is not unheard of, since the EVO balljoint attaches to the upright differently this would be a must-do mod anyhoo.

The fact that the hub face seems to be out a bit further may create clearance/front track width issues also.

A bit longer steering arm would slow steering a smidge, but it locating a little higher may help with bump-steer on severely lowered cars. (mine)

 

[lowell]

One would want a custom ABS ring for the rear so it'd be compatible with the EVO front ring and the other EVO ABS hardware, since the point would be to use the superior later model unit, correct? Do the sensors send a similar or compatible signal, outside of the tooth count?

Installing different balljoints in our control arms is not unheard of, since the EVO balljoint attaches to the upright differently this would be a must-do mod anyhoo.

The fact that the hub face seems to be out a bit further may create clearance/front track width issues also.

A bit longer steering arm would slow steering a smidge, but it locating a little higher may help with bump-steer on severely lowered cars. (mine)

Agreed on the ABS rings.

Front track width could be adjusted by position of the ball joint sleeve. I would probably also move the ball joint forward a little bit. More caster, longer wheelbase. On Evos this really helps tire clearance issues at the rear of the fender opening.

 

[underradar92]

Front track width could be adjusted by position of the ball joint sleeve. I would probably also move the ball joint forward a little bit. More caster, longer wheelbase.

I am thinking along the same lines, the forward-er ( is that a word?) placement of the balljoint will also increase caster and kingpin incline angle, both are helpful. My control arms are actually moved forward a bit for these very same reasons.

My concern with moving the balljoint inward is that the strut may have to be slotted in order to re-correct any camber losses. Easy fix to be sure, just wanted to mention it.

 

[lowell]

Just wondering how everyone's various front roll center fixes are working out long term. I need to do something on the front end of my car, plus it has to be big rotor friendly.

 

[Ludachris]

Just got off the phone with Moog - the diameter of our ball joints where it presses in is 1.571". Which is 39.9034mm.

This means that the S13 ball joint is going to be wider, which is better than it being smaller. So we'd have to enlarge the hole in our control arms slightly to make it work. This should be pretty simple. The trick is finding the right aftermarket ball joint for the S13, one that actually has a longer stem and not just a longer body. I've found that there aren't many of them out there that do it right, and the ones that do are expensive.

On a side note, I'm checking with Howe to see if they have anything close to that as well, since we know they have a longer stud that works. If they have a housing that is similar size to the S13 that accepts their longer stud that would be the best and cheapest solution.

 

[lowell]

I put an S13 and 1G ball joint side by side, and they're both the same diameter, and have the same 10mm press in height to the snap ring. Now the bad part is the S13 uses a 14mm nut and a larger diameter taper which means it will sit about 3/8" lower in the upright. Good for roll center height, possibly bad for stiffness. A wide flanged nut could help out up top though.

I would be inclined to try it out, but I already have fully adjustable roll center and bump steer on my car so I can't use stock balljoints anymore. Even without the roll center kit and with a hammered down control arm I was having clearance issues with the 328x28 Stoptech rotors.

 

[Ludachris]

I put an S13 and 1G ball joint side by side, and they're both the same diameter, and have the same 10mm press in height to the snap ring. Now the bad part is the S13 uses a 14mm nut and a larger diameter taper which means it will sit about 3/8" lower in the upright. Good for roll center height, possibly bad for stiffness. A wide flanged nut could help out up top though.

I would be inclined to try it out, but I already have fully adjustable roll center and bump steer on my car so I can't use stock balljoints anymore. Even without the roll center kit and with a hammered down control arm I was having clearance issues with the 328x28 Stoptech rotors.

Are you saying the taper of the ball joint body is larger on the S13 ball joint? Meaning, the hole in the DSM control arm is slightly too small? That would be consistent with the info I've found. Wonder if the S14 is any different than the S13 ball joint.

 

[lowell]

Are you saying the taper of the ball joint body is larger on the S13 ball joint? Meaning, the hole in the DSM control arm is slightly too small? That would be consistent with the info I've found. Wonder if the S14 is any different than the S13 ball joint.

Taper is larger on the S13 but angle seems the same at 7 degrees.

After considering all the options, this is what I came up with. Fully adjustable via spacers, 3/4" crmo rod end w/ liner, extended wheelbase + caster increase, and wider track.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[underradar92]

Taper is larger on the S13 but angle seems the same at 7 degrees.

After considering all the options, this is what I came up with. Fully adjustable via spacers, 3/4" crmo rod end w/ liner, extended wheelbase + caster increase, and wider track.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

And more anti-sway bars...

Lowel, would you mind terribly if I sort-of copy the wing design on your avatar pic?

 

[lowell]

Don't mind at all.

The double bars are gone now in favor of an RM Racing bar courtesy of Ziggy @ RTM.

 

[iwantawd]

I am waiting for my first prototypes to arrive for my S60R.

I will be jumping on this for the GSX once I buy one. I'm shocked no one makes these already.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[pagosa dsm]

iwantawd
what are these?
Rick