Aftermarket ball joints that change the roll center?

[92EagleAWD]

There has to be a cheaper way to make those. A friend of mine is getting his hands on a CNC machine shortly, I'm going to find out if we could make something like that for less money.

If that actually works out i will indeed be interested. The market for these cars is suck crap when it comes to suspension components. Has your friend tried this yet?

 

[pneumo]

How's this? Adjustable Tie-Rod Adapter Stud to Heim
I'm not 100% sure, but as far as I can tell the 'Pinto' taper should fit our cars? Can anyone confirm? This would be an easy way to adjust bump steer.

 

[pagosa dsm]

How's this? Adjustable Tie-Rod Adapter Stud to Heim
I'm not 100% sure, but as far as I can tell the 'Pinto' taper should fit our cars? Can anyone confirm? This would be an easy way to adjust bump steer.

I made my own,heim joint tie rod end. I used a grade 8 bolt to attach the heim joint to the spindle.You can see a photo in my gallery of it. I have had it on for a few years.
Rick

 

[drivemusicnow]

I need to replace the ball joints on my car, I was hoping someone had potentially created a better solution recently? Has anyone tried the "pinto" tie rod adjuster?

Thanks!

 

[xloki77x]

I have tried to run the pinto style 7*/ft taper tie rod to heim adapter but the adapter taper is too large. The mitsu taper is very very close to 7*/ft (closer to 6*) but the heim adapter small end is barely smaller than the mitsu knuckle's large end. I am having a few heim adapters machined down to fit the mitsu knuckles if you are interested. I have already done the balljoint with the .5" extended stud and the lower control arm angle is boner inducing. With this heim adapter to adjust bump steer coupled with the extended ball joint to fix the lca angle, the front suspension geometry of the early evo/1g can be optimized to its absolute fullest abilities. You'll also notice that I put together a custom tie rod setup with 5/8" left hand thread rod ends and shorter inner tie rods replace the factory style tie ro/tie rod end.

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And this is the stock heim adapter without being machined.

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I am putting in an order to get 10 sets of the heim adapter next week and will have my machine shop turn them down to the correct mitsu knuckle size (same on the evo and 1g). When things are finalized and I have some in hand and test fitted I will post back.

 

[greengoblin]

You could have purchased a tapered reamer and enlarged the hole. I had to do this on my 2g when I built my toe arms. .Or was there just not enough meat on the knuckle? I though about machining them but did want to remove the cad plating and I was also unsure if they where just case hardened.

Welds look great.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/152122187-post45.html

Keep up the good work.

Kevin

 

[xloki77x]

Thanks for the compliments!

I actually bought the reamer but decided it was a smarter choice to simply turn the $10 heim adapter than to ream the nearly impossible to come by early evo knuckles. This also meant I could sell the tie rods/adapters as a kit and not require the buyer to also purchase the $80 reamer and ream their knuckles. Also, once you ream the knuckle there's no going back to the Mitsu taper/tie rods. I even thought about sending a reamer with the kit and having the buyer send it back when done. But that meant trusting random people, having them modify something themselves in order for your part to work, and simply more overall cost.

The proper thing to do would be to design a mitsu taper'd heim adapter/roll center adjuster. Stay tuned on that one

-Pete

 

[greengoblin]

Thanks for the compliments!

I actually bought the reamer but decided it was a smarter choice to simply turn the $10 heim adapter than to ream the nearly impossible to come by early evo knuckles. This also meant I could sell the tie rods/adapters as a kit and not require the buyer to also purchase the $80 reamer and ream their knuckles. Also, once you ream the knuckle there's no going back to the Mitsu taper/tie rods. I even thought about sending a reamer with the kit and having the buyer send it back when done. But that meant trusting random people, having them modify something themselves in order for your part to work, and simply more overall cost.

The proper thing to do would be to design a mitsu taper'd heim adapter/roll center adjuster. Stay tuned on that one

-Pete

You have it locked down Pete! Keep it up sir!

 

[Sirnixalot]

To reiterate my earlier concern. I REALLY want to do this to my Evo 3 lower control arms but they are not stamped steel. I have access to an excellent welder but i want to make sure that i don't end up ruining the only set of control arms i have.

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They are not stamped steel but cast into shape. I could easily get a hole saw with the same OD as the weld in adapter and cut the required C shape at the end of the arm. Will it be enough to weld it to the arm in the same fashion that Pete has done to the stamped steel arm? I could make the side gussets longer that uses say 2 inches along each side of the control arm?

As far as the gussets go what thickness material would be ideal 3/16"?

Shit needs to be bomb proof here in the caribbean

 

[xloki77x]

It is possible to weld to a steel casting, but it requires pre-heating and proper filler rod. If not properly prepped and welded you are guranteed to have weld failure, and possible your casting will crack. Also, you need to know the specific makeup of the cast steel in question (i.e. amount carbon and other material content). I believe its common practice to use a nickle based filler rod on cast steel, but I think it would be imperitive to find out the exact composition of the material being welded especially if its a load bearing structure being subjected to race use.

Perhaps you could have the hole machined out and get a press fit ball joint sleeve so you could replace the studs easier and also vary the sizes. You may be able to find mono ball ball joints with the correct taper that press in and are replaceable.

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[Sirnixalot]

Do you have a part number for that joint? I am trying to find it on colemans site but haven't been able to find it

I am confident in his ability to weld the 2 together and i can get the right rod on island (he welded a T25 flange to a cast exhaust manifold for my previous vehicle). I would prefer a press in bearing and that looks quite feasible actually.

A friend replaced his ball joints earlier on so he will measure the OD of the stock ball joint so i can see if i can located a spherical bearing that will fit in the stock arm. If i can do that i am a circlip and a lathe away from having an adjustable roll center!

I will let you know what i find

 

[drivemusicnow]

Question for you guys... I found these Integral Ball Joint Assembly, Upper Control Arm, 772/6024 - Racing Parts and Products

Which offer up to +.750 and what looks like a smaller OD on the sleeve (Beneficial as my willwood brakes seem even tighter to the control arm than stock) I was curious if anyone knew of a reason why I shouldn't have these welded in place instead of the other howe 772s we've been discussing.

Also, Does anyone weld in additional support in the middle of the stamped arm?

Oh, and for all of you, you can buy brand new OEM arms for 150$ (75$ per arm) at RockAuto Auto Parts

Sooo, sirnixalot, I'd just pick up a set of these and modify them... leave your arms intact.

 

[Sirnixalot]

^ a bit late

I forgot to update this thread. I got some weld cups, 5/8 spherical bearings, studs and some special tig rods and got everything assembled and welded up. I had to grind down the outer curve of the arm to clear the brake rotor when using a 1/2" spacer with the extended stud (dropped the arm about an inch)

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I got the tie rods from xloki77x (awesome pieces of work btw!) , they are going to be installed this weekend so i can get the car aligned.

 

[Ludachris]

This thread has turned out to be a great place to share ideas on the subject. I really wish we could find some easier solutions that didn't require much modification of the lower control arm. I'm still considering picking up a 240sx ball joint to do some measurements next time I'm at Pick N Pull. The stem taper looked to be the same when I checked a while back, but I couldn't measure the press fit side to see if they could simply be press fitted in place of our OEM units. I know that might not be as good as the options solutions some are coming up with here, but the simplicity of buying a set of good aftermarket ball joints for an S14 240sx would be killer.

 

[Ludachris]

And just to clear up something here - I've been finding roll center adjusters for other cars. It seems some of them simply extend the body of the ball joint where others have longer stems that move the pivot point lower. Have we determined whether or not we need the longer shanks or can we get away with the longer bodies? Does the pivot point NEED to be lower or are we just worried about the angle of the control arm?

 

[Sirnixalot]

I am no suspension guru but from what I have seen with my "kit" is the ones that just move the body up may run into issues with the travel of the joint at ride height or full droop depending on its angle of operation.

That is why most of the after market arms I see for the S series chassis have an angled mount for the ball joint

 

[Ludachris]

I am no suspension guru but from what I have seen with my "kit" is the ones that just move the body up may run into issues with the travel of the joint at ride height or full droop depending on its angle of operation.

That is why most of the after market arms I see for the S series chassis have an angled mount for the ball joint

Meaning when the shock is fully extended, the angle of the ball joint stem would be too severe? I could see that being the case.

 

[99gst_racer]

And just to clear up something here - I've been finding roll center adjusters for other cars. It seems some of them simply extend the body of the ball joint where others have longer stems that move the pivot point lower. Have we determined whether or not we need the longer shanks or can we get away with the longer bodies? Does the pivot point NEED to be lower or are we just worried about the angle of the control arm?

As I understand it, the pivot point needs to be moved to get the desired result. When calculating arm angle, it's more appropriate to "scribe your line" from pivot point to pivot point, because those will affect the dynamics of instant center and roll center, rather than the arms shape or the space it takes up. Unless the pivot point is moved, the arm will swing the same and from the same points.

 

[Sirnixalot]

Meaning when the shock is fully extended, the angle of the ball joint stem would be too severe? I could see that being the case.

Correct. As it is the stud in my "kit" contacts the bearing race/surround at full droop so it wouldn't make much sense for me to drop the arms any lower (not that I think I need to since they are now pointing in the right direction)

Also any ball joint type kits can have a "reverse" taper on the stud where its closest to the ball/cup for a little extra range of motion where as a spherical bearing and stud type kit cannot have this since the studs lip is what stops it from sliding through the bearing.

 

[Ludachris]

So the goal is to move the pivot point down on the lowered cars - which moves the control arm angle down at the same time, not just push the control arms back to the correct angle. The longer body ball joints wouldn't achieve this.

 

[jtmcinder]

Yes. And to be 100% clear: the angle of the lower arm, itself, is not the issue. What matters is the virtual line that goes from the inboard to the outboard articulation points. I have seen cases where people have tried to mount the outer ball-joint higher in the lower arm, thinking that a downward angle to the arm is all that matters, but that doesn't change the roll center. The center of the outer ball-joint, itself, must move down (and, therefore, must move relative to the knuckle). Thus, if you have a few threads sticking up through the nut on the outer ball-joint, you can just add a washer underneath the knuckle's ear and gain a little bit very easily.

 

[lowell]

I always got a good laugh out of the ball joints that just have a longer body.

How about a setup like this but with a longer stud of course. Then you can mix'n match spacer rings like a bump steer kit and have an adjustable roll center.

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[coop795]

ok, that is cool. What the hell is that on?

 

[lowell]

Looks like an older BMW

 

[coop795]

what about doing them like this? I can build these, then we can choose the ball joints and set the height of things.


So who can do the CAD work?