1G About to do complete timing belt replacement, replace front seals as well?

[XC92]

Self-explanatory. I'm about to replace the TB, BB & 3 accessory belts along with all the pulleys, tensioners and water pump. All OEM except the BB, which is Gates Racing, and WP, which is Aisin. OEM is pretty expensive and Aisin is not, but highly rated.

I'm using the upgraded OEM kevlar belt instead of the stock one. Probably unnecessary but it's just $20 more and you don't do this every day, and in case I ever try to boost the HP.

What I'm wondering is whether I should also replace all 5 main front engine seals, i.e. 2x cam & 1x crank, oil pump & BB, at least if they're not leaking or look bad, as relatively cheap insurance. I just replaced the rear seal when I took the trans out, although the stock one looked fine. I used Fel-Pro, not OEM.

If I do replace them, is it ok to go with National & Timken, or even Fel-Pro, since OEM is kind of pricey? Or is it OEM all the way? My car is stock, no mods, none foreseen any time soon (but as I said you never know).

And, anything else to replace while I'm at it? E.g. bearings, sprockets, spacers, harmonic balancer, bolts, etc.

Sorry if I've asked and been answered this before. I've done so much work on my Talon and asked so many questions, I've lost track.

 

[AWD-Tony]

The seals are 30 years old. OEM seals last the longest. Cheap out and you’ll be back in there sooner than later. Ask me how I know.

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/timing-belt-job-parts-questions.534939/

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/way-overdue-for-timing-belt-replacement.534063/

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/mitsubishi-timing-belt.533676/

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/ordering-maintenance-repair-parts-advice-needed.531282/

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/advice-needed-on-timing-belt-clutch-replacement-kits.531239/

 

[XC92]

Well thanks for linking to my TB-related threads but they barely touched on seals and related tasks and parts, and I don't believe this question was ever answered. I asked about seals, not belts, pulleys, tensioners or water pumps.

So really, what's the deal, replace or not, and what else to consider doing while I'm in there? It's not that complicated.

 

[AWD-Tony]

Replace them all with oem seals while you're in there. Use the smallest drill bit you have and drill a hole in the seal (don't push too hard). Use a wood screw and screw it into the hole and it will lift off. That's only for seals on the front cover. Cam seals just slide out.

 

[XC92]

Not aftermarket, even good ones? We're talking well over $100 difference.

 

[pauleyman]

Yes. Makes no sense considering the age and especially yours as you know they are original.
Personally, I am comfortable with major brands and have had no problems. Your results may vary. The oem seals are not "expensive". Maybe compared to a non oem seal but guessing all 5 of them are under 100$. Even if it's 150 expensive relative to what???

 

[AWD-Tony]

Ok save $100 put in the cheaper ones then.

 

[XC92]

I'm just asking if there's a known advantage to OEM or if it's all just anecdotal and gut feeling without any basis in empirical data.

It actually turns out that they're not as expensive as I thought, around $75 vs. $30 for aftermarket, so I'll get the OEM ones. But $50 here, $100 there, on part after part, and it adds up, and not everyone can afford to spend $500-$1000 more "just in case". On crucial parts like TBs, tensioners, gear, etc., sure, but I'm not convinced it's necessary on other parts, especially on stock cars.

Anyway, I'll get the OEMs.

 

[Mech Addict]

It will make you feel better if you try to price out any one OEM engine seal for a Porsche, say a 944. Once you get back up off the floor, you will look for more ways to spend the money you've saved by owning a Japanese sports car (with better performance).

 

[XC92]

It's just that everyone seems to push OEM for everything, when it's only really necessary for certain parts and applications. Sure, it's usually the safe choice, but often by default, not necessarily backed up by data or even experience. I mean is there really much difference in gaskets for stock setups, between reputable brands and OEM? And in many cases aftermarket is actually better. But, anyway, the price difference turned out to be a lot less than I thought, so I'll get OEM.

 

[AWD-Tony]

From my EXPERIENCE, topline crank seal leaked after 2 years maybe 2k miles. Is an oem seal necessary, no. You want to save $10 on a seal that takes you 2 hours to get to, sure go ahead. You spent $20 more for a Kevlar belt for no reason so I don’t get why you’re so upset about a few more dollars for an oem seals.

 

[XC92]

Look, no need to get defensive as this thread went sideways almost from the start, because you assumed that I was asking the same question for the 5th time. In fact I did ask this before, but never got an answer, and googling it didn't really help. So I asked again, this time specifically instead of as one of several TB-related questions.

And I got the kevlar belt because I was advised to do so by folks here, perhaps even you, and because if a belt goes bad the engine's trashed but if a seal goes bad we're talking half a day or so to replace it and likely no serious damage to anything else from what I understand. Maybe I'm wrong and a bad seal can cause the TB or BB to slip or skip and the engine goes with it.

And for whatever reason I thought OEM seals were a lot more expensive than they actually are. Maybe I was thinking bearings, which I also recently replaced and where OEM is quite a bit more expensive. Unlike most here I don't have decades of car maintenance experience and have to ask lots of questions. If they become excessive or tiresome, just say so and I'll back off.

 

[AWD-Tony]

Post #4 I recommended oem from my experience. I’m not pushing oem for no reason here. Sure they won’t harm anything if they leak but you’ll understand why it’s a pain to remove these seals when you get to them. It’s not a simple seal to replace because you’ll be on your side trying to drill into the hard seals slipping off from time to time. Forgot to mention a sprung center punch helps before you start drilling the seal.

 

[XC92]

Thanks, all I needed to know.

 

[AWD-Tony]

The only reason I knew the old crank seal was leaking was on disassembly after my hg blew. It wasn’t much so I would have never known for quite some time.

 

[XC92]

Cheap insurance, I get it.

Speaking of leaks, I just noticed a small oil leak on the bottom of the trans that I just rebuilt. I'll raise the front when I have the chance and see what's up. I hope I don't have to take everything off again. That would be way harder than getting to an engine front seal that's leaking. Unfortunately, neither the fill nor drain plugs are leaking, so it's probably either a crack in the case, a bad RTV seal between the case sections, or one of the axle seals (both of which I replaced with OEM). I won't know till I get the car up. OT to this thread, but a leak's a leak.

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

I’m in the process of doing this exact same thing. ARP head stud replacement turned into a full blown maintenance job (all timing components/water pump). I then discovered the car still had balance shafts. I deleted the rear shaft but left the front one in cuz I didn’t want to hack it in half to pull it out. This way I don’t have to worry about that balance shaft breaking and wiping everything else out.

I also replaced all the seals on the front case simply because I already had the front case off.

I see no reason to keep the balance shaft/belt, unless it’s from a pure comfort standpoint

 

[XC92]

I'm keeping the BS/BB, as my car is stock, no mods or tuning, and everything I've read about them says to keep them in for such a situation. But, yeah, with old cars there's no such thing as a simple job. It always ends up requiring other things to be done, or at least it's very strongly advised. No point in owning and driving a DSM if it's just creaking along. That's what family sedans are for.

 

[dwb]

I also run a relatively stock DSM and I've been through exactly the same stuff. I removed the BS/BB and kind of regret doing so. It's no where near as comfortable as it used to be.

Personally I will only buy OEM seals, even when I had no money. It's just not worth it to cheap out on a seal and having to do it again. I also use the drill bit/wood screw technique (I thought I invented that ) and it's been a life saver for many years.

As far as parts to replace when doing timing belt, I'd recommend a new tensioner and all the pulleys too. Make sure you also get a new water pump, gasket and hard pipe o-ring.

Just FYI, here's the list of seals I replaced on my 91 turbo (might be missing some so do your homework):
No / PNC / Qty / PN / Name
Front Case & oil cooler
001 04379 1 MD620908 O-RING,ENG OIL COOLER INR
002 02017 1 MD149393 GASKET,ENG FR CASE
003 03070 1 MD069949 OIL SEAL,CRANKSHAFT,FR
004 04114 1 MD149370 GASKET,OIL FILTER BRACKET
005 02099 1 MD041021 O-RING,ENG FR CASE 26.2
006 04028 1 MD095355 OIL SEAL,ENG OIL PUMP DRIVE GEAR SHAFT
007 04184 1 MD000312 GASKET,OIL FILTER INR
008 03623R 1 MD069950 OIL SEAL,BALANCER SHAFT,FR RH
Valve Cover
001 01111 4 MD125940 GASKET,ROCKER COVER SPARK PLUG HOLE
002 01110 1 MD125939 GASKET,ROCKER COVER
003 01221 1 MD050536 SEAL,CYLINDER HEAD CAMSHAFT END RUBBER
Camshaft
001 03130 2 MD133317 OIL SEAL,CAMSHAFT

 

[XC92]

Thanks. Wow, that's a lot of seals! And, as far as removing the old seals, things are too tight in there I assume to use a seal puller tool?

 

[AWD-Tony]

Thanks. Wow, that's a lot of seals! And, as far as removing the old seals, things are too tight in there I assume to use a seal puller tool?

Nope. I can’t think of any other way to pull those. Also, when you have the cover off, break the bolts loose for front balance shaft sprocket and oil pump sprocket while the tbelt is still on. An impact here is super helpful.

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

If you are replacing all the seals, I would pull the front case and inspect the oil pump while ur at it. Makes getting those seals off so much easier

 

[XC92]

There was actually a nasty leak in that approximate area that I couldn't track down. It hasn't reappeared since I dropped, cleaned and reinstalled the oil pan, so maybe that was it, or maybe it was the pump or a nearby part. Or a seal.

I appreciate all the advice everyone's giving. It's just that after more than a year of seemingly endless restoration work, it never seems to end. Nothing too horrible by itself but it's the aggregate of everything that's needed to be addressed and still needs to be. It gets overwhelming and I have to take a step back and relax. And compared to some other builds and restorations I've come across here, mine was relatively not bad.

 

[DSSA]

I'm keeping the BS/BB, as my car is stock, no mods or tuning, and everything I've read about them says to keep them in for such a situation.

I'd be interested in hearing how you found "everything" saying this.

This has been hashed out probably 50+ times on here and Facebook combined in the last year. That said, up until some "recent" (last 6-7 years) diatribe from someone who claims they've reinvented the wheel and output a bogus "paper" on it, next to no one I can think of who has dealt with these cars for for a long period of time has that same opinion.

Stock or not, the bearings are known to fail, often times causing catastrophic damage to the pistons and valve train. Just in my experience, I can't recall how many "stock" cars came in from seized balance shafts.

I've actually owned several that upon teardown after purchasing have had the balance shaft bunched up in the bottom-front of the front case.

This is data from owning probably 50-ish of these cars over the last 25 years, and working on hundreds of others, and I know many guys who have near my experience or more (in some cases, quite a bit more) who echo the above.

You're working on a car that has been worked through in stock form for over 31 years, yet I continually see you spend time hashing out minute details every step of the way. I implore people to get information ask questions, and then research to confirm said information. At the same time, I also see you continually get your back up when someone gives you an answer that is simplistic and has been gone over time and time again over the years. No offense, but neither you, nor I for that matter are going to come up with something on maintaining these cars that will be of note at this point.

Ask your questions--share your experiences. It adds to the data. At the same time, you need to realize that hundreds if not thousands of people have already been there/done that---*use* that advantage.

 

[XC92]

I'd be interested in hearing how you found "everything" saying this.

This has been hashed out probably 50+ times on here and Facebook combined in the last year. That said, up until some "recent" (last 6-7 years) diatribe from someone who claims they've reinvented the wheel and output a bogus "paper" on it, next to no one I can think of who has dealt with these cars for for a long period of time has that same opinion.

Stock or not, the bearings are known to fail, often times causing catastrophic damage to the pistons and valve train. Just in my experience, I can't recall how many "stock" cars came in from seized balance shafts.

I've actually owned several that upon teardown after purchasing have had the balance shaft bunched up in the bottom-front of the front case.

This is data from owning probably 50-ish of these cars over the last 25 years, and working on hundreds of others, and I know many guys who have near my experience or more (in some cases, quite a bit more) who echo the above.

You're working on a car that has been worked through in stock form for over 31 years, yet I continually see you spend time hashing out minute details every step of the way. I implore people to get information ask questions, and then research to confirm said information. At the same time, I also see you continually get your back up when someone gives you an answer that is simplistic and has been gone over time and time again over the years. No offense, but neither you, nor I for that matter are going to come up with something on maintaining these cars that will be of note at this point.

Ask your questions--share your experiences. It adds to the data. At the same time, you need to realize that hundreds if not thousands of people have already been there/done that---*use* that advantage.

Well, first, my car's 29 years old, not 31, and the trans is 27 years old.

Second, that's what I do, hash out minute details. I'm a details person, always have been, always will be. Annoys the hell out of some, I realize. That's their problem, not mine. It's how I do things and in my view why I tend to succeed at things I set out to succeed at. Not bragging, just stating fact.

If what you're really saying is don't do it here, that's not what this site is about, it's about getting max performance out of the platform and not is X name brand whatever better than Y name brand whatever, that's what that other, no longer very frequented DSM site is about, then I can respect that, if that's really the case, and I'll try to stop doing. But it goes against my nature.

But when someone says "Do this", I want to know why. I'm not questioning their wisdom and expertise. I just literally want to know why. Again, that's how I am. I don't deal well with "Just do this, don't ask me why, I know what I'm doing". I need to know why, or else I'm just following a recipe without knowing what makes it work. I need to know what makes it work. No one's obliged to tell me why, of course, but if you don't even try, then I'm going to remain skeptical.

Also, as I've stated many times before, I'm not looking to mod my car in any significant way. Yes, I've "upgraded" it, SS hoses to replace stock rubber ones, SBC S2 clutch to replace the stock one, K&N filter, CC clutch fork, etc. But I haven't really modded it in the sense of modifying a stock part, which deleting the balance shaft would be. Perhaps it really would be the smart thing to do.

But I'm not about to do it without first knowing why. I literally haven't even thought about it. Yes, of course, I've heard about it, many times, but I always thought it was something that tuners did to improve performance, and I'm no tuner and likely never will be. I'm a regular driver who likes driving a stock performance car. If it's something you do to make the engine more reliable, I wasn't aware of that. So I've got some research to do.

As for my statement about "everyone", well, perhaps that was hyperbolic, but your saying that pretty much next to no one you know says that keeping the balance shaft is a good idea, well then please explain this:

DSM / EVO - KEEP YOUR BALANCE SHAFTS - Jacks Transmissions

If you are considering an engine or 60k service from us please also consider leaving the balance shafts in your engine. We have created this page to allow YOU to make an educated decision involving your balance shafts. We are not a company which caters to the 1% which want a car built to run in...

www.jackstransmissions.com

He's one of the more respected trans rebuilders and overall DSM, EVO and performance car experts here, as I understand it. Yet he states that he no longer believes that it's a good idea to delete the balance shaft. He's one of the sources I was referring to in my statements above.

I don't make stuff up out of thin air, especially on matters in which I have no special expertise. I refer to actual experts, especially when they explain things in some details. Plus, I took enough advanced math and physics and engineering courses way back when to know that Nth order harmonics can be bad if not countered, so his argument sounds plausible to me. Isn't that why DSMs have harmonic balancers?

Isn't the 4G63 considered to be one of the best inline 4's ever made? If so, then why would its designers mess up this aspect of it so badly? Didn't they do massive QA before putting it in production cars, and test for such failures? Or do these failures take years to develop in ways that QA tests can't detect, or perhaps mostly on cars that have been modded or driven in ways mine that hasn't and likely never will be? I don't race, track, launch, mod or do any of that stuff, nor am I likely to ever do so. So perhaps the delete doesn't apply to me?