93 Laser

[delta448]

Well that proves the way you had it was doing better at supplying full power.

I can't help but wonder just how much current those 2 450lph pumps are drawing. I've seen others say that they had to run 50A relays to them because they melted 40A relays. I can't think of anything else you're using that would be to blame, I think the 96A alternator just might not be able to keep up with the car's needs.

 

[Stapl3]

When the voltage falls off the table in higher RPMs like I've seen on this car - and others, that is a pulley size issue. Snag here is, the car already needs to be at like 1500rpm to get 13.0v. So the window of output with this alternator is 1500-5500 which is bad and leaves me with nothing to mess with, and 13.0v sucks anyways. I juggled alternator pulley sizes on my other car and it was eye opening to see how much of a give and take there is of achieving voltage at idle AND and rev limit. It made me want a mill or lathe to make my own pulleys down to the hair to really dial in.

The two pumps, coil packs, cluster lights, that's about all that's happening. I don't even have the radio on. I'd think 96A is enough. I do have a motorcity reman 160A unit off my old car that was giving me mid 13s across the board. I'm just not the kind of person to wave the white flag like that, I now have to make this Saturn alt thing work if it takes me infinite alternators.

I will say though, today I took the car out and drove around a bit and became comfortable with it. I am becoming quite familiar with the clutch which is a relief because I despise it. I think having the fuel calibrated perfect, having the deadtime adjusted in DA perfect with tom and dave's settings (accuracy at 11v was helpful), and that big ass battery picking up slack at idle has made it all work out. It's very reassuring to see things still line up perfect with battery-only volts. If someone was completely naive to the situation they'd think the car was fine. Idles great, cruises great, pulls hard, the whole deal. So I'm not exactly dead in the water, just pulling my hair out over something so very very stupid. I have SO MUCH i want to do and experiment with but can't see myself doing any of it because I'm permanently stuck at 12v idle and 11v WOT. It's a distraction and anchor of progress.

 

[Spleen8urLSX]

Sorry I haven’t read the whole thread, but what gauge wire are you running to the power “B” terminal? I’m about to upgrade my 90 amp with some 2 awg wire to hopefully see less voltage drop at wot

With this current heat wave my voltage at wot is 13, in the 60’s and 70’s it’s 13.3-13.4, even at 13.0 my AFR’s are good and the car still hits light speed, just looking to improve it is all

Again, I’m running a 90amp from AdvanceAuto with the stock harness..

Not trying to jack Staple’s thread and it sucks seeing all the alternator issues, but which one from advanced are you using their remanufactured in Mexico job or the brand new from China unit? With the AutoZone “Duralast” alternators on my dsm I’d have the voltage regulators constantly fail so I was considering trying the brand new made in China one they offer as “Duralast gold”, as I bought the cheapest Chinese alternator from rockauto labeled as “Wai global” for my 94’ Ranger and I’ve had no issue yet pretty much dailying it in the summer months so I figured what do I have to lose.

 

[1cleangsx]

Sorry I don’t remember specifically, I just went there and said I needed an alternator for a 91 galant vr4, knowing it’d be a 90amp that would bolt right in, it was probably just whatever brand Advance carries, had it on the car for a couple years now with no issues, other than voltage lower than I’d like to see at wot, 13:3-13:4 which isn’t bad but in this mid to high 80 degree heat it went 13:0 at wot, I’m in the process of running some 2 awg wire to hopefully remedy that tho

 

[Stapl3]

I have determined the alternator currently in the car only gives output from 1500rpm to 5500rpm. A new ACDelco unit has arrived and I'll be swapping that in.

I've had these 2gb Talon wheels for 15 years, last year I put new tires on them but never put a mile on them. I figured I would bolt them on to see how they looked and, well, use the tires I paid for. These are 235/50/17. The idea was to get as much rubber as I could fit there while looking stock. I'm done with the thin sidewall and lowered stance. Maybe I'm getting old. These fit nice on this car at this height and clearance with the coilovers. These do not fit my 2g and the fitment on my other 1g with stock shocks and "coil overs" had about 1/4" clearance between the shock perch and about 1/4" on the other side the fender.

The throttle body was still bothering me, so I did something I vowed to never do and raided one of my other cars. This TB is a turbo unit that I rebuilt and worked perfectly. Installing that will be todays task. Last night I cut gaskets for it. Some things never change as I went back to my roots with Home Depot Racing. If you go to the plumbing section, there are 6"x6" squares of this rubber that I have been using for various gaskets for many years. This makes OEM gaskets look like a sheet of paper.

 

[Stapl3]

Today I put in a ACDelco alternator. This is alternator #5 for me. That's the original it came with, 3x Bosch units, now this one. I am so sick of the process. The ACDelco unit went in pretty quickly - maybe it's all become second nature to me. The big snag was tightening the + wires to the unit. As I tightened the nut and it started to snug down, the stud would spin with the nut and the wires would clock with it. Top notch frustration. I raided an old alternator for a nut, tightened that down first which did bottom out, and my + wires are now attached to the alternator between two nuts. There was no way to get a wrench on the first nut, so I lucked out by having one of those garbage tools you get with 'assembly required' furniture and here's your 10mm wrench the thickness of a nickel. Deciding to keep that crummy tool paid off and the wires are firmly attached.

I started the car and it all felt different. It fired right up like a stock car, idled strong. Logged voltage was between 14.1-14.4v. NICE. I cannot describe how different the car behaves at 14v+, it's incredible. I drove it for 4 miles and was so relieved. Everything was excellent and the determination paid off. I pulled into my driveway, let it idle, then looked at the laptop after a few minutes of idling and voltage is in the mid 12s. W.T.F.

I have noticed a common theme with the past few alternators. Everything is fantastic until it's not. This car is like an alternator killer. For those 5 minutes after installing a new unit everything is amazing, then it falls off the table never to be realized again. Time and time again.

I also saw on the previous alternator I'd go mad lean at 6krpm. Like 14:1 and I attributed it to the alternator not doing anything at that exact moment, which it didn't. But today, at 6k RPM, it went lean to 18:1 and voltage is at 13.0, so lack of voltage to the pumps is ruled out. I remember doing the WOT pull today and thinking man it feels like I hit a wall at full boost.

I have a thought that the AFPR is bad. I will test it by toggling the pumps on to get base fuel pressure, then look at the gauge as it sees 40psi to the nipple on the AFPR with an air compressor and see if the gauge raises accordingly.

I also have a thought that one of the fuel pumps is bad, and fuel is being pumped by one pump to the rail AND bleeding badly going reverse through the other pump.

In my 20+ years DSMing I have never been so defeated. It shouldn't be like this and I don't know where I'm messing up. This makes me want to go mechanical fuel pump, put a BAP to the coil packs, and just say whatever.

 

[1cleangsx]

Man I hope you get her figured out, I recently finished upgrading my power feed on my 90amp to a 2awg and it made zero difference at wot , it’s 14.4 at first start, then settles around 14.1 when warm, still 13.0 at wot, but I’m not going lean at wot either, I’m sure you’re on the right track by testing the regulator and pumps, good luck

 

[Stapl3]

Today I toggled the fuel pumps on, then put 40psi to the AFPR and it went up 40psi pressure no problem. I then expanded the testing by pulling the vacuum line off the intake manifold and put pressure to that line, as that is now going to the boost gauge and FPR solenoid. Well, the lines on the solenoid leaked like crazy and popped off the solenoid itself. So, my conclusion was there was an insane boost leak between the intake manifold and the AFPR, it being at the solenoid connection. I have bypassed the solenoid for now as the connection on there is not barbed and if it slips off I lose an engine.

I had a thought that this testing is kinda flawed though as the injectors aren't bleeding off pressure during the test, so while I can get the pressure with an air compressor to do as expected, there's a giant variable missing. I also had an after thought to try higher pressure to the AFPR and see what the limitation of the system is, but again, the injectors are closed rather than moving A LOT of fuel out of the system. I have tried to DIY clean injectors in the past and toggled them open with a few volts, so I could do that and have them be at 100% IDC during the test, but it would be such an insane setup to test that by pulling the rail and having the injectors flow not into the engine.

After doing this I started the car hoping for a pull to see if my vacuum line redoing helped, but voltage was in the low 12s at idle and 12.6 during cruise. Alternator is doing next to zero. I am so sick of this voltage shit. My big idea is to use a 16v alternator and 14v battery, but I have no idea how to obtain that alternator or if a local shop can modify the unit I have do to so.

 

[Capt Obvious]

Have you had any of these alternators tested by an alternator shop? It seems impossible that you could have this many bad alternators without there being another factor causing the issue. You're 137% sure all the wiring to/from the alternator is correct?

 

[Stapl3]

Have you had any of these alternators tested by an alternator shop? It seems impossible that you could have this many bad alternators without there being another factor causing the issue. You're 137% sure all the wiring to/from the alternator is correct?

There was one spot that I wouldn't call bad or wrong, but room for improvement. It's the positive connection point where the positive terminal of the battery used to live in the engine bay. Today I put in a distribution block, this thing is oversized to say the least. It's firmly in place on it's own just by the nature of the wires attached, but I did a zip tie for peace of mind. This winter I'll be making a proper bracket for it.

I'm still living at voltage in the 12's after this.

Option 1 is put in a self-exciting Motorcityreman Mitsu unit that I've had for 10+ years that did give me voltage in the upper 13's.
Option 2 is take this current alternator to the local alternator/generator shop and pick their brain and have them go through it.
Option 3 is pursue a 16v alternator and swapping to a 14v battery.

On top of this, I took the car out for a pull and at about 6k rpm the car still goes MAD lean. I am nearly convinced one of the 450s is dead, so the other is giving the rail fuel AND pushing fuel backwards through the dead pump and out the fuel sock. It's that or the regulator is bad, but I place my chips on a bad pump. If I pull that assembly out, it'll be up for sale and I'll put a stock assembly in that's modified to use a large external pump.

Pretty wild to have overkilled these things only to have them shit the bed.

 

[Justin DuBois]

I feel your pain with voltage - Its been a constant maintenance point. I had it good for a while. It was giving good 13.5v WOT and 14-14.5v cruising, and now it has gone weak again. We shall see what this next rebuild will produce. I get why Saturn alternators are used. How many times do you go stock and fail before switching teams?

 

[curt-s]

Two things I've seen put a lot of stress on the voltage regulator of an alternator is a bad battery (cell damage) or an intermittent short causing constant over current situations that would only show up with vibration of driving. However, when the regulators go, they usually fail to reign in voltage and you end up in 15v+ territory.
Or the alternator starts producing some wicked AC ripple..

 

[Stapl3]

It became very obvious the injectors where giving me a ton of grief, I could see it diminish each time I tried to start the car. I had a theory the injectors were not fully closing, dumping all the fuel in the rail into the head after shutdown making it a bi*** to start and who knows what other issues go along with that once it is running.

I pulled the 2150s out and there was zero fuel coming out of the rail when I pulled it apart. I put in another set of 2150s that I've been hoarding for a few years, but these turned out to be completely gunked shut so I walked away from the car for quite some time out of frustration. When I did go back and pull the injectors out a TON of fuel came out of the rail, so that did confirm my theory of the original 2150s not fully closing.

FIC and other places wanted about $25 per injector to clean. I guess that would be fine if I had only this car, but I have a few DSMs and multiple sets of injectors. I decided to try it myself. I bought a ultrasonic cleaner and 2 fuel injector pulser units. The injectors I put in glass bowls and filled the rest of the tub with water. After brining it up to a temp of 80c, I would turn the vibrating on the ultrasonic cleaner itself and at the same time toggle the pulser units to open and shut the injectors. The units are connected to a battery charger I set at 20amps and 30min timing along with the ultrasonic cleaner timed at 30min. It was pretty satisfyingly to have both shut off at the same time.
The injectors went through 4 stages of chemical for a total of 2 hours run time. The first round would be brake cleaner, followed by WD40, followed by Evapo-rust, then finally Lucas injector cleaner. I wasn't punctual with this process going immediately from one chemical to the next, the injectors did 'pickle' overnight for a couple of those rounds.

(1550s pictured with some nuts/bolts in the left bowl)

Before/after cleaning my bin of OEM nuts/bolts/etc

When I went to put my cleaned 2150s in, I noticed the wires on injector connectors were loose and a couple just slid right out of the plastic clips. This is a giant problem I'm glad I caught. Rather than epoxy the wires back into the clips I decided to be an adult and solder in some new pigtails.

Upon starting the car it fired up pretty easily, held idle great, and voltage was improved. The behavior of the car was very much so improved, driving it was very nice. Anything over ~1500rpm would give me 14v and at idle it would creep down to 13v at best. I think I can live with that for now. I have no interest in pulling the alternator out yet again to experiment with pulley sizes and I'm not interested in idling the car at 1500rpm.

I think I can take cleaning the injectors to another level by using a modified rail and fuel pump to actually push the cleaning fluid through the injector while toggling them to open and shut, but that's a project for this winter. As of now this cleaning method seems to be a success.

 

[CrackedDSM]

You've successfully convinced me to send my injectors off to get cleaned.

 

[Stapl3]

You've successfully convinced me to send my injectors off to get cleaned.

I just went out to start it again and see how it would do after 5 hours of sitting. It fired up immediately, like quarter of a crank almost scared me how fast it popped off. I turned it off after a minute and it restarted with ease. I don't know if this was my silver bullet but it was definitely a positive. Looks like I'll be cleaning and swapping injectors on a regular basis around here, there's no going back..

 

[Stapl3]

Here's a video of it starting in 48 degree weather. Not bad for e85 on 2150s and 280 cams! Crazy to think a year ago this car wouldn't even start or hold idle without using your right foot for a few min.

 

[CrackedDSM]

God I wish mine would idle that smoothly. Meh.

 

[Stapl3]

God I wish mine would idle that smoothly. Meh.

When all the variables become (correct) constants, good things start to happen.

I took the Laser out today and it drove just fine. So now that put me back to finally addressing it going mad lean at WOT. I did my final, of all time ever, WOT pull on this setup because it very quickly shot to 18:1. I'm convinced one of the 450's is not working, the other is providing fuel to the rail until it just can't anymore because paired with job of pumping to the rail it is also pumping reverse through a dead pump out the dead pumps fuel sock back into the tank. This is hella frustrating after all the work I did to the dual pump setup this summer. If this wasn't going on, I'd be running as much boost as this 6262 will put out. There is no limitation to me driving around in a ridiculously fast car right right now aside of this.
The lesson here is when using multiple pumps, have a check valve on their outlets. If I did that, I'd probably be doing fine. Yeah, I'd have one 450 at max tilt instead of two, but that would be totally acceptable right now.

My new fuel setup will be as follows. A stock fuel pump hanger with a "stock" pump. Outside of the hanger this will go to a check valve and butt into a -10 T fitting. Next to the "stock" fuel pump will be a -12 pick up tube. It will exit the hanger to a Weldon 2345A pump, check valve, then to the straight through part of the -10 T fitting. Under normal operation the car will idle and cruise like any other DSM having a stock fuel pump or 190 or whatever I have. At ~5psi boost, the 2345A pump will kick on. I talked with Jim @ Weldon and he was a class act and verified my plan will work while giving some strict must do's and don'ts. This setup is a bit much for a 6262 turbo but I have a divided T4 super99 setup here I'm itching to use along with trying out nitrous for spool. Cost-wise this puts me at about the same as a mechanical pump, which is the all end all, but I don't want to redo the entire system and installing the pump is a whole thing I just don't want to do.

 

[Stapl3]

And so it begins. This thing is a beast.

 

[Stapl3]

Soft update. After months of looking for a 1g awd hanger this is all I could come up with in that time. It will be workable so long as the rust didn't pit the top of the 'hat' too bad, which I don't think it has. The hanger is so damn simple I've had thoughts of just making one from scratch.

The only thing I really have to do with this is weld on a -6 push-lock fitting to the exterior where I cut off the hardline, install a 190 pump or whatever I deem reliable that I have here on hand, and finally put in a -12 hardline from down next to the pump sock up through the top hat to a -12 push-lock fitting. There's no wiring at all and if this hanger/pump was in excellent condition I would really just be drilling a big hole in the hat for the -12 line, seal it up via weld, and move on. It's very simple compared to the current setup.

Aside of cleaning this thing up the best I can, next step is learn a little more about push-lock then order the fittings/hose and go for it.

 

[TerminalTalon]

Not trying to jack Staple’s thread and it sucks seeing all the alternator issues, but which one from advanced are you using their remanufactured in Mexico job or the brand new from China unit? With the AutoZone “Duralast” alternators on my dsm I’d have the voltage regulators constantly fail so I was considering trying the brand new made in China one they offer as “Duralast gold”, as I bought the cheapest Chinese alternator from rockauto labeled as “Wai global” for my 94’ Ranger and I’ve had no issue yet pretty much dailying it in the summer months so I figured what do I have to lose.

I’m a shop foreman for reference.
All of those Chinese remans suck IMO. It’s a gamble every time with it not working correctly most of the time. It’s either OEM manufacturer like Denso or bust.
We say there’s a reason they give you a lifetime warranty. You’ll forever be replacing it.

 

[CrackedDSM]

I’m a shop foreman for reference.
All of those Chinese remans suck IMO. It’s a gamble every time with it not working correctly most of the time. It’s either OEM manufacturer like Denso or bust.
We say there’s a reason they give you a lifetime warranty. You’ll forever be replacing it.

The Mitsubishi regulator is still made and is like $20. I've heard if you solder it in place of the cheap chinese regulator in the chinese units, they last long like OEM ones. I'm gonna do that when my current one fails.

 

[TerminalTalon]

The Mitsubishi regulator is still made and is like $20. I've heard if you solder it in place of the cheap chinese regulator in the chinese units, they last long like OEM ones. I'm gonna do that when my current one fails.

We actually have a starter, alternator etc rebuild shop that’s been around for a long time that hasn’t been eaten up over the years. Good people so if I need something down in the price range and for availability I can send it to them but I know that’s rare nowadays.

 

[Stapl3]

I had a 3/4" pick-up tube made, paired it with a 12an bulkhead. For the stock housing, all I had to do was delete the stock electrical bulkheads for the + pump wire, ground wire for assembly, and the low fuel sensor. There is just enough room for this tube and fittings. I decided to order some washers for the inside and outside of the assembly 'hat' for a clean pass through for the bulkhead. Between the condition of the outside of the housing and leftover passthrough holes from the electrical bulkheads, big washers will be the ticket. Lots more to come.

 

[Stapl3]

On to the washers for making a proper pass-through. I couldn't source them local, so off to McMaster. After the shipping fee these few washers added up to almost 30 bucks. I sat there and stared at the monitor for a few minutes before going F-it, order the parts. My pocket is still hurting.

Measuring the OD of the threads on the bulkhead I needed washers with an ID of 27mm. The nylon washers were spot on while the stainless washers needed some help starting at 25mm. Never thought I would be carbide bit porting my fuel pump assembly, but here I am.