655 awhp 490 torque on pump gas with HX52/19cm HX40 housing

[boost97gst]

I have nothing but praise for these two guys, especially boostdriven, but yea, it cant TRULY be called pump when you spray. A technicality . Pump gas, on this forum, means a max of 93 maybe 94 octane with no meth or no2.
But then again, alot of people who have dyno sheets i see do say pump gas, then look at their mod list and they show a meth kit.
Its still a shit god load of power from 2L of engine. U da man bro. Keep doin weird housing ideas, , im practically sold on one already. You could make some dough doing this, seriously

 

[dsmcurse]

Great numbers BoostDriven. As far as getting the car to 25* advance, I recommend tuning it on the dyno and doing a few degrees at a time until you see minimal gains or even lose power advancing the timing. I tuned my car on the dyno and at 17* advance we were at 437/387, kicked peak timing up to 20* and the car did 440/390. Why run the motor harder for no gain?

Looking forward to the race gas pulls.

If it's on pump gas making 600+whp then empty the meth/water tank and run it on the dyno on straight pump gas. Oh wait.

You can also get 110oct out of the PUMP as well as E85, does that make it PUMP gas too? A meth pump/tank can be bolted on just like a bottle of nitrous, claiming that they're both just another bolt-on like a K&N air filter or a Tial wastegate is ignorant.

Of course it comes from the pump, how else are they gonna sell it to you? Its obvious the point is was trying to make. Your gonna take that as litteral? Av gas and E85 are in a differant realm than good 'ol fashion Exxon 91octane PUMP. And why chime in for homeboy when HE was the one who early says "man I'm gettin water meth as my next mod" sends the guy a private message asking a number of respectfully worded questions and then later says I'm sick of hearing about water blah blah blah with a attitude kinda soundin thing. Who cares. Honestly who cares that's all I. Have to say.

And to me its like there's always the vibe "hostility" from you. I'm not sure why? But. Agin, I don't care. Your a smart guy, and you know what I meant about it being "just another bolt on" you make it sound like its. A BIG GIANT OR-DEAL MAGICAL DEVICE puttin it in the same playin feild as nitrous and C16. ITS NOT.

Have you personally ever taken a motor apart after running water/meth? Then you would know how perfect shiny clean your piston tops were and the valves were. I personally don't even run water/meth for the performance I run it for the automatic internal engine cleaning device.

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

A BIG GIANT OR-DEAL MAGICAL DEVICE puttin it in the same playin feild as nitrous and C16. ITS NOT.

It most definitely is not in the same playing field as regular ole 91 though.

 

[Raymond1927]

Meth injection or not. I'm in just to see what this monster turbo will do on some race gas....

 

[dsmcurse]

That's it? Ill just walk away...

I have a one gallon tank plastic jug mounted on my car, once or twice a month I put windsheild wiper fluid in it. I drive my car everyday and I run 91 octane at the gas station, diet pump fuel...

If you can't dig the genrall idea of what I'm sayin then its pointless.

 

[945liter]

So the same would apply to me? i have e85 pumps all around and it cost me less then premium and i drive it all around, pump gas car?

 

[Boostdriven]

I think some of you are looking at it the wrong way, water/meth is nothing like race gas. Sure you can make more power running water/meth but the question is how and why.

Any gas (fuel) is limited by the pressure in the cylinder, pump gas is kind of at the bottom of the totem poll. If you run to much boost on straight 92 you can have ignition of fuel before the spark fires, that's called predetonation (pre-ignition detonation) and when you have predetonation there is nothing you can to with timing to avoid it, you just have to lower your cylinder pressure by lowering your boost. Higher boost creates more pressure in the cylinder at the top of a compression stroke therefore causing predetonation. Knock on the other hand is controllable by timing. You can run 15 psi of boost and have knock due to to much timing, so all you do is drop your timing and off you go. Most people will run about 22-24 psi on straight pump gas with no water/meth, anything above that and you may have some problems.

I'm my opinion I wouldn't say that running 50/50 mix of water/meth adds HP. If you break things down in to numbers it almost don't make sense but it works. So figuratively speaking, let's say I have 1350cc injectors. At 8000 rpms my injector duty cycle is at 80% so some quick math, 80% out of 1350 is 1080cc of fuel. Now since I have water/meth I'm also spraying 315cc in to each cylinder at 100% duty cycle of water/meth. Since its a 50/50 mix let's say 155cc of that mix is WATER the other 50% is methanol. Methanol itself is very slow burning liquid, you can hardly see the flame when it burns. So 1080gas+155water+160meth=1395cc of "fuel" now out of that total flammable liquid about 12% is water, (1080gas+160meth=1240cc of flammable fuel, 155/1240=12%) how many of you have seen water burn I've tried to lite the water/meth mix on fire and it will burn but very slowly and only methanol burns out and the water remains.

Water/meth being mixed with the fuel (92 octane in this case) slows down the fuel burn lowering the predetonation point of the fuel allowing you to run higher cylinder pressure (more boost) and as you lower your predetonation point you can run more advanced timing to ignite the fuel, that's one side of it. The other side is that since now you run more boost (more air) you need more fuel to compensate for more air and more fuel = more power. If I was to run 23 psi of boost my injector duty cycle would probably be 50%, so at 50% of 1350cc injectors I'm only spraying 675cc of fuel not 1080cc. All said and done its the 92 octane gas that makes the power not water/meth. Water/meth just allows you to spray more fuel to be burned at higher cylinder pressure therefore making more power.

Similar situation goes for race gas except race gas is 100% fuel not deluded with water/meth mixture. Race gas like C16 has a lower predetonation point allowing you to run more boost and timing but that's not all. Being a slower burning fuel, as it burns it produces more pressure and combined with more boost and earlier ignition (advanced timing) makes more power. I'm not going to get in to all the properties of gas vs race gas but that's the general idea of it.

 

[kidtsi]

This is just ignorant...








and funny.

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

So the same would apply to me? i have e85 pumps all around and it cost me less then premium and i drive it all around, pump gas car?

Hell yeah bro! 9's on pump gas! Tell me how it's done!

 

[Boostdriven]

This is just ignorant...

and funny.

Wow for a second there I was speechless but then all kind of things started to come to mind that I would like to say to you but I do have to hold my tongue at times because of the watchful eyes of the moderators waiting to send out a warning my way

This may be a little off topic but since its not the first time you chime in soiling my thread with your none sensible remarks I feel I kind of have a right to ask you few off topic questions. Who tunes your car for you KID? Wait let's back up a bit, how do you come up with a screen name like KIDTSI? where is the idea of a KID came in? are you a fan of kidrock because kidrock is badass, that white trash hill billy is making millions, what are you making? Oh wait, your not making anything, you're just buying a bunch of bolt on parts that require a wrench and a little bit of skill, that don't mean you're all of a sudden smart and have common sense, they teach a bear to ride a bicycle just because you followed the instructions from FP on how to properly oil their turbo doesn't make you a tuner. So don't be saying stupid comments just because half the things I say go over your head. KID... I forgot more then you will ever know

I better not get a warning for this, he asked for it with his childish arrogance and if he thinks he's the man then he should be able to take it like a man. If no one tells him off once or twice he will never learn, though I doubt he will learn.

So the same would apply to me? i have e85 pumps all around and it cost me less then premium and i drive it all around, pump gas car?

And you don't be stupid, you know what we mean by pump gas. What the hell you think they pump 110 octane fuel out of, a damn bucket?

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

I think we should just get back on the topic here. The whole fueling thing can be it's own shitstorm thread.

I think the set up is bad ass. I love how it seems like every thing is well within its comfort level so you can romp the crap out if at will without worrying about it exploding. I wish I could say the same haha.

I see you make it a habit of measuring drive pressure. Have you ever measured the drive pressure of an HX40 in the BEP bolt-on housing? Was it not similar to an HX52 in a BEP T3?

 

[Boostdriven]

I see you make it a habit of measuring drive pressure. Have you ever measured the drive pressure of an HX40 in the BEP bolt-on housing? Was it not similar to an HX52 in a BEP T3?

I did but it was a long time ago so I can't remember the numbers but I do remember that drive pressure was higher then boost, I run a GM 3 bar sensor to log drive pressure and it was maxed out before red line. HX52 inside a ported bep .70 is nothing like HX40 inside a bep bolt on, with HX52 the drive pressure is about 80-85% of what the boost pressure is. I use a 19cm HX40 housing on my turbo but I think that neither of the housings will be a restriction even at 40+ psi of boost.

 

[ceedawg]

This is just ignorant...








and funny.

Why? REALLY! And THIS!!WTF

Please don't mess up the thread with unecessary antagonism! If you disagree and have another constructive point of view just post it!!!!!!!

 

[WES_393]

Any gas (fuel) is limited by the pressure in the cylinder

Fuel is limited by pressure and temperature, which are directly related under the Ideal Gas Law. The anti-knock rating of a fuel is tested with various compression ratios, intake/fuel temperatures, and amounts of ignition timing. They all play a role in cylinder pressure and temperature.

I'm my opinion I wouldn't say that running 50/50 mix of water/meth adds HP.

Water/meth being mixed with the fuel (92 octane in this case) slows down the fuel burn lowering the predetonation point of the fuel allowing you to run higher cylinder pressure (more boost) and as you lower your predetonation point you can run more advanced timing to ignite the fuel, that's one side of it. The other side is that since now you run more boost (more air) you need more fuel to compensate for more air and more fuel = more power.

Race gas like C16 has a lower predetonation point allowing you to run more boost and timing but that's not all. Being a slower burning fuel, as it burns it produces more pressure and combined with more boost and earlier ignition (advanced timing) makes more power.

So they both burn slower and allow for more boost/timing, yet one doesn't add power or give you an advantage over straight pump gas? That makes sense...

The truth is, Water/Meth injection increases the potential output of the engine, just like E85 or Nitrous. It does it by raising the knock resistance of your fuel, cooling the cylinders, and drastically reducing IAT's. Below ambient in some cases. When injecting pre-compressor the cooling effect is even greater and can significantly increase compressor efficiency. None of this info is news to anybody your arguing with.

 

[rrussell]

Boostdriven nice work on your setup!!!

 

[dsmcurse]

This is just ignorant...








and funny.

says MR. bolt-on....

build your own stuff and tune it your self, see how far you go, i bet you didnt rig half of your engine bay.

(then he fires back with a...)

"oh I own 13 differant cars, think I got time for one engine bay? wanna see my pictures of all 13 of my cars that I didnt build?"

 

[945liter]

And you don't be stupid, you know what we mean by pump gas. What the hell you think they pump 110 octane fuel out of, a damn bucket?

Whats stupid besides the garbage you're putting out about your PUMP GAS with meth?

e85 is not RACE FUEL, plenty of cars run it from the factory i have e85 pumps every 5-8 miles around me.

#1 it cost me less then your magic pump 93 before adding your meth injection.

#2 What everyone is talking about is the cocky snotty tude you have because you put a # on a MD with nothing to back it up and your cheerleader hanging off that sack.

#3 i drove my car to the track and went 9.5 on low boost and drove it back home not just a dyno, thats a PUMP GAS street car... I also stopped at the turnpike gas station to fill up on my PUMP E85, did i mention the track is 1hr each direction.

I still don't see the stupid... besides running 93 oct on a 4cyl , but calling it PUMP GAS cars on meth. If you wanna brag about building a true pump gas car start with a v8.

I was trying to be civil but you guys have some kind of chip on your shoulders, I don't mean to rain on your parade but the real pump gas 2g KING is SBCXtreme,

he might not have a stupid sheet to back up # claims but you're cars wont hold a candle at the track ET or MPH and his car is probably heavier and a TRUE 93 Pump car.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qyRBKDK-JQ]Automagic - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Boostdriven]

Boostdriven nice work on your setup!!!

Thanks you sir.

Fuel is limited by pressure and temperature, which are directly related under the Ideal Gas Law. The anti-knock rating of a fuel is tested with various compression ratios, intake/fuel temperatures, and amounts of ignition timing. They all play a role in cylinder pressure and temperature.

So they both burn slower and allow for more boost/timing, yet one doesn't add power or give you an advantage over straight pump gas? That makes sense...

The truth is, Water/Meth injection increases the potential output of the engine, just like E85 or Nitrous. It does it by raising the knock resistance of your fuel, cooling the cylinders, and drastically reducing IAT's. Below ambient in some cases. When injecting pre-compressor the cooling effect is even greater and can significantly increase compressor efficiency. None of this info is news to anybody your arguing with.

If 92 octane was the same thing as C16 for example then a guy who is paying over $10 dollars a gallon for C16 is wasting his money, so don't repeat what I say in your own words trying to make yourself look smart

Whats stupid besides the garbage you're putting out about your PUMP GAS with meth?

e85 is not RACE FUEL, plenty of cars run it from the factory i have e85 pumps every 5-8 miles around me.

#1 it cost me less then your magic pump 93 before adding your meth injection.

#2 What everyone is talking about is the cocky snotty tude you have because you put a # on a MD with nothing to back it up and your cheerleader hanging off that sack.

#3 i drove my car to the track and went 9.5 on low boost and drove it back home not just a dyno, thats a PUMP GAS street car... I also stopped at the turnpike gas station to fill up on my PUMP E85, did i mention the track is 1hr each direction.

I still don't see the stupid... besides running 93 oct on a 4cyl , but calling it PUMP GAS cars on meth. If you wanna brag about building a true pump gas car start with a v8.

I was trying to be civil but you guys have some kind of chip on your shoulders, I don't mean to rain on your parade but the real pump gas 2g KING is SBCXtreme,

he might not have a stupid sheet to back up # claims but you're cars wont hold a candle at the track ET or MPH and his car is probably heavier and a TRUE 93 Pump car.

Automagic - YouTube

I am so very happy for you with e85 your probably dumping twice as much fuel in to the cylinder as I am with 92 so if you think your car will make the same power on 92 octane with water/meth then you should try it.

 

[importracr317]

C'mon guys, this is not really a discussion is it?

Nothing but 91-93 octane in the tank is a "pump gas set-up". Anything else isn't.... it's "on N2O" or "on meth". Just qualify it, that's all. Lots of threads with "500 on pump gas, 625 on the bottle". Both are impressive, so who cares?

Excellent numbers on pump gas w/ meth. I'd be interested to see what it would put down on lower boost with just straight 92 or 93. Maybe not cracking the 600's, but I'm sure it would still be a beast.

 

[945liter]

I am so very happy for you with e85 your probably dumping twice as much fuel in to the cylinder as I am with 92 so if you think your car will make the same power on 92 octane with water/meth then you should try it.

I like to make power, not waste time with walmart meth injections
Don't thank me thank sbcXtreme for being the pump gas boss.

Go back up your claims on the track! look at this car from 3 years ago on a STOCK bottom end pump and METH and alot smaller framed turbo then that semi 67mm.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYeuP0Z22tw]Todd Meunier's 10 Second Eagle Talon - YouTube[/ame]

 

[dsmcurse]

okay, pump-gas "w/ meth" there you go homeboy, its changed. pump w/ meth. I'll make sure to include that statement in everything i say from here out to keep you happy. I think your the one with a chip on your shoulder. You all slot up in on someones nice thread about makin power and just $hit all over it. Cool, good for you.

Im happy you drove to the track and did that time, and still drove home. Trust me, we'll drive a hour to our local track this summer and put down a decent time too, and drive home. On pump "w/ meth" or let me re-phrase that, "wal-mart injection"

Sound a bit jelous in my opinion, but thats just what i think?

 

[945liter]

Why are you saying "homeboy"? what are you trying to imply? like i said i asked serious questions before but all the replies are butthurt and telling me that e85 isn't pump . you guys have a chip on your shoulders well maybe not you so much but his sack is sore from your swinging.


You're absolutely right, I'm totally jealous... at the fact you make much less power then me on a much larger turbo on more boost. Hopefully you post those track times soon that you're so confident will go well that's when reality kicks in.

 

[gofer]

Check yourselves on the back and fourth, this isn't a pissing contest. This is the dyno talk forum so track times are irrelevant, some Tuners build their cars to be dyno queens and others use the dyno as a means to tune and only really care about the numbers that light up at the end of the track. Also, knocking people for spending money on "bolt-ons" is ridiculous. Making custom IM/exhaust manifolds/IC piping/etc. etc. etc. is great but the majority of us don't have the tools, money, or knowledge to design these parts. That doesn't mean the guys that buy bolt-ons don't have the same PASSION or love for these cars that you have, so don't rake them over the coals for buying quality bolt-on mods.

A 650whp/500tq DSM is impressive no matter what the setup, even with a big 'ole turbo you're doing something right if it's putting down that much power.

Weren't both these cars (boostdriven and dsmcurse) going up on the dyno? I was definitely looking forward to seeing both HX52 results since they're similar setups, just a different hotside. Maybe I just missed that thread?

 

[Boostdriven]

Why are you saying "homeboy"? what are you trying to imply? like i said i asked serious questions before but all the replies are butthurt and telling me that e85 isn't pump . you guys have a chip on your shoulders well maybe not you so much but his sack is sore from your swinging.


You're absolutely right, I'm totally jealous... at the fact you make much less power then me on a much larger turbo on more boost. Hopefully you post those track times soon that you're so confident will go well that's when reality kicks in.

Stop soiling my thread, you want to share your e85 pump gas track times start a new thread and if you don't have any useful info to share how I could have made more power with my setup on 92/water/meth then don't say anything at all. There are thousands of other cars out there that make more power and are faster then me but who gives a shit.

 

[RedTalonTsi]

Grudge match at the next Shootout? Seems like the only viable solution.