550-800awhp fuel system

[Moonlight GSX]

After reading up on a few old threads, I understand that our stock fuel rails can handle a bit which is one less thing I'll need to purchase. I've also read that -6 AN send and return lines are perfect (or unless I read wrong) for 650whp, which is also fine. But the problem/confusion that I'm getting is what about power reaching 800whp? My goal is to start up slow and work my way to 550 and then on to 600... and so on (if you get what I mean).

Basically, is there a fuel system that will work at 550whp BUT also work at 800whp? I'm talking from the the tank and back again. My current "plan" is to run -8AN tank to rail > -8AN rail to FPR > and -6AN or -8AN return, all to and from a dual in-tank setup (rather than one feeding another - just want it that way). As for the injectors I'll know I have to change them with varying horsepower... anyways let me know what you think. Please help me out - all thoughts, opinions, and setups (pictures or not) welcome! Thanks DSMtuners.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

What fuel? Anything that can support 800+hp would obviously be what you need. A a1000 sounds like it would do the trick. All depends on the fuel. Maybe 2x bosch 044 might be more of what you're looking for.

 

[Moonlight GSX]

I'm going to try and keep it on pump gas (93 octane). I was thinking of two Walbro 255lph using the Full Blown dual hanger. But what about the rest of the setup? -8AN too much for return on the 800+ setup? Does it hurt the injectors for the 550hp opposed to the injectors on the 800hp setup or do the injectors of the 550hp use only what they need passing thru the rail?

 

[hubz91talontsi]

I wouldn't worry about the rail.. I'd be more worried with how I'm going to make 800hp on pump gas. 1650cc injectors would probably be enough on pump. You need to look into using at least a race fuel like q16 in order to meet that 800hp goal.

 

[Moonlight GSX]

But before then I'd be perfectly fine on 93, Q16 is a bit expensive but I guess by the time I make it a complete track car Q19 will be no problem. But how far would I get on 93 (hp wise)?

 

[hubz91talontsi]

That all depends on the money you want to spend and if you are shooting for some sort of record. I think there are only a handful of cars making making that kind of power on pump. We are talking the big dogs.. Kiggly,shep,extreme tuners.., big money.

 

[Moonlight GSX]

Well I don't have to do it all at once, I figured if I space it out it won't be "as bad" as doing it all at once ya know?

 

[LiquidX]

I would look into a mechanical drive pump like this one.
Aeromotive | 11107 - Billet Hex Drive Fuel Pump

It'll be ran off of the cam gear with an adapter cover.

 

[tron2119]

-8 pump to rail and -8 return will get you there just fine.

 

[codeofdastreets]

I wouldn't worry about the rail.. I'd be more worried with how I'm going to make 800hp on pump gas. 1650cc injectors would probably be enough on pump. You need to look into using at least a race fuel like q16 in order to meet that 800hp goal.

If he gets hi-imp injectors he can"t use the q fuels.. He"d need to use c-16 instead

 

[tron2119]

Minus well run E85. Race gas octane that cost less than 87oct. That is if you have it available around you. It will require bigger injectors since E85 it harder to push (thicker than gasoline). But a WAY better option IMO than race gas.

 

[LiquidX]

Minus well run E85. Race gas octane that cost less than 87oct. That is if you have it available around you. It will require bigger injectors since E85 it harder to push (thicker than gasoline). But a WAY better option IMO than race gas.

You use bigger injectors since you inject MORE fuel using E85. Anually you will spend more using e85 than with gasoline for that reason alone.

 

[mitsubishi9908]

i made 588 WHP on STM's mustang dyno,Walbro 400 LPH pump, FIC 2150 on E85.

 

[jmartinez1228]

Is it possible to run a dual in tank setup that can be modified to run off one pump until he actually needs the second pump? IE: unplug the pump

 

[dexterholland04]

I have a double pumper (2x Walbro 255's), STM -6 Feed Lines, RCI 1200's, RCI AFPR, RCI -6 in/out Fuel Rail. I'm looking to push around around the 500 mark on pump with this setup. We'll see.....

 

[92GSXtacy]

Is it possible to run a dual in tank setup that can be modified to run off one pump until he actually needs the second pump? IE: unplug the pump

You could use a hobbs switch.

 

[twicks69]

Minus well run E85. Race gas octane that cost less than 87oct. That is if you have it available around you. It will require bigger injectors since E85 it harder to push (thicker than gasoline). But a WAY better option IMO than race gas.

I know it has already been revised by LiquidX, but you are COMPLETELY WRONG. Also, please, please, please, learn how to:
*Spell
*Use proper grammar
*Use proper punctuation
*Use the correct word to describe something. "Minus well run E85" is NOT THE SAME AS "You might as well run E85".

Please do more homework on these subjects. E85 is not thicker than gasoline, or race gasoline, or gasoline/ethanol mixes. The term of viscosity is normally not used to describe a petroleum distillate (LNAPL which means light non-aqueous phase liquid; i.e. something that floats on water; such as gasoline). Instead, we refer to specific gravity, or density. For the vapors that volatilize off of gasoline and its consitituents, we describe them by its specific conductivity or Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP).

In this circumstance, gasoline (or gas/ethanol blends), E85, race gasoline, etc. have similar specific gravities, slightly varying densities (but all in the same general range), and varying RVP's based upon the gasoline consituents in the blend. E85 has a lower volatilization rate than gasoline (pump gas or gas/10% blend), and pump gas has a lower rate of volatilization than a leaded race fuel like C16, and all these fuels tend to have a lower rate of volatilization than an oxygenated race fuel like VP Q16 or VP Import.

With that said, the actual reason why you need a larger fuel system capacity roughly based on 24-26% than a system designed for race gas, or 28%-30% larger than a system designed for pump gas is because e85 requires more volume to produce the same level of combustion efficiency. The MJ/L energy content of E85 is around 25.0-25.2, while in comparison to gasoline w/10% ethanol or race fuel being around 33.5-35 MJ/L energy content. This would result in a 24%-26% lower energy content based on the same volume, so increasing your fuel volume 24-26% would be to compensate for the loss of energy by making the variable be volume and keeping the combustion energy as the constant. The end result (with several other variables of course) would be similar power production (combustion energy) from E85 vs. gasoline, resulting in the requirement of compensating the fuel system requirements by increasing fuel injector size and fuel delivery capacity for this % difference plus extra as a safety factor.

 

[Moonlight GSX]

I know it has already been revised by LiquidX, but you are COMPLETELY WRONG. Also, please, please, please, learn how to:
*Spell
*Use proper grammar
*Use proper punctuation
*Use the correct word to describe something. "Minus well run E85" is NOT THE SAME AS "You might as well run E85".

Please do more homework on these subjects. E85 is not thicker than gasoline, or race gasoline, or gasoline/ethanol mixes. The term of viscosity is normally not used to describe a petroleum distillate (LNAPL which means light non-aqueous phase liquid; i.e. something that floats on water; such as gasoline or ethyl alcohol). Instead, we refer to specific gravity, or density. For the vapors that volatilize off of gasoline and its consitituents, we describe them by its specific conductivity or Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP).

In this circumstance, gasoline (or gas/ethanol blends), E85, race gasoline, etc. have similar specific gravities, slightly varying densities (but all in the same general range), and varying RVP's based upon the gasoline consituents in the blend. E85 has a lower volatilization rate than gasoline (pump gas or gas/10% blend), and pump gas has a lower rate of volatilization than a leaded race fuel like C16, and all these fuels tend to have a lower rate of volatilization than an oxygenated race fuel like VP Q16 or E85.

With that said, the actual reason why you need a larger fuel system capacity roughly based on 24-26% than a system designed for race gas, or 28%-30% larger than a system designed for pump gas is because e85 requires more volume to produce the same level of combustion efficiency. The MJ/L energy content of E85 is around 25.0-25.2, while in comparison to gasoline w/10% ethanol or race fuel being around 33.5-35 MJ/L energy content. This would result in a 24%-26% lower energy content based on the same volume, so increasing your fuel volume 24-26% would be to compensate for the loss of energy by making the variable be volume and keeping the combustion energy as the constant. The end result (with several other variables of course) would be similar power production (combustion energy) from E85 vs. gasoline, resulting in the requirement of compensating the fuel system requirements by increasing fuel injector size and fuel delivery capacity for this % difference plus extra as a safety factor.

With this being said, I'm understanding that E85 has a higher fuel consumption than pump gas due to its volumetric displacement? Or rather, it will fill the area of each cylinder more so than that of the E85 fuel, right?

 

[twicks69]

I'm going to try and keep it on pump gas (93 octane). I was thinking of two Walbro 255lph using the Full Blown dual hanger. But what about the rest of the setup? -8AN too much for return on the 800+ setup? Does it hurt the injectors for the 550hp opposed to the injectors on the 800hp setup or do the injectors of the 550hp use only what they need passing thru the rail?

The full-blown pump hanger is a waste of money and a complete restriction in its design. If you are going to purchase one, I strongly recommend doing major modifications to it so it can actually flow fuel. The side ports are a complete bottleneck in design as the internal passageway is short and a sharp angle. I machined mine to have two seperate ports on the top so that each fuel pump has a straight shot flowing the fuel then through a 3/8" NPT to -6AN straight adapter fitting, then to a 90-degree -6AN tube fitting on stainless braided hose.

Personally, instead of spending several hundred dollars on a pump hanger that is completely flawed in its design, simply run an in-line walbro 255HP fuel pump (GSL392) - Walbro Inline Fuel Pumps - with M10x1.0 to -6AN male-to-male adaptor fittings with crush washers and -6AN fuel line.

Keep the fuel pumps on the same feed line, and replace the in-tank fuel pump with a fresh one or at least a fresh pickup filter, and hardwire both pumps. Use a Signalstat 192 relay with 8-gauge from battery to relay, and 10-gauge power/grounds for pumps and connection to chassis ground would be ideal with an 8-gauge wire. Use your stock ignition switch signal wire or MPI signal wire (same wire overall) as the trigger for the relay. Use a 60A in-line fuse assembly off the battery to the fuel pumps and 30A in-line fuses per fuel pump power wire after the relay.

This, along with a set of FIC Bluemax 1350cc or larger injectors with battery voltages above 13V and a base fuel pressure of 43psi will be enough to capacitate 800+AWHP with around 85% duty cycles. I was at 88% DTC at 835AWHP on VP Q16 race fuel with low-11 AFR's. I wouldn't run this setup past 635AWHP on E85 though due to maxing out the injectors before the fuel pumps.

As for pump gas, it depends on your setup, compression, tune and turbo. I run mine to a safe 650awhp on 3-5 degrees of timing on 93- OCTANE with 30psi on a low compression stroker motor with low/mid 11's for AFR'S. Shooting for 800awhp on pump gas, you better be a big block turbo v8 with a good intercooler to hit those kind of numbers with a usable powerband. Hitting 800awhp on pump gas in a DSM would likely be a very short powerband on a very large turbo, or a feat that few if any have attempted. I prefer VP Q16 and VP Import for high boost, and have been dabbling with E85 for 45psi and lower.

 

[1990AWD]

E85 has a higher fuel consumption because there is less energy in every gallon, therefore you need more to get the same energy as pump.

 

[twicks69]

With this being said, I'm understanding that E85 has a higher fuel consumption than pump gas due to its volumetric displacement? Or rather, it will fill the area of each cylinder more so than that of the E85 fuel, right?

More along the lines of you need more volume of E85 fuel to make the same combustion energy as gasoline or race gasoline. E85 may make more horsepower potential, mainly due to the higher octane, oxygenation, and ability to tune more aggressively before detonation due to the alcohol content.


Ninja-edit, 1990AWD is correct in his statement above.

 

[tron2119]

My bad. Thanks. I know so much more now. One post with improper grammar and I get stomped on. As for the e85 comment, my mistake. I will research more before posting.

 

[twicks69]

My bad. Thanks. I know so much more now. One post with improper grammar and I get stomped on. As for the e85 comment, my mistake. I will research more before posting.

I grammar Nazi people a lot more lately, as I read at least 50 threads a day and it is hard to help someone when you have to slow down to read something with poor grammar/spelling/punctuation. It is one of the rules on this forum, just follow it. As for the incorrect information, its fine, just understand that research and continuous learning of new things will expand your knowledge base to help people more effectively.

 

[Moonlight GSX]

I would look into a mechanical drive pump like this one.
Aeromotive#|#11107 - Billet Hex Drive Fuel Pump

It'll be ran off of the cam gear with an adapter cover.

Is this run in conjunction with an in-tank fuel pump, or is it a separate entity in itself? Along with that, would it be "forgiving" in the sense that if I were setup to run X-turbo, with Y-injectors, and Z-fuel lines it wouldn't be bias to a certain setup (i.e. something capable of 2000hp)? I've looked into this before but I always thought that anything under what they state it's capable of either doesn't have a use or is "overkill." But, if it is capable of running on lower WHP systems AND can operate/function without the need of an in-tank fuel pump then I can likely see a good use for it, it'd be something I'd have not have to worry about as I mod everything around it to expand from ~550awhp to 800+awhp.

Edit:

Just out of curiosity, considering twicks put up a good plan - but it would seem the 800+ goal is a bit "high." Maybe I could settle for 700-800?

 

[91'AWDFUN]

quick question, I have all the fuel items to make 700HP. I didn't replace my feed or return line will that cause a problem? The car is still being put together and I didn't think about replacing the lines. I will be using E85 for fuel.