550-800awhp fuel system

[twicks69]

quick question, I have all the fuel items to make 700HP. I didn't replace my feed or return line will that cause a problem? The car is still being put together and I didn't think about replacing the lines. I will be using E85 for fuel.

The stock fuel lines and fuel filter will most definitely be a restriction with E85. Also, be sure to use a stainless steel or a fiberglass fuel filter. A paper or cellulose filter will degrade and fail.

-6AN feed will be a minimum, with a -8AN recommended. If you are running alot of fuel pumps that flow too much fuel at idle (bypass), it will overrun the fuel return line. I would recommend a -6AN line for the return.

 

[91'AWDFUN]

ok so -8AN feed and -6AN return line. thanks for the help.

 

[JwpRider]

As for pump gas, it depends on your setup, compression, tune and turbo. I run mine to a safe 650awhp on 3-5 degrees of timing on 93- OCTANE with 30psi on a low compression stroker motor with low/mid 11's for AFR'S.

Great info in this thread! Speaking of capacity, I also upgraded my fuel rail, filter and Fuel Pump (rewired WB255). Also looking for 600HP on an HX40, what size lines would you recommend? Would the stock return also need to be replaced? (Running 93 Oct.)

 

[ramsack]

Is it possible to run a dual in tank setup that can be modified to run off one pump until he actually needs the second pump? IE: unplug the pump

Yes, but if that system fails, and your airflow demands outpace your fuel delivery, things will go downhill quite quickly. Safeguards can be put in place to make sure if a pump isn't turning on that you don't overboost, but that can get very complex, and that, too is open for failure.

 

[jmartinez1228]

Yes, but if that system fails, and your airflow demands outpace your fuel delivery, things will go downhill quite quickly. Safeguards can be put in place to make sure if a pump isn't turning on that you don't overboost, but that can get very complex, and that, too is open for failure.

Gotcha, thanks for the response. Does make sense.

 

[twicks69]

Great info in this thread! Speaking of capacity, I also upgraded my fuel rail, filter and Fuel Pump (rewired WB255). Also looking for 600HP on an HX40, what size lines would you recommend? Would the stock return also need to be replaced? (Running 93 Oct.)

A -6AN feed with stock return from the firewall to the tank will suffice.

 

[Moonlight GSX]

What would the possibility of problems occuring be if I ran more fuel on smaller injectors, with the assumption of upgrading said injectors to "match" fuel flow from the pump(s)?

 

[nitrouskris]

I would look into a mechanical drive pump like this one.
Aeromotive#|#11107 - Billet Hex Drive Fuel Pump

It'll be ran off of the cam gear with an adapter cover.

Magnus Motorsports » Blog Archive Magnus Mechanical Fuel Pump Drive |

I would run 10an to the pump and then 8an to fuel/rail/reg and 6an return

 

[twicks69]

What would the possibility of problems occuring be if I ran more fuel on smaller injectors, with the assumption of upgrading said injectors to "match" fuel flow from the pump(s)?

How small of injectors are you talking about? If they are a ball and seat type, the base fuel pressure can be jacked pretty high (and would work well with the mechanical fuel pump setup), while the pintle ones I am unsure about how they respond to very high base fuel pressures. The mechanical pump setup can run as high as 250psi max line pressure. Personally, for what you are doing, the ~$100-200 option I gave you earlier sounds like a smarter approach than the $2000.00 one for the mechanical pump setup with all the associated parts.

With the mechanical pump, you need a special high pressure regulator (Aeromotive #13113 ~$250), the mechanical pump (example: for 2G DSM, use Aeromotive #11107 ~$600), the bracketry to mount it (Magnus $630.00), the ORB -10AN lines and associated fittings (O-Ring Boss fittings) are around $30-$70 each fitting, and then cost of the braided stainless line, and then a high-capacity in-line check valve (Aeromotive #15107 $70), in-tank pickup pump for priming ($100), etc. As you can see, it adds up VERY QUICKLY.

I don't see why you have to over complicate such a simple fuel pump setup requirement. If you really want to get a bit more out of a simple twin pump setup, run a Kenne-bell boost-a-pump setup on it to jack the pump voltages and increase its capacity.


And this is coming from the fool running quad Walbro pumps with 8 injectors. 1/2 of my fuel system on my small primaries (1350cc) was enough to safely handle over 800AWHP on race gas.

 

[Moonlight GSX]

How small of injectors are you talking about? If they are a ball and seat type, the base fuel pressure can be jacked pretty high (and would work well with the mechanical fuel pump setup), while the pintle ones I am unsure about how they respond to very high base fuel pressures. The mechanical pump setup can run as high as 250psi max line pressure. Personally, for what you are doing, the ~$100-200 option I gave you earlier sounds like a smarter approach than the $2000.00 one for the mechanical pump setup with all the associated parts.

With the mechanical pump, you need a special high pressure regulator (Aeromotive #13113 ~$250), the mechanical pump (example: for 2G DSM, use Aeromotive #11107 ~$600), the bracketry to mount it (Magnus $630.00), the ORB -10AN lines and associated fittings (O-Ring Boss fittings) are around $30-$70 each fitting, and then cost of the braided stainless line, and then a high-capacity in-line check valve (Aeromotive #15107 $70), in-tank pickup pump for priming ($100), etc. As you can see, it adds up VERY QUICKLY.

I don't see why you have to over complicate such a simple fuel pump setup requirement. If you really want to get a bit more out of a simple twin pump setup, run a Kenne-bell boost-a-pump setup on it to jack the pump voltages and increase its capacity.


And this is coming from the fool running quad Walbro pumps with 8 injectors. 1/2 of my fuel system on my small primaries (1350cc) was enough to safely handle over 800AWHP on race gas.

Oh wasn't actually thinking of rocking the mechanical setup as I did the math, only part of it, and it wasn't my "strong suit." My question was: if I were to run a fuel pump setup, such as the one you said, on smaller injectors would it hurt the smaller injectors, my apologies for not wording that correctly.

Example: the setup you described on injectors that can sustain 500 WHP, would it over flood the injectors?

From what I was told, if your injectors are too big they'll cause rough idling, but obviously if I go too small then it'll cause detonation. Am I correct on my research? I, again, just wanted to know if I could run smaller injectors on a larger fuel/pump system.

 

[twicks69]

No, if you ran a 1350cc FIC BlueMAX injector with twin pumps, it won't have issues at lower horsepower ranges. It would have issues when you try to pass 850AWHP on race gas.

What are you using for tuning? That is the more important question regarding the control of your injectors and their streetability. With AEM, I had no issues controlling FIC Bluemax 1350cc or 1650cc injectors as primary injectors. Bosch 1600's were finicky at low duty cycles (at idle for control and stability) and I know the upper limits of the injector has stability issues as well; it is simply the design of this specific injector.

If you are using AEM EMS, DSMLink V3, Autronix, Haltech, MoTeC, etc. you should have no problems tuning.

Oh wasn't actually thinking of rocking the mechanical setup as I did the math, only part of it, and it wasn't my "strong suit." My question was: if I were to run a fuel pump setup, such as the one you said, on smaller injectors would it hurt the smaller injectors, my apologies for not wording that correctly.

Example: the setup you described on injectors that can sustain 500 WHP, would it over flood the injectors?

From what I was told, if your injectors are too big they'll cause rough idling, but obviously if I go too small then it'll cause detonation. Am I correct on my research? I, again, just wanted to know if I could run smaller injectors on a larger fuel/pump system.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

The full-blown pump hanger is a waste of money and a complete restriction in its design.

SERIOUSLY!??!

MAP told me that this setup supports up to 900 AWHP.

 

[Moonlight GSX]

No, if you ran a 1350cc FIC BlueMAX injector with twin pumps, it won't have issues at lower horsepower ranges. It would have issues when you try to pass 850AWHP on race gas.

What are you using for tuning? That is the more important question regarding the control of your injectors and their streetability. With AEM, I had no issues controlling FIC Bluemax 1350cc or 1650cc injectors as primary injectors. Bosch 1600's were finicky at low duty cycles (at idle for control and stability) and I know the upper limits of the injector has stability issues as well; it is simply the design of this specific injector.

If you are using AEM EMS, DSMLink V3, Autronix, Haltech, MoTeC, etc. you should have no problems tuning.

If I stick with the BlueMax injectors, be it 1350cc or whatever, I shouldn't have any problems when tuning up to the goal (800whp). I guess as long as I don't exceed 850 then I'm good to go. I guess if I ever decide to hit that 800+ goal I'll switch over to race gas but until then what would pump gas get me for [max] WHP? Just curious, if I fall short of 800 and get over 600-700 then I'll be content with my achievements.

 

[twicks69]

SERIOUSLY!??!

MAP told me that this setup supports up to 900 AWHP.

Just because the fuel pumps can capacitate it, doesn't mean that the flow design of the pickup assembly is ideal.

I had my pickup assembly made with seperate feed lines out of the pickup assembly, and a plug between the normal pathway of the two fuel pumps. The design was so poor that the second fuel pump (the driver-side pump) outlet passageway was being overlapped by the fuel outlet fitting causing substantial flow restriction. Even if you ran it with a single outlet feed, there is a neck-down inside the pickup assembly outlet in between each fuel pump.

Overall, it isn't too useful of a product; especially for the money, and the time to put further modifications into it to make it actually flow the potential of the fuel pumps.

 

[twicks69]

If I stick with the BlueMax injectors, be it 1350cc or whatever, I shouldn't have any problems when tuning up to the goal (800whp). I guess as long as I don't exceed 850 then I'm good to go. I guess if I ever decide to hit that 800+ goal I'll switch over to race gas but until then what would pump gas get me for [max] WHP? Just curious, if I fall short of 800 and get over 600-700 then I'll be content with my achievements.

I don't even know what turbo and engine setup you are running.

What octane is your "pump gas" in your country? The power level obtainable is going to be based on numerous variables including your engine compression, efficiency, displacement, turbo setup, etc. It becomes bench racing generally.

In my experiences, I made safe tunes on my car up to 650AWHP on two different setups on 93-octane gas.

Setup #1 - 2004-2007
2.3L 7-bolt Eagle/Ross 9.0:1 combo
GT4088R with 0.95A/R divided T4 housing
1000cc injectors with walbro in-tank 255HP and walbro in-line 255HP on single -6AN feed.
=614AWHP/488TQ on 29psi with 6 degrees of timing @ 30psi peak ranging to 10 degrees by redline on 93-octane. Safe tune, mid-11's AFR's.
=766AWHP/713TQ on 44psi with VP Import and around 8 degrees of timing ranging to 10 degrees by redline. Safe tune, high-11's/low-12's AFR's. (this dyno graph is not showing as it was after switching cylinder heads, and valvetrain, and cams.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bol...-performance-sheet-metal-intake-manifold.html

Setup #2 - 2008-current
2.3L 7-bolt Groden/CP low compression combo
BW S400SX3 74mm with 1.1A/R divided T4 housing and race cover
1350cc injectors with walbro in-tank 255HP and walbro in-line 255HP on single -6AN feed. (primary fuel setup)
=640AWHP/500 or so TQ (I cannot remember off the top of my head) on 30psi with 6 degrees of timing @ 30psi peak ranging to 10 degrees by redline on 93-octane. Safe tune, mid-11's AFR's.
=835AWHP/597TQ on 46psi with VP Q16 and around 8 degrees of timing ranging to 10 degrees by redline. Very safe tune, high-11's/low-12's AFR's.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/407235-dynoed-74mm-new-best-835awhp-46psi.html

Personally, I don't see you making more than 650-700AWHP on 93-octane unless you are very good at tuning and have a well designed setup. If you are on higher octane fuel than 93, you will have better luck.

Personally, I would focus on maximum powerband rather than a peak HP number. The GT4088R powerband was absolutely awesome with the 2.3L. It was normally ~3700rpm-8600rpm for 30psi, and around 4000-4200rpm for 42-49psi spoolup in 3rd gear. It was enough to do rolling 3rd gear burnouts to redline WITH slicks on the car when driving on the street. It was ALOT of fun. When the tune was designed with fast spoolup turned on (retarded ignition timing prior to spoolup throughout the 2000-4500rpm range resulting in a faster spool rampup of), I was seeing around 600-700rpm faster spoolup.

The current setup has a short powerband made for peak horsepower rather than maximum powerband. The downside is it takes away ALOT of streetability and street fun.

You have a better chance making a great powerband on a more realistic turbo like a Garrett GT3586R HTA, a Garrett GT4088R, a PTE 6262 or 6265, or a Borg Warner SS362 or S366. You will produce more torque, and a longer powerband with any of these than you would with a larger turbo unless you are only looking for peak power.

 

[Moonlight GSX]

Very well put information, my plan was to run a 2.3L setup but with the change in the type of engine I wanted to run (originally a 2.0L) I figured I'd change my whole angle of what I wanted. With all this information I do believe that I'll be able to make some adequate decisions - and save myself some money in the process. Much appreciated.

As for the United Kingdom, I'm not 100% sure what is actually run here. On base they have a US-Std and a UK-Std which is 90/95 [respectively], but off base they seem to range as a low of 93 and the other being 95. I know back in Missouri we had one pump that was off I-70 that had 110 octane in it, but it was "hidden" in the last row of the truckers' pumps, it was a bit expensive but you get what you paid for.

I'll have to look into the those turbos you listed though, I'm looking more for a greater powerband rather than peak [as you stated]. Basically, this will be my weekend-warrior, something I can take out and have some fun in but also take to the track to really open her up.

Edit:
One question, I was looking around the forums and stumbled upon threads mentioning the GT3794R, would this be a more streetable than that of the GT4088R? This would be on a 2.3L of course.

 

[twicks69]

Very well put information, my plan was to run a 2.3L setup but with the change in the type of engine I wanted to run (originally a 2.0L) I figured I'd change my whole angle of what I wanted. With all this information I do believe that I'll be able to make some adequate decisions - and save myself some money in the process. Much appreciated.

As for the United Kingdom, I'm not 100% sure what is actually run here. On base they have a US-Std and a UK-Std which is 90/95 [respectively], but off base they seem to range as a low of 93 and the other being 95. I know back in Missouri we had one pump that was off I-70 that had 110 octane in it, but it was "hidden" in the last row of the truckers' pumps, it was a bit expensive but you get what you paid for.

I'll have to look into the those turbos you listed though, I'm looking more for a greater powerband rather than peak [as you stated]. Basically, this will be my weekend-warrior, something I can take out and have some fun in but also take to the track to really open her up.

Edit:
One question, I was looking around the forums and stumbled upon threads mentioning the GT3794R, would this be a more streetable than that of the GT4088R? This would be on a 2.3L of course.

Regarding the GT3794R, it is going to have slightly higher rpm spoolup than the GT4088R mainly due to the difference between the 63mm inducer on the GT4088R vs. the 67mm inducer on the GT3794R. The footprint of the GT3794R is slightly smaller than the GT40R stuff. If you are intending on running a T3 flanged setup, I would look at the Garrett GT3586R for maximum powerband while having substantial peak power capabilities. If you are going to run a divided T4 flange, go with the Garrett GT4088R on a 0.95A/R divided T4 setup if you are looking for peak power with it (greater than 750AWHP) whereas if you are going to run it on a 2.0L for peak power or a 2.3L for maximum powerband and a limiting factor of staying below 750AWHP, go with the 0.86A/R divided T4 housing.

Either way, on a 2.3L, I would go with a 9.0:1 motor for your fuels available and run around 22-24psi with a safe tune on 95-octane gas. If you go with custom low compression pistons (i.e. 8.0:1) you will be able to run more boost before detonation on the same fuel. For every full point of compression, expect a change of spoolup of around 400rpm, and the change of efficiency of 4%-5%.

So, for example, if you are running a 9:1 2.3L motor with a GT4088R on pump gas at 23psi and are seeing full boost in 3rd gear at 4000rpm, and making around 500AWHP/450TQ and you changed only the motor compression ratio to 8.0:1, you would see the ability to run up to around 30psi of boost with a safe tune on 93-95 octane gas. Expect 23psi to be around 4400rpm in 3rd gear and making around 475AWHP/425TQ, and 30psi to be around 4600-4700rpm in 3rd gear and producing around 590AWHP/475TQ.

These are simply bench racing numbers only to show how much a compression drop (reducing approximate Volumetric Efficiency - VE - by ~5%) can play in the role of allowing substantially more boost to be run on low octane gas (93-95 octane) safely at the cost of slightly slower overall spoolup but the ability to produce around 18% more horsepower and 5-10% more torque than the 1 point higher compression motor that is boost limited on pump gas.

If you had access to substantially better race fuel, E85, E98, methanol, etc. then I would run a higher compression ratio to maximize efficiency of the motor if boost is not the limitation in the setup due to fuel choices.

 

[Moonlight GSX]

The full-blown pump hanger is a waste of money and a complete restriction in its design. If you are going to purchase one, I strongly recommend doing major modifications to it so it can actually flow fuel. The side ports are a complete bottleneck in design as the internal passageway is short and a sharp angle. I machined mine to have two seperate ports on the top so that each fuel pump has a straight shot flowing the fuel then through a 3/8" NPT to -6AN straight adapter fitting, then to a 90-degree -6AN tube fitting on stainless braided hose.

Personally, instead of spending several hundred dollars on a pump hanger that is completely flawed in its design, simply run an in-line walbro 255HP fuel pump (GSL392) - Walbro Inline Fuel Pumps - with M10x1.0 to -6AN male-to-male adaptor fittings with crush washers and -6AN fuel line.

Keep the fuel pumps on the same feed line, and replace the in-tank fuel pump with a fresh one or at least a fresh pickup filter, and hardwire both pumps. Use a Signalstat 192 relay with 8-gauge from battery to relay, and 10-gauge power/grounds for pumps and connection to chassis ground would be ideal with an 8-gauge wire. Use your stock ignition switch signal wire or MPI signal wire (same wire overall) as the trigger for the relay. Use a 60A in-line fuse assembly off the battery to the fuel pumps and 30A in-line fuses per fuel pump power wire after the relay.

This, along with a set of FIC Bluemax 1350cc or larger injectors with battery voltages above 13V and a base fuel pressure of 43psi will be enough to capacitate 800+AWHP with around 85% duty cycles. I was at 88% DTC at 835AWHP on VP Q16 race fuel with low-11 AFR's. I wouldn't run this setup past 635AWHP on E85 though due to maxing out the injectors before the fuel pumps.

As for pump gas, it depends on your setup, compression, tune and turbo. I run mine to a safe 650awhp on 3-5 degrees of timing on 93- OCTANE with 30psi on a low compression stroker motor with low/mid 11's for AFR'S. Shooting for 800awhp on pump gas, you better be a big block turbo v8 with a good intercooler to hit those kind of numbers with a usable powerband. Hitting 800awhp on pump gas in a DSM would likely be a very short powerband on a very large turbo, or a feat that few if any have attempted. I prefer VP Q16 and VP Import for high boost, and have been dabbling with E85 for 45psi and lower.

JEGS Performance Products 10566 JEGS Fuel Pump Harness and Relay Kit

Would you say this would be acceptable to re-wiring my stock and adding the in-line fuel pump?

 

[twicks69]

Yup, that looks like it would work fine for you.