500-600 horsepower build

[eagleturbo]

Hello everyone I planned on building my 95 awd talon after I spun the number 4 rod bearing.My goal is to see 500-600 hp on 93 octane, the turbo I would like to use to see that goal, would be the hx35 or the hx40 a long with the turbo manifold in the link would be a good manifold to use.EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts

 

[StarFawkes]

ERL Performance Cast Exhaust Manifold for DSM (T3 / T4 / Mitsubishi Turbochargers) - Modern Automotive Performance This will be so much better than the DNP. Even though the DNP is tubular it is still flanged for a DSM style turbo, which will be very restrictive if you're gunning for 500+ whp. Ask me how I know.

 

[eagleturbo]

you must have tried,but that ERL manifold would be better, and as far as turbo the hx35 spools faster but the hx40 makes more power.

 

[dsmcurse]

no offense, but both those mannifolds suck. "ask me how I know?"
5-600whp club, ive broke the 500awhp barrier then broke the 600 mark too. from first hand experience, DO NOT GET A SET UP THATS MITSUBISHI FLANGE IN AND MITSUBISHI FLANGE OUT!!!! that cast one would hold in so much back pressure and hottness aginst the cylinder head, and the turbo "header" pictured is probably just fine in design but it fails in quality of material used and the fact that its little baby tiny stock mitsu flange manni...

what you need is, HOLSET HX40 6blade, 60mm and buy the BEP 70ar turbine housing. Done. Period. the mitsu footprint goin into turbo is weak sauce in flow, you need a T3 footprint. and dumb stupid mitsubishi 5-bolt flange out??? uh, back to the future baby, its called V-band. T3 in and 3"vband out kinda turbo set up is gonna work best for you. trust me.

get a turbo header thats made of good quality material, needs to be a T3 flange, at the "merge collector" or some times called "reverse plenum" of the mannifold right befor the mannifolds flange, you need it to have the wastegate feeder tube right there. dont use external wastegate set up thats after mannifold, turbine housing based. theres to much chaoss and turbulence and gnarly shit happening to bleed off exhaust pressure so close to the "paddles" of the turbine wheel. HAVE EXTERNAL WASTEGATE OFF OF MANNIFOLD PRE-TURBO.

another awesome trick that will be OH-SO-COST-EFFECTIVE and totally worth the effort spent, is getting a 80 dollar e-bay brand cheapy external wastegate thats 60mm in and 60mm out. boom, for 80 bucks you can mount that sucker after-turbo in your 3"vband down pipe and now have a boost-activated exhaust cut-out. easily rigged to be NO EXHAUST LEAK UNDER 16PSI BOOST, and once boost rolls past that you magically get a throttle-body sized hole in the exhaust system releiving pressure off of the turbine wheel. THIS TRICK WILL NET YOU SERIOUS GAINS.

so, wanna join the 500whp club? listen to my advice. stay away from mitsu flange turbo stuff. its to small for the job. sure it can be done. but the engine works harder, and why have a high-strung engine full of super duper hot back pressure constantly bottled up in the cylinder head right behind a baby lil cast manni? go nice flow turbo header, T3 footprint, "honda style" downpipe (which means no O2 sensor housing) and a NICE FLOW intake manni.

but intake manni is for another discussion...

 

[c2ypt1c]

Even though the DNP is tubular it is still flanged for a DSM style turbo, which will be very restrictive if you're gunning for 500+ whp. Ask me how I know.

so, wanna join the 500whp club? listen to my advice. stay away from mitsu flange turbo stuff.

Woah...not so fast. I'm slightly offended
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/vendor-announcements/456500-fp-turbine-housing-holsets.html

 

[dsmcurse]

dude, my best friend BOOSTDRIVEN just recently got kicked out for even mentioning FP, dont get me started on that noise. I gotta watch what i say, mitsu footprint is to small, period. lets keep it at that ok

trust me, T3 or T4 footprint with a no none sense 3" Vband downpipe.

notice the big tubes of the turbo header? its good quality material, the best place to buy stainless and good material is from Vibrant. they sell awesome stuff, have a reputable fab guy create you a nice header, it should come together and form a plenum feeding into the T3 or T4 flange, at this plenum, you have the EGT sensor probe and the EMAP sensor tube, also have a wastegate feeder tube goin to a nice 50mm external gate that has a straight down dump tube. blow the fire at the ground, dont waste your time recycling it back into downpipe

 

[c2ypt1c]

Here's some good info, if you want to read up.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/334299-holset-hx40-makes-685hp-584tq-3.html#post153122230

I'm not sure if the same applies to the .68 and .70 a/r, but according to Justin, with all things being equal, the difference is negligable between mitsu and t3, in terms of flow...take it for what it's worth.

 

[dsmcurse]

i dont care what "justin" says, in the REAL world mitsu flange is a disadvantage to a T4 footprint. compare the two side by side, take into consideration further port and magic carefully done to each with a skilled hand and a nice die grinder, the t3/t4 will out flow a mitsu flange bassed housing ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. i dont care if one guy made that much power on a set up like that.

what he doesnt tell you and what you dont know, is that his back pressure was higher than his boost pressure. crazy high drive pressure and stored up hottnes and high EGT's im sure. dont get me wrong, im EXTREAMLEY impressed. i wouldnt be surprised to here it was done on 2.5" intercooler piping too right? all im saying is, think how much better those results for that guy woulda been if he had used a size up in diameter. think about it.

oh excuse me, i just clicked that link, went to the OP on the first page, saw the dyno graph and RIGHT AWAY KNEW IT WASNT A MITSU FLANGE TURBO! so i click his public profile, not much listed in his mod sheet, click his photos, that guy made that power WITH THE EXACT SET UP I JUST EXPLAINED!!!!!!!!

notice the similarities in his engine photo and mine? WE BOTH HAVE SAME SET UP!

T3 footprint in, 3" Vband out, nice header with pre-turbo wastegate, 3"intercooler piping. SAME SAME SAME SAME!

were both sittin in the 600hp club, and neither use a mitsu footprint... hmm... strange...

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Holy cow.. I had something typed up, but this is going to turn into a sh*t show because some people can't handle a discussion like adults before the typos, attacks and capslock comes out.

There's more than just mentioning FP that got the guy a vacation, I can tell you that.

There's more than one route to making power. The MHI Flange is one way.

It has its challenges, but if you want response you'll be hard pressed to beat it in a larger footprint unless your setup is on the money.

 

[ceedawg]

T4 all day every day for me for 550+ awhp!!!

 

[dsmcurse]

thats okay homeboy, im not a keybord cowboy or give 2 shits to really care about perfect spelling and shit, who cares, can you all read what Im sayin? ya. who cares, and all im sayin show me a 600awhp machine with a mitsu-in mitsi-out turbo? I wanna see. Landspeed, I know what you use, and it aint a mitsu footprint...

look at his photo, look at mine, Landspeed, please post yours too because its gonna look like mine!

THERES NO MITSU FLANGE AND NO CAST MANNI

these machines live and breath every day on the streets, this it what works. period.

OP, if you wanna get high street horse power, follow the recipe given, the other ingriedients suck. trust me ive tried 'em

ceedawg, please post your engine pic, i bet it looks like mine

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I've had more than one setup.. and more than one DSM for that matter. This was my beater DD laser, cammed, 59mm Borg started in the BEP DSM housing, eventually moved to T4.

38psi and 65lbs/min. Spooled like a 20G. Acceleration vs. weight backed up the air flow figures.

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Again, challenges and advantages to both. Don't just dismiss one out of hand. And you know based on previous conversation I'm one to recommend a bigger hotside. But not universally.

 

[Mickey6]

Hello everyone I planned on building my 95 awd talon after I spun the number 4 rod bearing.My goal is to see 500-600 hp on 93 octane, the turbo I would like to use to see that goal, would be the hx35 or the hx40 a long with the turbo manifold in the link would be a good manifold to use.EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts

Redjack Racing has some very quality work for a bit more than the price you have linked. Biggest thing when building like that. Take your time, do your research on parts and the build, and you will get what you want out of it. Utilize the resources on here as well (infinite amount). I'm almost done with a full hx40 setup, so if you have any questions feel free to shoot a PM my way. I'm looking forward to see your end product .

 

[dsmcurse]

Well, that's. A nice "old" picture, I got plenty of old pictures too. And just like the picture you provided, my old pictures aren't 5 or 6 hundred horse either. I bought the evo3 16g, had turbonetics, a PTE 60trim, I was stuck on using a evo3 exhaust manni and a "sport" turbo (means direct bolt up) but then later as I got better, so did my set-up, and just like you Landspeed,I relized a cast manni and a direct bolt up turbo ain't cuttin it.

Thanks for your picture, kinda proves my point.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

If you say so..

 

[JusMX141]

dude, my best friend BOOSTDRIVEN just recently got kicked out for even mentioning FP, dont get me started on that noise.

A bit confused, are we?

Your best friend earned a vacation for repeatedly ignoring the rules of the site including constantly initiating flame wars similar to what you're doing in this thread, trolling guys so f*cking hard that if he were fishing he wouldn't even need an motor for the boat, and last but not least...repeatedly slandering FP in their own Vendor Announcement threads- all of which he had been warned about over and over and over again by myself and other members of the staff leading up to the suspension.

thats okay homeboy, im not a keybord cowboy or give 2 shits to really care about perfect spelling and shit, who cares, can you all read what Im sayin? ya. who cares,

I do, homeskillet. Continue to give no regard to the rules of our site and you'll be joining your friend quite soon.

and all im sayin show me a 600awhp machine with a mitsu-in mitsi-out turbo? I wanna see.

Gladly. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wB8NtTwMj0&feature=player_embedded]V8 Hunter awd 4 cylinder 10.5@136 street in car also 3600lbs '99 GSX - YouTube[/ame]

FP DSM Red....60-1 compressor, TD06H4 turbine, ported 8cm turbine housing. No smoke, no mirrors. I know this because I have the turbo from this car at my shop as we speak- it was sent my way to be refreshed prior to being sold as the car's current owner has now upgraded to a FP DSM Black....yet another turbo with a DSM inlet and outlet.

Pay close attention to the inlet and outlet of the Red's turbine housing:

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[JusMX141]

Hello everyone I planned on building my 95 awd talon after I spun the number 4 rod bearing.My goal is to see 500-600 hp on 93 octane, the turbo I would like to use to see that goal, would be the hx35 or the hx40 a long with the turbo manifold in the link would be a good manifold to use.EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts

Neither- go for the Holset HY35 and a cast Turbonetics T3 manifold...proven to 562whp on pump gas.

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[eagleturbo]

I'm sorry if I cause any problems asking about the turbos and turbo manifold,I'm don't want any one to get mad over my post. JusMX141 if you don't mind me asking why do you say the hy35 over the other hx turbos.Also I've been told from some that I can use the stock turbo manifold with a nice port job, a long with the BEP housing. that I would see my goal.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

So to continue. lets recognize that "500-600" is a vast spectrum of power and ways to make it. You want to use pump, and stick to a stock footprint. Let's aim for 500whp first, otherwise you are going to be looking at some seriously large turbos, and I doubt you are interested in the amount of money required to support them adequately, let alone take advantage of one.

I'm sorry if I cause any problems asking about the turbos and turbo manifold,I'm don't want any one to get mad over my post. JusMX141 if you don't mind me asking why do you say the hy35 over the other hx turbos.Also I've been told from some that I can use the stock turbo manifold with a nice port job, a long with the BEP housing. that I would see my goal.

The HY35 has a blend of characteristics that just work on these motors with pump gas that few other combinations display. Extremely efficient and complimentary. It's about the smallest turbo that will get you there for the easiest cost of entry.

If you don't want to go to the T3 footprint just yet, there are plenty of offerings from FP or that are available in BEP housings that can cater to your goals. A ported 2G exhaust manifold or an FP manifold would not be a bad idea though, with that said.

I was able to max out a 650+ whp compressor with a 2G manifold and a BEP bolt-on housing. That is the picture I posted up thread. It was crude, simple and effective.

When I switched to larger housings available for that same turbo (T3 and later on T4) I picked up ~2lbs/min peak flow, but it changed the power-band considerably.

You are going to want a big downpipe.. minimum 3.5" as soon as possible of the back of the turbo, and a dumped O2 housing. I recommend either having one made to work with something like a TiAl MV-R and a concentric reducer that flares out from the turbine discharge to a 3.5" ID V-band.

The dividends this will pay for the initial premium will be worth it in multiple fronts.

For your purposes, 500whp on pump gas.. look at an HX40, S200sx-59 or FP Red. A healthy intercooler, well matched cam, clean tune and possibly some water injection will come in handy.

dsmcurse going on vacation in 3.... 2.... 1.... ding ding ding.......

Your time is almost up!

I said it like a month ago.. those two just rub people the wrong way and have this absolutist position on everything they say. It's absurd.

Somehow for them, the plural of "anecdote" is "data"

 

[boost97gst]

Just to clarify, your looking for near 600 on 93 octane. No matter what mani, you are planning meth injection right? This is an interesting debate and i read a bit of that link posted up top. I gotta hit the dyno in a couple weeks.........
Btw, DSMCURSE is on FIRE , chill dude. Dont get banned. Its all good

 

[thecman02]

I just got done doing a dsm flange to t4 twin scroll upgrade. I picked up around 5-6lb/min over a .55 bep bolt on housing. This is with a S200-59 with the 74/64 turbine. The even crazier result is in my application I didn't even increase lag or raise boost threshold. I like the fact that I can run ~5psi less to match my old setup for flow. To be fair my bolt on housing setup wasn't the most ideal, but it gives you an idea roughly of the kind of gains you can make.

Some numbers:
.55ar BEP ~ 52lb/min @ 30psi
1.00 Twin Scroll ~54lb/min @ 26psi <---- I have 19psi wastegate springs, but I can't get the boost any lower. I think I might have a pretty favorable back pressure/boost ratio.

I've seen 60lb/min @ 40psi on bolt on and 60lb/min @ roughly 33psi on the twin scroll housing.

Both housings I had some surge issues if I really tried to tune the car for quickest spool with heavy loading.

 

[c2ypt1c]

I just got done doing a dsm flange to t4 twin scroll upgrade. I picked up around 5-6lb/min over a .55 bep bolt on housing.

This is not a fair comparison. .55 to 1.00 a/r, not to mention mitsu to t4 twin scroll. Apples to oranges.

I want to know about .68 to .70 a/r, mitsu to t3! My gut tells me it'll be something like 1lb/min, with some (if not all) gains coming from a better flowing exhaust mani/02 housing/downpipe/slight difference in a/r. It'll be a while before I can test the limits of my .68 a/r mitsu-flanged setup. I'm really hoping someone else can jump on board and generate some meaningful data.

 

[JusMX141]

JusMX141 if you don't mind me asking why do you say the hy35 over the other hx turbos.

A few reasons:

• It's already made power within the realm of what you're seeking on pump gas by everyday users...not shop-sponsored cars.
  
  
• If you look hard enough you can find one in good used condition for $200-$250, putting the cost of the entire turbo less than a new Bullseye turbine housing for a HX35/HX40.
  
  
• It uses a T3-flanged turbine housing, getting you away from the DSM-flanged turbine housings which some insist are the offspring of Lucifer himself.

If you can find a deal on a T3 manifold and external gate, once you get the HY35 then all you'd need to do is fab an o2 housing and you're set.

im not a "parts counter pro" for my carrer, im a mechanic

I would KILL to read your résumé.

 

[eagleturbo]

I was not planed on running meth injection. But LandSpeed-DSM I would like to keep a stock look for now,so would the ported 2g manifold with the hy35 turbo be better with the mods I plan on doing. and will it all work well with my Punishment racing fmic kit, and I also have 3in megan racing down pipe with 3in exhaust with no cat. but if I need to really change turbo manifold I can.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I just got done doing a dsm flange to t4 twin scroll upgrade. I picked up around 5-6lb/min over a .55 bep bolt on housing. This is with a S200-59 with the 74/64 turbine. The even crazier result is in my application I didn't even increase lag or raise boost threshold. I like the fact that I can run ~5psi less to match my old setup for flow. To be fair my bolt on housing setup wasn't the most ideal, but it gives you an idea roughly of the kind of gains you can make.

Some numbers:
.55ar BEP ~ 52lb/min @ 30psi
1.00 Twin Scroll ~54lb/min @ 26psi <---- I have 19psi wastegate springs, but I can't get the boost any lower. I think I might have a pretty favorable back pressure/boost ratio.

I've seen 60lb/min @ 40psi on bolt on and 60lb/min @ roughly 33psi on the twin scroll housing.

Both housings I had some surge issues if I really tried to tune the car for quickest spool with heavy loading.

There are a lot of similarities between our results. Same turbine wheel too. As I did the same thing back in ~2010. If I were to recommend that turbo.. it would be either as a bolt on or in a T4 1.xx housing. None of the in between options.

Where is power falling off for you? The T4 housing pulled hard through 9k on my setup. Occasionally found myself bouncing off a 9250 limiter

But the price to run the Divided T4 is much steeper. I already had stuff on hand from my old 40R setup.

This is not a fair comparison. .55 to 1.00 a/r, not to mention mitsu to t4 twin scroll. Apples to oranges.

I want to know about .68 to .70 a/r, mitsu to t3! My gut tells me it'll be something like 1lb/min, with some (if not all) gains coming from a better flowing exhaust mani/02 housing/downpipe/slight difference in a/r. It'll be a while before I can test the limits of my .68 a/r mitsu-flanged setup. I'm really hoping someone else can jump on board and generate some meaningful data.

I've run the 59mm ETT S200sx in .55 MHI, Open T3 .70, Divided T3 and Divided T4.

As mentioned earlier.. I would recommend either bolt on.. or straight to the T4 housing. As thecman02 pointed out there was no discernable spool penalty. Picked up power and wider powerband.

But the determination is going to be made by 1.) usage and 2.) budget

Not everyone wants or can afford to run a setup that winds to 9k+ @ 35psi boost or greater.

I was not planed on running meth injection. But LandSpeed-DSM I would like to keep a stock look for now,so would the ported 2g manifold with the hy35 turbo be better with the mods I plan on doing. and will it all work well with my Punishment racing fmic kit, and I also have 3in megan racing down pipe with 3in exhaust with no cat. but if I need to really change turbo manifold I can.

Well, the HY35 is only available in an open T3.. I may still have a manifold on hand set for a 2-bolt flange 38mm gate.

I don't have any experience with the punishment FMIC, so I cannot really comment.. for pump gas purposes water wouldn't hurt. A progressive controller that only sprays above a certain boost level will stretch the time between refills.