4G63 vs 420A

[Galland]

I've been reading up on dsm's and eclipse's lately before I get mine. I want either a GS or RS because they are cheaper and cheaper insureance. But I know they are slower and even if I would get a GSX or GST I would still replace more of the turbo system and other parts.

I've got several buddies that just got some sweet rides and are expecting to have they're cars up to 400hp or more and I would love to compete with em... My main question is, what is the side by side difference between the 420 and 4G??? From the engine, trans, and anything else.

Also, I noticed that the 420A has higher compression then the 4G63. Someone said that it would be good to lower the compression in the 420A if I was to throw a turbo on there and compete with it. Why is this?? I thought higher compression= more hp??

Thanks much.. and plz. don't start a flamewar...

 

[Turbonium]

yea i know i'm not even sure why the SOHc was brought up like i said it's not applicable to this thread really. but seriously just get the gsx an be done w/ all the rest of them, idk, good luck makin your choice
Ryan

 

[Turbonium]

yea i know i'm not even sure why the SOHc was brought up like i said it's not applicable to this thread really. but seriously just get the gsx an be done w/ all the rest of them, idk, good luck makin your choice
Ryan

 

[DieharD]

Originally posted by Hooah


ok...look...rs, gs, gst, and gsx all come with dohc
syper comes with sohc

non turbo = 140 hp and basically max'es at 250-280
gst gsx = 210 hp ive seen it max at 611 (on the bottle and massive turbo)

the sohc doesnt add any more hp than the n/a...they are both at 140

A non-turbo spyder comes with a different engine. It's a 2.4 liter 4 banger called 4G64. Dodge Neon comes with a SOHC 420a but Eclipse RS/GS come with DOHC 420a

 

[Hooah]

i know dis

 

[WhipmastaFlex]

Originally posted by Hooah
i know dis

now is that supposed to be "I know this" or "I noticed"

 

[MrPikolo]

3000gt twin turbo or a ls1 would have you all set.

 

[Hooah]

Originally posted by WhipmastaFlex


now is that supposed to be "I know this" or "I noticed"

its ebonics....i know this

 

[WhipmastaFlex]

Originally posted by Hooah


its ebonics....i know this

werd

aiight, we be str8 dawg

 

[Hooah]

aight den

 

[ChicagoGSX]

4G63 = Proven motor, ready to be boosted from the factory

420A = Naturally Aspirated motor which requires thousands of dollars more to reach 4G63 power levels

Argue all you want, but dollar for dollar, you will run faster times in a 4G63 powered DSM not counting the cost of the car. Even so you could just get a 1g and run 11s for the cost of some NT 2gs.

 

[Eclipse IF]

Ok I know it's different with every person and depends on the company but when I got my GS-T I only saw a 40 dollar a month increase over my Chevy Sedan and I'm guessing insurence on a GS or RS would be about the same.

As WhipmastaFlex said it took his friend 6 grand and he STILL isn't as fast as a GS-T so lets just say you save 50 bucks a month on insurence driving a GS. It would take you about 10 years before you've saved that much money on insurence.

To me it's a no brainer buy a GS-T or GSX and pay for the extra insurence.

 

[WhipmastaFlex]

Originally posted by Eclipse IF
Ok I know it's different with every person and depends on the company but when I got my GS-T I only saw a 40 dollar a month increase over my Chevy Sedan and I'm guessing insurence on a GS or RS would be about the same.

As WhipmastaFlex said it took his friend 6 grand and he STILL isn't as fast as a GS-T so lets just say you save 50 bucks a month on insurence driving a GS. It would take you about 10 years before you've saved that much money on insurence.

To me it's a no brainer buy a GS-T or GSX and pay for the extra insurence.

my GS-T Spyder only increased my insurance by $12/month over my 93 integra GS

btw, i said this kid, not my friend... i am not friends with people who think turbo'd 420a's are faster than 4g63's, just to clear that up

 

[Eclipse IF]

Originally posted by WhipmastaFlex


my GS-T Spyder only increased my insurance by $12/month over my 93 integra GS

btw, i said this kid, not my friend... i am not friends with people who think turbo'd 420a's are faster than 4g63's, just to clear that up

my bad

 

[optimuspeterson]

to the person that said the trannys are weaker on the nt is a moron. How many times do the turbos have to replace their trannys because a synchro has been damaged? The only reasone a nt tranny can suck is becuase the differential pin can shoot out the side of the tranny. So probably for every one nt tranny that goes down about 5-10 turbo trannys die. And gues what, chrysler found a way to fix their problem and its a 10 part. You have to have your tranny custom built for turbo's so it doesn't crap out on you.

the 420a is now where near being maxed out at 300hp. Armond put down over 400hp off the bottle. He maxed out his turbo, no where near maxing out the engine. He still has a 100 shot sitting in the back of his car waiting to be used some day.
http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?...ic_id=23437&mesg_id=23437&listing_type=search - - - Dyno charts for armonds

Um, i think thats it.

Oh, by adding a turbo dsm to my insurance it would have raised it about 65 a month. I'm 20, no tickets or accidents and i have good grade discount. Unless i've missed it, no one has thrown out the crankwalk card yet.

turbo's = crankwalk(search if you don't know what it is)
nt = bad HG

If you decide to rebuild the HG is easily taken care of. As far as i know there isn't a cure the the crankwalk besides a 6 bolt(not really an authority on the 4g63's).

suspension and brakes is the same on GS and GST. GSX's get the bigger breakes and different suspension due to AWD.

 

[switch]

ok now take all that money that armond spend on his 420 and and put into a 4g63 and lets see who gets better performance and better drivability.......of course the 4g63 would.......the 4g63 can handle more than 450HP on stock internals

 

[ChicagoGSX]

Originally posted by optimuspeterson
to the person that said the trannys are weaker on the nt is a moron. How many times do the turbos have to replace their trannys because a synchro has been damaged? The only reasone a nt tranny can suck is becuase the differential pin can shoot out the side of the tranny. So probably for every one nt tranny that goes down about 5-10 turbo trannys die. And gues what, chrysler found a way to fix their problem and its a 10 part. You have to have your tranny custom built for turbo's so it doesn't crap out on you.

the 420a is now where near being maxed out at 300hp. Armond put down over 400hp off the bottle. He maxed out his turbo, no where near maxing out the engine. He still has a 100 shot sitting in the back of his car waiting to be used some day.
http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?...ic_id=23437&mesg_id=23437&listing_type=search - - - Dyno charts for armonds

Um, i think thats it.

Oh, by adding a turbo dsm to my insurance it would have raised it about 65 a month. I'm 20, no tickets or accidents and i have good grade discount. Unless i've missed it, no one has thrown out the crankwalk card yet.

turbo's = crankwalk(search if you don't know what it is)
nt = bad HG

If you decide to rebuild the HG is easily taken care of. As far as i know there isn't a cure the the crankwalk besides a 6 bolt(not really an authority on the 4g63's).

suspension and brakes is the same on GS and GST. GSX's get the bigger breakes and different suspension due to AWD.

Maybe there are fewer failed trannies because none of the NT's are making any power. Also they're FWD so its much easier on the tranny. Most of the turbo tranny problems are from the AWD guys because of how much more abuse they take on a launch. 400 fwhp? Whoope dee doo. There are more people making over 500 HP with a 4G63 then there are 300 hp 420As.

 

[daltah]

Lets not forget a rs is alot lighter than a gst and gsx.Also the more power you add to a 4G63 the more likely you are going to have your engine crackwalk.Also like someone mentioned before the price of a rs eclipse is already a alot cheaper than buying a gst or gsx so put that in to account for everyone saying it cost more to get high hp with a 420a.Your already saving a few thousand right their.So if you look at the overall picture their around the same price to get the same amount of hp out of both engines because everyone with a 4G63 ends up replacing everything anyways.

 

[Oreopride18]

Time for me to be a dick and have all the N/A 2g guys hate me.

Here is the brutal truth: DOHC Neon R/Ts KICK ASS. They dominate FWD autocrossing in their class. Why? Handling. the stock package of the car is amazing. Anywho, let's review a few things.

The 420A is an EXTREMELY capable motor. Hahn's drag Neon is running high 9's now and it's FWD to boot. It is, easily, one of the top 5 N/A 4 cylinder motors built and I'd be proud to have one. But....

if you MUST have a 420A then get the Neon; not a 2g N/A. With a 2g N/A you get the wose of both worlds. You have a heavier, much worse handling 420a vs the Dodge Neon since it's an Eclipse body. Same engine only you have 750 more pounds. That extra 8HP won't mean squat especially since the Neon will outhandle it easily. And if you get a 2g N/A Eclipse you will be slower than the 4g63 DSMs in general; which may be heavier but have a much easier to build on 4g63. Look at the featured car on the main page. 13.8 out of the N/A is quite impressive and I'm proud the guy went that distance on his car. But think about what if he used all that money on a 4g63? I've got 1k in mine so far and I'm easily in the low 13's.

Oh, and imagine if he had that built engine in a car that was 750 pounds lighter and could put the power to the road better.

If you are going to use "insurance! insurance!" as a reason not to get turbo then that is fine. But do yourself a favor now and get the Neon instead of the 2g Eclipse; performance wise you'll be a lot better off and it's the exact same engine. If you want a fast 2g then get a 4g63 turbo. AWD if you must.

I don't even know why people us insurance as an excuse. Theyll say "I don't want to pay another $25 a month for a turbo car!" then turn around and dump 3k into a 2900 pound FWD 420a.....

Oh, and the Neon RT will be A LOT cheaper on the insurance than a 2g so if insurance is the real reason you can't afford a certain car then GET THE NEON. It's not even worth looking up due to values of the car. Neon RT = $4k if you look hard where a 2g will be $6k easily.

I'm not "Hating on the tizight N/As dawg!" as people often say. Don't blame me that the truth hurts.

 

[DieharD]

Originally posted by ChicagoGSX


Maybe there are fewer failed trannies because none of the NT's are making any power. Also they're FWD so its much easier on the tranny. Most of the turbo tranny problems are from the AWD guys because of how much more abuse they take on a launch. 400 fwhp? Whoope dee doo. There are more people making over 500 HP with a 4G63 then there are 300 hp 420As.

I concur. You can have 400whp on a front wheel drive car, all you'll get loss of traction if you dump the clutch at 5k rpms. Now try putting those 400whp to 4 wheels all at once. A GS tranny would snap in a second. Turbo trannies are made to take serious abuse and perform fine if treated properly. There are ways to make it better, like have a rebuild done by www.teamrip.com but that's only if you're planning on running sick amounts of hp and treat it bad.

As for crankwalk, yes it's a known defect in a 4g63 but only on 2G Turbo Eclipses/Talons. According to a survey that was done over the years most crankwalks happen on 96-97 2Gs. Other years still happen but significantly less. There's a thread on this forum or dsmtalk that has all this info. 1Gs on the other hand virtually have no crankwalk issues and they're cheap and they have bigger stock turbos that can ripp low 14s with a few easy mods.

 

[DSMNightmare]

Oreopride: Wow, that was a very good rebuttle I'm impressed. The only thing is Lens Neon is becoming less and less of an actual neon every day. Still bada$$ for a FWD or AWD or anything for that matter.

 

[DSMNightmare]

Not to mention that crankwalk can happen to ANY car when you start adding HP.

Originally posted by DieharD


I concur. You can have 400whp on a front wheel drive car, all you'll get loss of traction if you dump the clutch at 5k rpms. Now try putting those 400whp to 4 wheels all at once. A GS tranny would snap in a second. Turbo trannies are made to take serious abuse and perform fine if treated properly. There are ways to make it better, like have a rebuild done by www.teamrip.com but that's only if you're planning on running sick amounts of hp and treat it bad.

As for crankwalk, yes it's a known defect in a 4g63 but only on 2G Turbo Eclipses/Talons. According to a survey that was done over the years most crankwalks happen on 96-97 2Gs. Other years still happen but significantly less. There's a thread on this forum or dsmtalk that has all this info. 1Gs on the other hand virtually have no crankwalk issues and they're cheap and they have bigger stock turbos that can ripp low 14s with a few easy mods.

 

[WhipmastaFlex]

Originally posted by daltah
Lets not forget a rs is alot lighter than a gst and gsx.Also the more power you add to a 4G63 the more likely you are going to have your engine crackwalk.Also like someone mentioned before the price of a rs eclipse is already a alot cheaper than buying a gst or gsx so put that in to account for everyone saying it cost more to get high hp with a 420a.Your already saving a few thousand right their.So if you look at the overall picture their around the same price to get the same amount of hp out of both engines because everyone with a 4G63 ends up replacing everything anyways.

do some research

crankwalk in no way is a result of an excessive amount of power, resulting in a walking crank. there is no "reason" for crankwalk. you can put 400hp in a 2g with 100K miles and be perfectly fine, or have a stock 2g walk after 35k miles. even 1g 6 bolts walk, though these are very rare occasions. you either have it, or you don't.

as for high horse power with all that saved money in your account with a 420a, you want 300+hp? better get some forged internals. how much is that gonna cost you? are you handy/knowledgable/brave enough to do the work yourself? can you in all honesty rebuild a motor in your garage/shed/bathroom? if not, internals + assembly is gonna suck all that saved money in your account right back out, whereas a 4g63 holds WELL over 300hp stock.

as for replacing stuff in the ultra reliable 4g63, you want to put on new parts not meant for the stock specified design, you're going to break sh*t. that is a forgone conclusion before you even start modding. you're not going to break much in a RS with CAI, exhaust and BOV simulator. you put a 20g with supporting mods in a 4g63, stevie wonder could see that sh*ts gonna go wrong, things will break, and parts will be replaced and or upgraded

this should be common sense, but for whatever reason, it is not. unless you have money that you don't know what to do with (in which case insurance/base price savings would not matter), you want to go fast, you get a 4g63. period.

 

[Hooah]

Originally posted by WhipmastaFlex


do some research

crankwalk in no way is a result of an excessive amount of power, resulting in a walking crank. there is no "reason" for crankwalk. you can put 400hp in a 2g with 100K miles and be perfectly fine, or have a stock 2g walk after 35k miles. even 1g 6 bolts walk, though these are very rare occasions. you either have it, or you don't.

as for high horse power with all that saved money in your account with a 420a, you want 300+hp? better get some forged internals. how much is that gonna cost you? are you handy/knowledgable/brave enough to do the work yourself? can you in all honesty rebuild a motor in your garage/shed/bathroom? if not, internals + assembly is gonna suck all that saved money in your account right back out, whereas a 4g63 holds WELL over 300hp stock.

as for replacing stuff in the ultra reliable 4g63, you want to put on new parts not meant for the stock specified design, you're going to break sh*t. that is a forgone conclusion before you even start modding. you're not going to break much in a RS with CAI, exhaust and BOV simulator. you put a 20g with supporting mods in a 4g63, stevie wonder could see that sh*ts gonna go wrong, things will break, and parts will be replaced and or upgraded

this should be common sense, but for whatever reason, it is not. unless you have money that you don't know what to do with (in which case insurance/base price savings would not matter), you want to go fast, you get a 4g63. period.

my thoughts exactly, so either get a neon, or 4g63.....if u have the money now get the eclipse, if not and want to mod it get a neon...i duno how badass neons can be...but they have the same motor, so i imagine pretty damn well

 

[DSMNightmare]

Right, but with the A/T in the rare cases where walk does happen it tends to show up after the car has been modded. Although I'll admit this could be pure coincidence.

 

[DSMNightmare]

BTW WhipmastaFlex: I like the way you are building up your setup. From the way your profile looks your building it up first and then going for the turbo. Am I right?