4G63 vs 420A

[Galland]

I've been reading up on dsm's and eclipse's lately before I get mine. I want either a GS or RS because they are cheaper and cheaper insureance. But I know they are slower and even if I would get a GSX or GST I would still replace more of the turbo system and other parts.

I've got several buddies that just got some sweet rides and are expecting to have they're cars up to 400hp or more and I would love to compete with em... My main question is, what is the side by side difference between the 420 and 4G??? From the engine, trans, and anything else.

Also, I noticed that the 420A has higher compression then the 4G63. Someone said that it would be good to lower the compression in the 420A if I was to throw a turbo on there and compete with it. Why is this?? I thought higher compression= more hp??

Thanks much.. and plz. don't start a flamewar...

 

[optimuspeterson]

Originally posted by Oreopride18
Time for me to be a dick and have all the N/A 2g guys hate me.

Here is the brutal truth: DOHC Neon R/Ts KICK ASS. They dominate FWD autocrossing in their class. Why? Handling. the stock package of the car is amazing. Anywho, let's review a few things.

The 420A is an EXTREMELY capable motor. Hahn's drag Neon is running high 9's now and it's FWD to boot. It is, easily, one of the top 5 N/A 4 cylinder motors built and I'd be proud to have one. But....

if you MUST have a 420A then get the Neon; not a 2g N/A. With a 2g N/A you get the wose of both worlds. You have a heavier, much worse handling 420a vs the Dodge Neon since it's an Eclipse body. Same engine only you have 750 more pounds. That extra 8HP won't mean squat especially since the Neon will outhandle it easily. And if you get a 2g N/A Eclipse you will be slower than the 4g63 DSMs in general; which may be heavier but have a much easier to build on 4g63. Look at the featured car on the main page. 13.8 out of the N/A is quite impressive and I'm proud the guy went that distance on his car. But think about what if he used all that money on a 4g63? I've got 1k in mine so far and I'm easily in the low 13's.

Oh, and imagine if he had that built engine in a car that was 750 pounds lighter and could put the power to the road better.

If you are going to use "insurance! insurance!" as a reason not to get turbo then that is fine. But do yourself a favor now and get the Neon instead of the 2g Eclipse; performance wise you'll be a lot better off and it's the exact same engine. If you want a fast 2g then get a 4g63 turbo. AWD if you must.

I don't even know why people us insurance as an excuse. Theyll say "I don't want to pay another $25 a month for a turbo car!" then turn around and dump 3k into a 2900 pound FWD 420a.....

Oh, and the Neon RT will be A LOT cheaper on the insurance than a 2g so if insurance is the real reason you can't afford a certain car then GET THE NEON. It's not even worth looking up due to values of the car. Neon RT = $4k if you look hard where a 2g will be $6k easily.

I'm not "Hating on the tizight N/As dawg!" as people often say. Don't blame me that the truth hurts.

unless your dead set on an Eclipse then get the neon. And you don't have to find an R/T. They just have better suspension from the get go, some of the other models had the 2.0 dohc in them. If i were you i would get a neon which will be a light/fast car or get a 1g becuase their are both cheap to start with.

 

[daltah]

If anyone wants real performance and to be fast then get a 1g gsx or tsi not a 2g.Also did it maybe occur to anyone that maybe they want to buy a car that starts out with only 140hp and build it all up yourself and have around 300 or so.I myself thik it would be alot more gratifying to have a car that started with so little and ended up with so much. Thats just my opinion so lets not everyone freak out.

 

[ChicagoGSX]

Originally posted by daltah
If anyone wants real performance and to be fast then get a 1g gsx or tsi not a 2g.Also did it maybe occur to anyone that maybe they want to buy a car that starts out with only 140hp and build it all up yourself and have around 300 or so.I myself thik it would be alot more gratifying to have a car that started with so little and ended up with so much. Thats just my opinion so lets not everyone freak out.

Some people want looks and power (no offense to 1g owners). Also the older a car gets the less reliable it is. And your second comment was really stupid because not only would you end up with a less reliabl car, but you would spend way more getting there. You guys can keep pushing 5 PSI through your motors and worrying about them, but I prefer 16 PSI and no worries.

 

[WhipmastaFlex]

Originally posted by daltah
If anyone wants real performance and to be fast then get a 1g gsx or tsi not a 2g.Also did it maybe occur to anyone that maybe they want to buy a car that starts out with only 140hp and build it all up yourself and have around 300 or so.I myself thik it would be alot more gratifying to have a car that started with so little and ended up with so much. Thats just my opinion so lets not everyone freak out.

and the difference to go from 140-300hp and going from 210-450hp is...? we're not freaking out trying to prove our 4g63T's worths. the point of this thread wasn't to take pride in making a N/T 140hp econo-car a 300+hp V-8 killer. He wanted to beat his friend with 3.0 TT engines and RX-7s... in other words, get as fast as possible, for as little as possible... thus we recommend a 4g63, not a 420a

also, having a turbo charged car starting off with a T-25 isn't exactly the best platform to start with. it takes just as much, if not more, to take a 4g63 up into corvette/cobra territory pulling 12/11/10 second timeslips.

as for buying a 1g over a 2g for "real" performance...

 

[daltah]

Originally posted by ChicagoGSX


Some people want looks and power (no offense to 1g owners). Also the older a car gets the less reliable it is. And your second comment was really stupid because not only would you end up with a less reliabl car, but you would spend way more getting there. You guys can keep pushing 5 PSI through your motors and worrying about them, but I prefer 16 PSI and no worries.

Your comment was the stupid one.I said that i like to build the car up so their for building it up would also include stronger internals so i could also be running 15-16psi with no worrries.

 

[daltah]

Originally posted by WhipmastaFlex


and the difference to go from 140-300hp and going from 210-450hp is...? we're not freaking out trying to prove our 4g63T's worths. the point of this thread wasn't to take pride in making a N/T 140hp econo-car a 300+hp V-8 killer. He wanted to beat his friend with 3.0 TT engines and RX-7s... in other words, get as fast as possible, for as little as possible... thus we recommend a 4g63, not a 420a

also, having a turbo charged car starting off with a T-25 isn't exactly the best platform to start with. it takes just as much, if not more, to take a 4g63 up into corvette/cobra territory pulling 12/11/10 second timeslips.

as for buying a 1g over a 2g for "real" performance...

Does anyone listen here.I said it was my opinion.You can have your own i dont really car so why doesnt everyone calm down here.Also i agree with the statement if he want a 2g eclipse and wants to beat his friends the yes he should get a 4g63 but this should have ended along time ago,instead of haveing a big neons are better than n/a eclipses and 4g63's are better then both neon and n/a elcipses war.

 

[WhipmastaFlex]

Originally posted by daltah


this should have ended along time ago,instead of haveing a big neons are better than n/a eclipses and 4g63's are better then both neon and n/a elcipses war.

well facts are facts

Originally posted by DSMNightmare
BTW WhipmastaFlex: I like the way you are building up your setup. From the way your profile looks your building it up first and then going for the turbo. Am I right?

yes, but not intentionally... clogged injectors resulting in a detonated piston gives you a good excuse to do a forged rebuild and head/port work. I plan on running an L2R or similar BB turbo with a slight amount of lag giving me time to find some sort of traction, and lots of top end efficiency. being a heavy FWD lardass drop top, i'll be taking off from a roll alot, while hitting the 1320 on occasion as well as, therefore it fits my profile perfectly

 

[Initial DSM]

Those neons running 9's are not streetable and they have some wierd 3 gear automatic transmission setup. Call Howll Automotive, they'll tell you about it. Also, how come noones mentioned Bill Hahns 600hp rs running in the 11's on a stock tranny? He also plans on going to 25g turbo setup and installing a new tranny like the one mentioned above this year. As long as you build up the internals and possibly later upgrading your tranny (TRE or B&E), theres no reason to worry on boosting a 420a, as its been tested and proven by HRC. I thik if I had a 2g turbo, eventually I'd end up swapping the motor out for a 1g anyway and build it up internally as well, so I dont see why everyones arguing, it all ends up the same. Its just the majority of us are not rich, and this stuff takes money and time. Also I think the majority of tuners here will really never be satisfied with the limits of their car. They'll always be buying or tuning it to go faster. Thats the nature of the bug that bites us. Dont forget the 420a was designed off the 4G63 too, with several improvements. Its just that it was intentionally designed as economical minded, so thats why alot of people term it as crap. But it does have potential as much as the 4G63, it all depends on what you want. I'm building a 1g gsx right now and have an rs, so I'm learning from both cars ands have equal respect.

 

[daltah]

Originally posted by Initial DSM
Those neons running 9's are not streetable and they have some wierd 3 gear automatic transmission setup. Call Howll Automotive, they'll tell you about it. Also, how come noones mentioned Bill Hahns 600hp rs running in the 11's on a stock tranny? He also plans on going to 25g turbo setup and installing a new tranny like the one mentioned above this year. As long as you build up the internals and possibly later upgrading your tranny (TRE or B&E), theres no reason to worry on boosting a 420a, as its been tested and proven by HRC. I thik if I had a 2g turbo, eventually I'd end up swapping the motor out for a 1g anyway and build it up internally as well, so I dont see why everyones arguing, it all ends up the same. Its just the majority of us are not rich, and this stuff takes money and time. Also I think the majority of tuners here will really never be satisfied with the limits of their car. They'll always be buying or tuning it to go faster. Thats the nature of the bug that bites us. Dont forget the 420a was designed off the 4G63 too, with several improvements. Its just that it was intentionally designed as economical minded, so thats why alot of people term it as crap. But it does have potential as much as the 4G63, it all depends on what you want. I'm building a 1g gsx right now and have an rs, so I'm learning from both cars ands have equal respect.

I agree well said

 

[Karim]

Originally posted by Oreopride18


Here is the brutal truth: DOHC Neon R/Ts KICK ASS. They dominate FWD autocrossing in their class. Why? Handling. the stock package of the car is amazing. Anywho, let's review a few things.

no flame intended but the neon is no where near the dominating car in G stock anymore, here's the nationals results from last yr http://scca.org/amateur/solo2/nationals/2002/results/gs.html notice wright was the highest neon and he placed 11th. The G stock car to have is now the celica gt. The neon r/t or acr is a fun FWD car but isn't anywhere near the cars at the top of the pack when it comes to autocrossing. The new Neon SRT with a 215hp turbo motor should be a fun overall car though (will never be competitive at autocrossing due to it's lack of an LSD) but it will still be a dang fun car to drive.

Karim

edit: to fix hp number

 

[daltah]

The new srt4 neon is 215hp not 250

 

[WhipmastaFlex]

Originally posted by daltah
The new srt4 neon is 215hp not 250

actually, it dyno's at 223hp/250ft-lbs, been thinking about getting an SRT-4 and selling the DSM, mainly for the warrenty

 

[daltah]

If i could afford a new car payment right now i would buy the new neon srt-4

 

[Goro21]

why would you want one? i can understand the warranty, but other than that.. its just a neon. so ugly it makes my mom turn in her grave

 

[WhipmastaFlex]

Originally posted by Goro21
why would you want one? i can understand the warranty, but other than that.. its just a neon. so ugly it makes my mom turn in her grave

why would anyone want a Evo 8? it's just a Lancer...



250 ft-lbs of torque at the wheels out of the box? neon schmeon, sign me up, and make it either black or silver. drop it, get some nice rims and you got yourself one bad@$$ neon. add the staged upgrades to 300hp/300ft-lbs that doesn't void the 7/70,000 warrenty, i'll take it

 

[Karim]

Originally posted by daltah
The new srt4 neon is 215hp not 250

ah sorry about that, I'll fix it above. I was htinking about the torque numbers.

Why people want it? It's quick and hssuld be fairly easy to maek quicker and more fun. Why i don't want it? Well like you said the looks but that's all a personal thing. Besides that it doesn't handle quite as well as I'd like it to for a FWD car (mazadaspeed protoege, integra type r, or celica are all twice as fun when it comes to handling) and the other hting I don't like abotu the neon is with all the torque coming out of corners when autocrossing or on the road course it's gonna light up the inside tyre due to that fact it doens't have an LSD. Also it's FWD and basically I'm tireed of FWD, after the celica I plan not to own another FWD car again, as fun as it is you can't argue with physics

Karim

 

[Slappster]

I can't believe people are actually debating which engine is better. The fastest 420a is in mid 11s, and fastest 4g63 is 7s, 8s, 9s consistently.

 

[Slappster]

Originally posted by Karim


ah sorry about that, I'll fix it above. I was htinking about the torque numbers.

Why people want it? It's quick and hssuld be fairly easy to maek quicker and more fun. Why i don't want it? Well like you said the looks but that's all a personal thing. Besides that it doesn't handle quite as well as I'd like it to for a FWD car (mazadaspeed protoege, integra type r, or celica are all twice as fun when it comes to handling) and the other hting I don't like abotu the neon is with all the torque coming out of corners when autocrossing or on the road course it's gonna light up the inside tyre due to that fact it doens't have an LSD. Also it's FWD and basically I'm tireed of FWD, after the celica I plan not to own another FWD car again, as fun as it is you can't argue with physics

Karim

The SRT-4 is awd. Dumbass

 

[Goro21]

, awd? you wish bro. get a clue before you start flaming people

Drivetrain Layout: Transverse front-engine, front-wheel drive
Transmission: Five-speed manual


http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0302scc_neon/

 

[WhipmastaFlex]

Originally posted by Slappster


The SRT-4 is awd. Dumbass

the pot calling the kettle black??? :laugh:

 

[daltah]

Originally posted by Slappster
I can't believe people are actually debating which engine is better. The fastest 420a is in mid 11s, and fastest 4g63 is 7s, 8s, 9s consistently.

yeah but think about it how many 420a turbo charged cars out their not alot compared to all the 4G63 cars.Also their are alot of neons with the 420a and some avengers that are in the 9s.Also all the 4G63 cars that are in the 7's and 8's arent probally daily driven and they are more than likely all awd.Their isnt any 420a's out their that are awd and they can still be in the 8's and 9's.

 

[WhipmastaFlex]

Originally posted by daltah



yeah but think about it how many 420a turbo charged cars out their not alot compared to all the 4G63 cars.Also their are alot of neons with the 420a and some avengers that are in the 9s.Also all the 4G63 cars that are in the 7's and 8's arent probally daily driven and they are more than likely all awd.Their isnt any 420a's out their that are awd and they can still be in the 8's and 9's.

once again, you are missing the point. and once again, i will try to explain to you what you are missing.

what we're saying is that a 4g63 can handle 450hp with NO modification to the stock block. try that with a 420a. it is impossible. you have to rebuild the internals. we're not saying it's impossible to make a 420a go fast, or even faster than a 4g63. you can take the motor out of a ford pinto, rebuild it with forged internals and make it fast. you can make any motor fast with the right amount of money. that is not the point. the point is that if you want to go fast in a DSM, the logical choice would be a 4g63 over a 420a... trust me, there is a reason the 420a is in the N/T and the 4g63 is in the GST/GSX

 

[daltah]

Originally posted by WhipmastaFlex


once again, you are missing the point. and once again, i will try to explain to you what you are missing.

what we're saying is that a 4g63 can handle 450hp with NO modification to the stock block. try that with a 420a. it is impossible. you have to rebuild the internals. we're not saying it's impossible to make a 420a go fast, or even faster than a 4g63. you can take the motor out of a ford pinto, rebuild it with forged internals and make it fast. you can make any motor fast with the right amount of money. that is not the point. the point is that if you want to go fast in a DSM, the logical choice would be a 4g63 over a 420a... trust me, there is a reason the 420a is in the N/T and the 4g63 is in the GST/GSX

I already know all that I was just stating some facts,just like you were doing. I already agreed with you and said if you wanna go fast quicker then yes get a 4g63.

 

[Karim]

Originally posted by Slappster


The SRT-4 is awd. Dumbass

pass over whatever your smoking smarty

Karim

 

[Hooah]

I say u should get a n/a becuase the fast and the furious car ran 10's ....rice