3rd and FINAL Round 2009: 14b Talon ends the season on a high..

[Gooberlog]

Funny thing was that pic of the time was up for like a half hour. It was the last pass of the day before they found someone had wet the track down for good and ended the day. So it stayed up.

MB

That's awesome. Kind of like "Unbelievable, a stock turbo talon ran mid 11's?!"

Good stuff Phil, pics look good and can't wait for the vid. Post on this thread when you open up the blog so we can all wander over there.

 

[Phil1320]

That's awesome. Kind of like "Unbelievable, a stock turbo talon ran mid 11's?!"

Good stuff Phil, pics look good and can't wait for the vid. Post on this thread when you open up the blog so we can all wander over there.

Ha! Maybe so....

Thanks!!! I can't wait either!

I will definitely do that when I start the blog........

Just found this:

http://photosbyjim.smugmug.com/Other/Lebanon-10-23-09-Rental/10064981_2EkuU#690295503_nz5U5

and this:

http://photosbyjim.smugmug.com/Other/Lebanon-10-23-09-Rental/10064981_2EkuU#690314260_rGJZn

http://photosbyjim.smugmug.com/Other/Lebanon-10-23-09-Rental/10064981_2EkuU#690727047_yvtSB

http://photosbyjim.smugmug.com/Other/Lebanon-10-23-09-Rental/10064981_2EkuU#690727228_XS3hX

http://photosbyjim.smugmug.com/Other/Lebanon-10-23-09-Rental/10064981_2EkuU#690727228_XS3hX

http://photosbyjim.smugmug.com/Other/Lebanon-10-23-09-Rental/10064981_2EkuU#690736707_6brE5

http://photosbyjim.smugmug.com/Other/Lebanon-10-23-09-Rental/10064981_2EkuU#690789779_zz6Ei

The launch on the 11.49:

http://photosbyjim.smugmug.com/Other/Lebanon-10-23-09-Rental/10064981_2EkuU#690798088_AcU6e

This is the guy's photos that I'm hoping he will release for use in the DSMtuners calendar...........

 

[Gooberlog]

That's awesome seeing the wrinkle in the slicks on a dsm. Usually when i see that at the track is on a mustang or a Cam-arrow. That evo in the pics was squatting pretty good too.

+1 vote for Calendar pics

Phil- What fuel were you running and what coil overs and shocks do you have?

 

[Phil1320]

That's awesome seeing the wrinkle in the slicks on a dsm. Usually when i see that at the track is on a mustang or a Cam-arrow. That evo in the pics was squatting pretty good too.

+1 vote for Calendar pics

Phil- What fuel were you running and what coil overs and shocks do you have?

Thanks! Those pics are really awesome! Yes, there were some cool cars at that event.

Sorry, you asked that before.....VP C16 117 Octane. I have JIC coilovers in there Trav........

 

[bullettdsm]

Hmm, so I looked through those pics Phil. I do like the positioning of the body and weight transfer on launch. She looks like she is sitting very well. I would like to see some pics of the back end too. So we can see the tire squat.

MB

 

[Phil1320]

Hmm, so I looked through those pics Phil. I do like the positioning of the body and weight transfer on launch. She looks like she is sitting very well. I would like to see some pics of the back end too. So we can see the tire squat.

MB

Cool....looks pretty nice......he didn't get any shots from the back at this outing, he got one from July from the back/side that I actually ordered...it's during my launch, but, because of the 15 psi pressure I started of with, there's really no wrinkle at all....

....did you end up getting the vid of my last run??? Talked to Doug and he should be posting the vids on CCDSM and youtube soon......

 

[bullettdsm]

....did you end up getting the vid of my last run??? Talked to Doug and he should be posting the vids on CCDSM and youtube soon......

I DID have a disc in there. But for some reason we can't access it. Hell I can build and run a race car, but I can't run a camcorder, .

Just talked to Doug also, hoping he got a vid of my run for those that asked about seeing it.

MB

 

[Phil1320]

I DID have a disc in there. But for some reason we can't access it. Hell I can build and run a race car, but I can't run a camcorder, .

Just talked to Doug also, hoping he got a vid of my run for those that asked about seeing it.

MB

No biggie Mark, I'm the same way for the most part. I'm sure Doug got you too! Now, we wait!

 

[Gooberlog]

VP C16 117 Octane. I have JIC coilovers in there Trav........

Good to know, thanks.

I was planning on running Eibach springs again with KYB AGX's but seeing those 60' times makes me want to run some slicks at some point, so i'll have to consider some coil overs. Also with the weight out or my car, and more to come, i don't think even with some sportline springs on my car that it will sit low enough. How it is now on the stock suspension it looks like i have the engine out of the car.

 

[Phil1320]

Good to know, thanks.

I was planning on running Eibach springs again with KYB AGX's but seeing those 60' times makes me want to run some slicks at some point, so i'll have to consider some coil overs. Also with the weight out or my car, and more to come, i don't think even with some sportline springs on my car that it will sit low enough. How it is now on the stock suspension it looks like i have the engine out of the car.

Ha! I hear you there......but, you don't have to run coilovers to run the slicks. As much as the fully tucked launch looks killer, all that up and down motion on the launch and 1-2 isn't healthy for the drivetrain.

When I took my Eibach's off the talon it was sitting about 1 inch higher than stock because of all the weight I took out. After the JIC's went in, the car was so light, and the suspension so stiff, I just blew the tires of it in 1st and second gears, even got some front tire spin when hitting 3rd. I had no choice but to do slicks, or I would have had to pull the JIC's out.....NO WAY!

Every combo is a bit different and can produce great short times. But, with mine, it's the way I had to go.

 

[Gooberlog]

Yeah i'm not looking to squat on the launch and blow out my t-case or something, but i thought that coil overs were needed to clear slicks. Will a pro kit or sport lines fit slicks, cause that's what i was planning on running initially.

 

[Phil1320]

Yeah i'm not looking to squat on the launch and blow out my t-case or something, but i thought that coil overs were needed to clear slicks. Will a pro kit or sport lines fit slicks, cause that's what i was planning on running initially.

Ahhh, now I see what you mean......I would think the 24.5's I run would clear, but, I will have to get an idea next time I'm outside with the car, standby on that....

 

[Gooberlog]

Yeah I was plannig on maybe some sport lines and agx's. If i can run that set up and put on slicks down the road that would be cool. Would that size slick fit on my RX-7 wheels 16X8?
I've also been looking into the rear sub frame and mustache bushings as well as some toe eliminators. What else can i look into for suspension upgrades for drag racing with street compatibility?

I have a lot of wish list parts and not much cash. I have no idea what I'm going to do about the engine's low compression. I wanted to build the bottom end so it will support the HX-35 turbo i've been looking at. But since money is tight, maybe i should change my plans and run the 14b for a while longer. Maybe i should plan to re-ring the block, new bearings and gaskets, head studs and put it back in. Then work on the suspension etc. I really want to find a carbon fiber hood to drop some weight. But i'm looking to get DSMlink before all of that. They have been talking about releasing the DSMlink Lite package for a while now but talk is it should be out around early next year. So i may wait on it since it's a lot cheaper w/ everything i need.

 

[dsm-onster]

Your stock 6bolt can handle the hx35 just fine. It's done 600whp on many occasions. And can handle 500whp all day long. If you wan't more power than what the 6bolt can handle, then you need to look at bigger turbos than the fp3052 and the bolton hx35 and the bolton s256.

 

[Gooberlog]

Your stock 6bolt can handle the hx35 just fine. It's done 600whp on many occasions. And can handle 500whp all day long. If you wan't more power than what the 6bolt can handle, then you need to look at bigger turbos than the fp3052 and the bolton hx35 and the bolton s256.

So you think with just a refresh and some head studs and a mitsu multi layer head gasket my stock 6bolt will be just fine? From what i've been reading the HX-35 with a bolt on BEP housing should run around 450ish awhp on pump 93 octane and in the neighborhood of low 500's to the wheels on race gas/alcohol/methanol. If you think the stock bottom end with a rebuild and a decent tune on link will handle it, then i'll just go that route.

I'm only looking for 500awhp at the max. I'd like to have somewhere in the 400's to the wheels on pump gas. With some more weight out the car and good driving: 450 whp @ 2900lbs race weight = 10.8 with some good driving.
So 450 to the wheels, another 100 pounds out of the car and some good driving and it should be a high ten low 11 sec pass, which is right where i want the car over all.

 

[dsm-onster]

You're fine with the stock 6bolt rods. Just freshen up the shortblock.

 

[Gooberlog]

Well i'll probably just refresh it up when i get some cheddar then.

 

[Phil1320]

So you think with just a refresh and some head studs and a mitsu multi layer head gasket my stock 6bolt will be just fine? From what i've been reading the HX-35 with a bolt on BEP housing should run around 450ish awhp on pump 93 octane and in the neighborhood of low 500's to the wheels on race gas/alcohol/methanol. If you think the stock bottom end with a rebuild and a decent tune on link will handle it, then i'll just go that route.

I'm only looking for 500awhp at the max. I'd like to have somewhere in the 400's to the wheels on pump gas. With some more weight out the car and good driving: 450 whp @ 2900lbs race weight = 10.8 with some good driving.
So 450 to the wheels, another 100 pounds out of the car and some good driving and it should be a high ten low 11 sec pass, which is right where i want the car over all.

10's would be nice.......that will be my final goal most likely......just wondering if I'll need a 16G variant to get there. I just don't know that I can somehow reduce ET another .50 to give me a 10.99. I'm definitely trying to work out a strategy to see what I can do. It's got to be lighter if possible. And more power is definitely needed. I most likely really can't get the car out of the hole any better.....maybe low 1.4's but that most likely will not net me much at all on the other end of the track. So, I've got a tough task now. Depending on what I'm able to pull together for next year, the initial goal is to run better than the 11.49 and maybe edge Nate's 11.44. That's probably the most I can ask for at this early stage. I think 2 tenths would be an accomplishment next year, so 11.29.........................

What do you guys think?

 

[SBstar]

I like those goals Phil, to me set your goals as reasonable and build upon that. I think with the cams, a better fmic option, perhaps an extrude honed manifold or similar, and a little more weight loss you should be able to hit those goals without too much issue. Have you compression tested lately? How healthy is that old beast of a motor? Might be something to think about too, obviously you want everything top notch to perform at it's best. Do you or anyone know how much Joe Bucci's car weighed? I can't honestly see it being more then 200lbs lighter then a similarly setup/stripped awd can it?

 

[Gooberlog]

That's a good goal. But, as fast as that car is going, those extra two tenths are going to be tough. That car can't get much lighter than what it already is and your driving is spot on, so i'm guessing some more power will be needed.
I'd like to see what an E16G would do on your car.

 

[Phil1320]

I like those goals Phil, to me set your goals as reasonable and build upon that. I think with the cams, a better fmic option, perhaps an extrude honed manifold or similar, and a little more weight loss you should be able to hit those goals without too much issue. Have you compression tested lately? How healthy is that old beast of a motor? Might be something to think about too, obviously you want everything top notch to perform at it's best. Do you or anyone know how much Joe Bucci's car weighed? I can't honestly see it being more then 200lbs lighter then a similarly setup/stripped awd can it?

Cool, glad your on the same page as me.....those would be the three power parts I'd be interested in. But, the rollbar is going to mop up about $1400 as I will go with chromoly to keep it as light as possible. But, it will still add weight in. So, I may have to get a bit silly with the weight reduction. I have not comp tested that car in 7 yearsso who knows. I'm really not looking to pull the motor apart just to "freshen" it up as was recommended. If it comes apart, it will get built for sure, with all the advantages that Dave and Joe enjoy. Believe it or not, Joe B.s race weight is like 2200, with him in the car, and he doesn't appear to be a horse jockey. My car is still somewhere around 2330-2360, WITHOUT me in it, so yes, his car is WAY more than 200 lbs. lighter than mine. Remember, ONE gallon fuel cell up front in the engine compartment...all the lines and tank gone. Those thinnie rear wheels...etc. But, I can pull more weight, it's just how much, and now I introduce- how much will it cost me? I really have no FREE speed left. I miss those days! ET will be hard to come by now.......I am down to the nitty-gritty.

That's a good goal. But, as fast as that car is going, those extra two tenths are going to be tough. That car can't get much lighter than what it already is and your driving is spot on, so i'm guessing some more power will be needed.
I'd like to see what an E16G would do on your car.

I think so....and like I said after the dragday, I think there is .05 in the car the way it sits, so right at Nate's 11.44. I may even be able to toss some pressure back in the slicks and still match my 60' times and then have a bit more on the top end of the track. I am also going to do some dyno testing if possible. If I can get the larger intercooler, what I'm going to do is start to add some boost and see what happens, I think I'm about maxed at 21 psi, but these guys running 28-30 psi on 16g's to get the huge power are running out of the efficiency range of that turbo as well. For 1/4 mile fine, but to run that high on a daily or roadrace car I think would be pushing it. It seems to be working for them regardless. Granted, old-ass 14b ain't no new E316G but, it's worth a try to see if there's a bit more, but I doubt it, for the reason that 16psi got me 285 at the ground and a 5 psi bump to 21 netted "only" 10 more WHP at 295. Anyway, it's time to start investigating and searching.

 

[pneumo]

One thing I'd recomend if you want to add more boost is to add a stainless braided oil feed line to the turbo.
I took apart my 14b last winter after setting the record, and it had too much thrust play. The thrust bearing had a groove worn in it that was about 1mm deep when it should be flat. I was still using the stock oil feed line which has a restrictor hole in one end of the banjo fittings.

 

[SBstar]

I talked to FP about a rebuild and one of their "monster thrust bearings" that they put into Joe B's Evo III 16g. Can't remember what they told/quoted me though. It would be nice to start with a "new" turbo to handle the stress. You could always order a new 14b, but it would cost just as much as the evo III, just doesn't make sense unless you're crazy about it like we are haha!

Believe it or not, Joe B.s race weight is like 2200, with him in the car, and he doesn't appear to be a horse jockey. My car is still somewhere around 2330-2360, WITHOUT me in it, so yes, his car is WAY more than 200 lbs. lighter than mine. Remember, ONE gallon fuel cell up front in the engine compartment...all the lines and tank gone. Those thinnie rear wheels...etc. But, I can pull more weight, it's just how much, and now I introduce- how much will it cost me? I really have no FREE speed left. I miss those days! ET will be hard to come by now.......I am down to the nitty-gritty.

That's why I said similarly set up awd, not your car! Wow, didn't realize it was that light though, fwd's have all the luck there. You still have stock side/front glass as well which is a good weight savings with lexan, but maybe not what you're looking to do.

 

[camfast]

phil, i would love to see what this car can do with a e16g! This would be your solution to getting into the 10's as your car is setup perfectly in every way. With the 14b your going to kill the car sooner or later and i bet its pushing a lot of heat by now. I would save the cash that you are planning to get cams, extrude honed intake etc... and bolt the e16g instaed. Faster et and mph FTW!!

btw, my car is coming along nicely and its pulling pretty good, so track will be here shortly.

 

[Phil1320]

One thing I'd recomend if you want to add more boost is to add a stainless braided oil feed line to the turbo.
I took apart my 14b last winter after setting the record, and it had too much thrust play. The thrust bearing had a groove worn in it that was about 1mm deep when it should be flat. I was still using the stock oil feed line which has a restrictor hole in one end of the banjo fittings.

Ok, never took a turbo apart but, I'll take your word for it. I still run the original feed line off the head. So run a stainless off the head or from the filter housing like I see people do?

Now that you are here Dave, what type of boost do you run? I have run as much as 23.5, but that was years back and seemed there was no gain over 20 at the time.

I talked to FP about a rebuild and one of their "monster thrust bearings" that they put into Joe B's Evo III 16g. Can't remember what they told/quoted me though. It would be nice to start with a "new" turbo to handle the stress. You could always order a new 14b, but it would cost just as much as the evo III, just doesn't make sense unless you're crazy about it like we are haha!




That's why I said similarly set up awd, not your car! Wow, didn't realize it was that light though, fwd's have all the luck there. You still have stock side/front glass as well which is a good weight savings with lexan, but maybe not what you're looking to do.

Yep, I said the same, in order to challenge Bucci, I have to match his level of modification and then some.......if I did, I feel strongly that I could beat his 1/8 mile for sure, just don't know if I could match ET on that second 1/8th.....

I have been in talks with a guy about side and windshield lexan.....we will see.

Dash Im on the fence about. An aluminum piece would be much lighter than even whats left of my dash.........

Bucci has set the bar VERY high, almost untouchable if you ask me. But, it's still a unibody car so it's still in the same class as far as I'm concerned. I think that's why when we talk about records, he sometimes doesn't get mentioned, because he is SO much quicker, we view it as a different class almost. He and his car definitely stand alone still... and that's why we can say I'm the record holder now, but, that is NOT true. Yeah, we can break it down into classes, but it skews the actual fact of the matter, Joe B. is still the quickest. The only "classing" that I feel is relevent is use of NOS. I can warrant separation there, but, the overall list does not discriminate. I will still be listed as 3rd. And considering I was #11 at the beginning of '09, I'm really happy about that. Pretty huge jump. I knew I was going to jump the 11.7-11.9 guys once I got the car on the track with some grip(slicks.) But, honestly, I wasn't sure I'd come this far. And, what could have happend years ago if regs didn't change from 11.99 to 11.49.....now the rollbar is needed. So, ultimately, I have taken the car as far as it can go with all that in mind. I maxed the car out as it sits and as safety regulations permit. I can't complain.

I appreciate that some of you guys think I've made a record pass. In some regards yes, maybe.....quickest DSM Stock turbo/engine is my claim to fame I'd guess. But, I'd rather not classify AWD vs. FWD 14b. As long as they are still unibody cars with factory drivetrains, that's ONE class to me. So, all things considered, I'm 3rd ALL TIME on the 14b, pretty darn proud after all the gaps in my racing since 2003 and the minimal seat time and time invested this year.

I think it's really going to get interesting from here on out with the 14b...