2.3 stock hp

[staticbrainwash]

All 1ga's had 6 bolts. 92's made before april of 92 also had 6 bolts and possibly 4 bolt rear ends (like mine, 6bolt/4bolt). After april of 92 there was a 1g 7bolt, then in 95 the 2g 7bolt, the difference btwn the 2 gens of 7bolt was primarily the head.

 

[suicidal2af]

Absolutely not, boost is the most relevant as when it is held constant it is what you tune around for a given engine size and compression ratio. An intelligent way to build a car is based on application, then the fuel type. If you are building a street car you want to optimize the turbo to be efficient at the boost level supported by the local pump balanced with a compression ratio that will allow fair amounts of boost. For example, 93 octane has been used in applications of 20+ psi on the street regularly. Thus you want to optimize your turbo by choosing one that will be in it's most efficient area of operation on your engine will be at that boost level and operate across that efficiency level as best it can. Thus a 2.3 will flow more at the same boost level that the 2.0 and will require more fuel at the same level of boost. I actually think that we both understand this, but are not coming across well to one another what our actual point is. I also understand that 400hp is equivalent flow on both applications and less boost on the larger engine (see my previous post about unequal boost).

No, no, no. Nobody builds a car saying "I want to run 23 pounds of boost!" Dende here is a perfect example. He said he wants 400whp. What's that tell us? That he's looking for 50lb/min of airflow. We build supporting mods based off of what his goal is -- not an arbitrary boost number. The fact that he's building a 2.3 just means that we won't require as high of a pressure to obtain that 50lb/min, and that he'll make it earlier in the powerband.

Yes, you do want a turbo which is efficient at the pressures you're running, but again, our end goal is a power number, which airflow has a direct relation to. Boost is an arbitrary figure which has little to do with power. Everybody knows a larger motor with equivalent boost will flow more air -- but that has nothing to do with our situation here..

I won't argue the dyno point further since I agree that it is the (far) lesser of two evils when it comes to power measurement. Boost and airflow are correlated through engine size. You tune for boost in the selection of your setup.

Yes, boost and airflow do have very much to do with each other. However, we're aiming for airflow. It's already been stated that his goal is 400whp. Assuming we hit that goal, what does it matter whether the turbo makes it at 18psi or 39psi? We're looking for airflow, not psi.

I will never suggest 580's for a 500 whp setup. It may have been done by tuning to the very edge, but what is the point if he can have the safety margin of larger injectors? I would rather have the safety margin as the injectors so long as it didn't disrupt lower levels of operation like city driving. From my personal experience, even large injectors get good atomization and the turbulence of the head flow and inside the cylinder will aid in this.

I'll budge to say that he could possibly use something in the mid 700's to lower 800's in order to achieve his goals as it has been done many times over, but any lower and he is running out of a safety margin that someone of his level needs.

I'd never tell someone to run 580's for a 500whp setup. Hell, 580's would have trouble on a max-effort e316g setup. For someone aiming for 400whp, 720's would probably be the optimal size. Jump up to 820 if you eventually want more, but 980's are massive overkill. oddrob's 10 second fwd talon is running 1000cc injectors, and he's dynoing mid 500's iirc?

Assuming he wants a little growing room and safety margin, I'd still stick with my original recommendation of 780's.

 

[Turbocharged]

I want to chime in about the injector arguement. I have run 550's, 680's, and now 880's. I never thought I would be maxing out 550's or 680's, but I did. Go big now so you dont have to buy the same parts over and over. Im on my third turbo, third set of injectors, and second intercooler/intake setup. Im in the market for another turbo. I hate myself...

Suicidal - Please dont say larger injectors result in driveability or tuning issues. With dsmlink you simply dial in a global setting and deadtime that results in ~0% LTFT's (lo and mid). In fact, Im closer to 0% with 880's than I was with the stock fuel setup. The car will behave as if it had 450's on a stock ECU; I speak from experience. Ask anyone on the dsmlink forum.

Go big now because you never know what your goals will be tomorrow.

 

[suicidal2af]

Suicidal - Please dont say larger injectors result in driveability or tuning issues. With dsmlink you simply dial in a global setting and deadtime that results in ~0% LTFT's (lo and mid). In fact, Im closer to 0% with 880's than I was with the stock fuel setup. The car will behave as if it had 450's on a stock ECU; I speak from experience. Ask anyone on the dsmlink forum.

Go big now because you never know what your goals will be tomorrow.

It's proven fact that larger injectors, when flowing lower amounts of fuel, will not atomize as well as a smaller injector flowing the same amount. This will result in 3 things:

1) Less torque at low-fuel events
2) Worse gas mileage. Tests that I've seen have shown up to 20% worse.
3) Worse results on emissions tests.

And it will be harder to tune. It takes longer to fully open a large injector than a small one. This makes it harder to precisely control the amount of fuel being injected than with a smaller injector.

Think of it this way: if there was *no* disadvantage to running the biggest injector you can find, why did mitsubishi only put 450's in there? Why does every manufacturer size stock injectors based on the output of the engine they're using?

 

[Turbocharged]

It's proven fact that larger injectors, when flowing lower amounts of fuel, will not atomize as well as a smaller injector flowing the same amount. This will result in 3 things:

1) Less torque at low-fuel events
2) Worse gas mileage. Tests that I've seen have shown up to 20% worse.
3) Worse results on emissions tests.

And it will be harder to tune. It takes longer to fully open a large injector than a small one. This makes it harder to precisely control the amount of fuel being injected than with a smaller injector.

Think of it this way: if there was *no* disadvantage to running the biggest injector you can find, why did mitsubishi only put 450's in there? Why does every manufacturer size stock injectors based on the output of the engine they're using?

The time it takes for the injector to open in accounted for in the dead time correction.

Why does mitsu use a bov that can only hold 9 psi? Why does mitsu use a t25? Because these cars were never meant for 400 hp. Its one of my pet pieves when people make these arguements. Nothing personal. Mitsubishi does not make 400 hp cars. If they did, they would use much larger injectors. He is doubling his horsepower; using your convention he should double his injector size to stay consistent with mitsubishi's intended design.

I get 25 mpg on a full weight 2.4 power dsm. I think this is pretty good. I have also passed emissions without a catalytic converter or EGR.

I agree with the atomization arguement but its extreme to say that 880's have an atomization problem. As long as rail pressure is good and you have a quality injector, this is a non issue (unless you are running very large injectors). At 90% IDC, the spray pattern of most injectors begins to sputter. Either way, a ball or disc style injector will atomize better than the stock pintle style injectors.

 

[Injected]

It's proven fact that larger injectors, when flowing lower amounts of fuel, will not atomize as well as a smaller injector flowing the same amount. This will result in 3 things:

1) Less torque at low-fuel events
2) Worse gas mileage. Tests that I've seen have shown up to 20% worse.
3) Worse results on emissions tests.

And it will be harder to tune. It takes longer to fully open a large injector than a small one. This makes it harder to precisely control the amount of fuel being injected than with a smaller injector.

Think of it this way: if there was *no* disadvantage to running the biggest injector you can find, why did mitsubishi only put 450's in there? Why does every manufacturer size stock injectors based on the output of the engine they're using?

Suicidal,
I think we both understand the correlation between flow and power. And no, Dende is not shooting for a specific boost level, but I didn't say he subscribes to the school of thought I was refererring to. The idea is to plan around both the engine setup and the fuel available, which will determine the amount of boost available and thus how much power is available using that displacement and boost level. Power is usually the first thing people think of and why people who don't know any better will want to make unreasonable amounts of power in a street car. Though it seems counterintuitive, it is actually because that is how it works and your mind naturally skips it. Think about this: select a much different engine, say LS1 (5.7L V8) with a 10.5:1 compression ratio. You want a street setup and forced induction is the way to go. A supercharger is the best way to get there since there doesn't seem to be any room for two turbos under the manifolds and plus, there are good intercooled, centrifugal blower setups out there. Now how much power can you make? You still can't answer this without knowing what level of boost you can feed to the engine given the fuel available. In this application, it is more critical that you think this way since the boost is a fixed level attrubute of the system based on pulley selection. If you can run 6lbs safely, then you select that pulley and if you can run 9lbs, then you select a larger pulley. Now you can tell me how much power is available to you based on your engine size, compression ratio and boost level. That is the power needed to be supported by the fuel injectors. Power is an afterthought unless you are building a dyno queen that will run rocket fuel.

This is besides the point. To obtain 400whp on street gas using the commonly accepted mid-8:1 compression ratio and 2-2.3L displacement is commonplace and we don't even think about the factors to such extent, he needs to plan to run a turbo setup that will be efficient at the boost level supportable by his fuel type. If he was trying to make 400 whp on 87 octane, he would need to figure out how to achive that, which may then be impossible without trying to achieve a larger displacement.

Thanks Turbocharged for chiming in. I think it is great that Dende hears from as many people with experience as possible no matter what their opinion.

I also think that a modern disc/ball injector plus cylinder turbulence provides plenty of atomization at low speeds (rpms that is). As a matter of fact, turbulence aiding in fuel atomization is cited as one of the advantages of direct port injection.

 

[Turbocharged]

I also think that a modern disc/ball injector plus cylinder turbulence provides plenty of atomization at low speeds (rpms that is). As a matter of fact, turbulence aiding in fuel atomization is cited as one of the advantages of direct port injection.

You get a cookie.

 

[suicidal2af]

Suicidal,
I think we both understand the correlation between flow and power. And no, Dende is not shooting for a specific boost level, but I didn't say he subscribes to the school of thought I was refererring to. The idea is to plan around both the engine setup and the fuel available, which will determine the amount of boost available and thus how much power is available using that displacement and boost level. Power is usually the first thing people think of and why people who don't know any better will want to make unreasonable amounts of power in a street car. Though it seems counterintuitive, it is actually because that is how it works and your mind naturally skips it. Think about this: select a much different engine, say LS1 (5.7L V8) with a 10.5:1 compression ratio. You want a street setup and forced induction is the way to go. A supercharger is the best way to get there since there doesn't seem to be any room for two turbos under the manifolds and plus, there are good intercooled, centrifugal blower setups out there. Now how much power can you make? You still can't answer this without knowing what level of boost you can feed to the engine given the fuel available. In this application, it is more critical that you think this way since the boost is a fixed level attrubute of the system based on pulley selection. If you can run 6lbs safely, then you select that pulley and if you can run 9lbs, then you select a larger pulley. Now you can tell me how much power is available to you based on your engine size, compression ratio and boost level. That is the power needed to be supported by the fuel injectors. Power is an afterthought unless you are building a dyno queen that will run rocket fuel.

This is besides the point. To obtain 400whp on street gas using the commonly accepted mid-8:1 compression ratio and 2-2.3L displacement is commonplace and we don't even think about the factors to such extent, he needs to plan to run a turbo setup that will be efficient at the boost level supportable by his fuel type. If he was trying to make 400 whp on 87 octane, he would need to figure out how to achive that, which may then be impossible without trying to achieve a larger displacement.

Running x amount of boost is never our end goal. Why? Because the efficiency of any particular compressor guarantees that you'll never make the same power at the same boost level on two different turbos or superchargers.

Example? Let's say he wants to run 23psi. This has done on a t25(larryd did it, i believe). He made 220whp. Now take a 50 trim and run 23psi. Both times we've met our goal of 23psi, but who made more power?

Let's go back to your LS1 example. Yeah, we can pick a pulley to run 7psi or 9psi. What compressor are you using? The Procharger F-1 and F-2 both push a max of 38psi. At 38psi, the F-1 is flowing 1525cfm. The F-2, at the same level, is flowing 2700cfm.

Both run the same boost, but power is going to be drastically different. We size compressor, and in the case of a turbo the turbine, to accomodate our power goals.

Point is, fuel doesn't care about pressure. We don't tune a Pressure/Fuel ratio. Even though the above procharger example has both compressors pushing 38psi, you're going to need significantly more fuel on the F-2.

So how do we determine how much fuel we need for x psi? We can't.

The flaw in your argument is that it assumes that you will always flow the exact same amount of air at any boost level, which is absolutely not true.

 

[staticbrainwash]

As amazing of information as this is guys, i think we've lost sight of the OP. This is all learning for him, and i have a feeling this stuff is WAY WAY above his head for now.

I think for the time being we just need to get him in the car and get it running and on the road. So until he picks up a few things and we help him get the basics done thats not going to happen.

Im not trying to be an asshole here, but the biggest thing we should be worrying about is getting Dende on the road and happy with his 2.3.

 

[Injected]

Running x amount of boost is never our end goal. Why? Because the efficiency of any particular compressor guarantees that you'll never make the same power at the same boost level on two different turbos or superchargers.

Example? Let's say he wants to run 23psi. This has done on a t25(larryd did it, i believe). He made 220whp. Now take a 50 trim and run 23psi. Both times we've met our goal of 23psi, but who made more power?

Let's go back to your LS1 example. Yeah, we can pick a pulley to run 7psi or 9psi. What compressor are you using? The Procharger F-1 and F-2 both push a max of 38psi. At 38psi, the F-1 is flowing 1525cfm. The F-2, at the same level, is flowing 2700cfm.

Both run the same boost, but power is going to be drastically different. We size compressor, and in the case of a turbo the turbine, to accomodate our power goals.

Point is, fuel doesn't care about pressure. We don't tune a Pressure/Fuel ratio. Even though the above procharger example has both compressors pushing 38psi, you're going to need significantly more fuel on the F-2.

So how do we determine how much fuel we need for x psi? We can't.

The flaw in your argument is that it assumes that you will always flow the exact same amount of air at any boost level, which is absolutely not true.

Nope, no flaws. Compressor selection and efficiency is a determining factor to how much air you will flow. Once you know how much air you can flow, you can determine how much fuel to run.

As amazing of information as this is guys, i think we've lost sight of the OP. This is all learning for him, and i have a feeling this stuff is WAY WAY above his head for now.

I think for the time being we just need to get him in the car and get it running and on the road. So until he picks up a few things and we help him get the basics done thats not going to happen.

Im not trying to be an asshole here, but the biggest thing we should be worrying about is getting Dende on the road and happy with his 2.3.

I agree, and we can start a new thread. If either of you do, PM me and I'll jump in.

 

[Dende00]

Im still here, I read the thread, just holding out til payday. The injector stuff is more important than I thought. I really dont know what size to order for injectors. I have no idea what 400whp feels like, im coming from 210hp. If anyone can give me an idea of the power? Im thinking I want 450- 500whp now. For 500whp how much more would I need to change for the setup?

 

[Injected]

Im still here, I read the thread, just holding out til payday. The injector stuff is more important than I thought. I really dont know what size to order for injectors. I have no idea what 400whp feels like, im coming from 210hp. If anyone can give me an idea of the power? Im thinking I want 450- 500whp now. For 500whp how much more would I need to change for the setup?

Give me more info on the engine that you are dropping in such as overbore information, what exactly is being done to the head, etc. Upping the power will take a little more planning, but is possible. At least you are deciding to go bigger before purchasing all your parts. I'll post more information on this tomorrow.

 

[staticbrainwash]

If you take car of basic bolt on's for now, then you should be all set once boost hits big. Since you're already getting dsmlink that takes care of tuning.

The thing that will more or less get you the power you want is a Turbo and fuel tuning. But you need to get that motor going period before you think about 500whp.

And you aren't coming from 210whp, you're comming from around 140-160whp.

 

[Dende00]

If you take car of basic bolt on's for now, then you should be all set once boost hits big. Since you're already getting dsmlink that takes care of tuning.

The thing that will more or less get you the power you want is a Turbo and fuel tuning. But you need to get that motor going period before you think about 500whp.

And you aren't coming from 210whp, you're comming from around 140-160whp.

So for now just stick with the basic setup for getting the motor running. I really think im in for a broken neck, the difference is 100's of miles a part. I think this project might be the end of me . I will list the parts of the motor later, when shop opens up.

 

[nanokpsi]

I looked at the stats of cars above or a little below 400whp. I see that most of them were using race gas, only one was using pump gas. I have no clue if gas has anything to do with it, but I am running a 2.3 motor so would I not want bigger than the norm for injectors. Does that make any sense? Well with my ECU its EPROM, I thought my fingers were going to bleed unplugging the wiring harness. What are caps?

Since you are runing dsmlink, just get 950-1150cc injectors. There are no driveability problems running those. I would just say get the 1600s but it seems to be hot or miss even with dsmlink as far as daily driving problems are concerend. Mainly you need to size injectors by the power you want so you don't have to buy/sell multiple sets.

I currently run 950s but need something bigger. I wish I would have gone bigger to begin with. I was also making 428whp on pump gas on a stock 2g motor. Once my 2.4 long block gets back from Polk Performance we will find out what the 950s will do.

 

[Dende00]

Since you are runing dsmlink, just get 950-1150cc injectors. There are no driveability problems running those. I would just say get the 1600s but it seems to be hot or miss even with dsmlink as far as daily driving problems are concerend. Mainly you need to size injectors by the power you want so you don't have to buy/sell multiple sets.

I currently run 950s but need something bigger. I wish I would have gone bigger to begin with. I was also making 428whp on pump gas on a stock 2g motor. Once my 2.4 long block gets back from Polk Performance we will find out what the 950s will do.

I guess 400- 500whp for a stocker is a waste of time. Well on to parts I can list a few eagle rods, wiseco pistons, 2.4 crank (Mitsubishi), main journal girdle. The street head lil port and polish (nothin out of this world). I will post better parts and machine process once I recieve the shops email.

 

[Injected]

Since you are runing dsmlink, just get 950-1150cc injectors. There are no driveability problems running those. I would just say get the 1600s but it seems to be hot or miss even with dsmlink as far as daily driving problems are concerend. Mainly you need to size injectors by the power you want so you don't have to buy/sell multiple sets.

I currently run 950s but need something bigger. I wish I would have gone bigger to begin with. I was also making 428whp on pump gas on a stock 2g motor. Once my 2.4 long block gets back from Polk Performance we will find out what the 950s will do.

I would like to know what IDC you were seeing at 428whp (which is over 500hp on an AWD car). Can you post a log? I think it would be good for Dende to see one.

 

[gr8popp]

I honor your motivation to help this guy out. He is dropping in a 2.3 with stock exhaust, turbo, no intercooler and he's worried about DSMlink? Good luck.

 

[staticbrainwash]

We will get him going. He understands he's got a lot to do to get it to run right. But just getting it to run period is the first hurdle. Once that happens he can look into turbo/intercooling/exhaust.

I'm excited for him actually, i wanna know if we've been able to help enough to pull this off.

 

[Dende00]

We will get him going. He understands he's got a lot to do to get it to run right. But just getting it to run period is the first hurdle. Once that happens he can look into turbo/intercooling/exhaust.

I'm excited for him actually, i wanna know if we've been able to help enough to pull this off.

This will happen, I dont believe in defeat. As long as I can still work. http://www.dsmtuners.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=49596&cat=7
Im thinking about buying my ecu from this guy instead to save money. What do you guys think? Thanx

 

[Injected]

This will happen, I dont believe in defeat. As long as I can still work. http://www.dsmtuners.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=49596&cat=7
Im thinking about buying my ecu from this guy instead to save money. What do you guys think? Thanx

Go for it. Just be sure to get everything and you will be all set on the DSMLink. Heck, if you could get it installed before the engine startup, you could use it as a diagnostic tool for your initial tune.

Are you going to replace the primary O2 sensor as well? I would suggest doing so as whatever took the last engine could have F-ed it up.

 

[Dende00]

Go for it. Just be sure to get everything and you will be all set on the DSMLink. Heck, if you could get it installed before the engine startup, you could use it as a diagnostic tool for your initial tune.

Are you going to replace the primary O2 sensor as well? I would suggest doing so as whatever took the last engine could have F-ed it up.

I still didn't recieve any email back from that guy, im waitin (dsmlink). Wha is a 02 sensor and how much is it for. I got my MBC yesterday. Should I install it to have it setup?

 

[Turbocharged]

I still didn't recieve any email back from that guy, im waitin (dsmlink). Wha is a 02 sensor and how much is it for. I got my MBC yesterday. Should I install it to have it setup?

No offense but you are going to need someone holding your hand through this entire process. You need to do a lot of research.

 

[Dende00]

A lil change in plans once again. I have half of the rest of my motor money (by next week), so instead of buying dsmlink im going to wait until I finish paying for the rest of it. I cant let it reach the end of next month without having the money for it. The guy from Pina Motorsport told me that he will set it up so that it can be driven safely for the time being. My job does not offer me steady income, and it might close the end of next month for 2 weeks, renovation. After the motor is in I dont plan on driving it, I will leave it parked. These obstacles delay my plans so much.

 

[Injected]

A lil change in plans once again. I have half of the rest of my motor money (by next week), so instead of buying dsmlink im going to wait until I finish paying for the rest of it. I cant let it reach the end of next month without having the money for it. The guy from Pina Motorsport told me that he will set it up so that it can be driven safely for the time being. My job does not offer me steady income, and it might close the end of next month for 2 weeks, renovation. After the motor is in I dont plan on driving it, I will leave it parked. These obstacles delay my plans so much.

Okay, it's been about a month. What's then news..?