Resolved 1G Tried everything, clutch still won't disengage

[DarthBulk]

My clutch will not disengage. I have a brand new ACT 2600 and ACT Streetlite flywheel. Here is the short version of what I have tried already.

Fully rebuilt my clutch pedal assembly. See the thread here http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196048

Brand new master and slave cylinders

Brand new clutch fork pivot ball

Brand new braided SS clutch line

Bled the clutch system correctly (trust me). Clutch would not disengage

When it wouldn't disengage, I tried shimming the pivot ball with 2 washers. Now the end of my clutch fork leans to the driver's side correctly like in the RRE diagram.

Clutch still wouldn't disengage, so I tried the longer slave cylinder rod. Still didn't work.

Today I took out my master cylinder, cut the rod and welded in another 1/2 inch of rod so I would have more adjustment. Adjusted this all the way out (in small steps), and clutch STILL will not disengage.

To be honest, I never checked the step height on the flywheel, because I assumed that ACT knew what they were doing when they machined this brand new flywheel. Am I right to make that assumption?

When I adjust the rod under the dash on the master cylinder out of the clevis, I get resistance in the clutch pedal farther and farther up. I can adjust it so that I feel resistance right near the top, and I feel resistance in it all the way to the floor. I never feel a change in this resistance...it just feels heavy all the way to the floor. If I adjust the rod the other way, all it does is give me more and more free play at the top before I feel the resistance.

Now I am at a loss. What else can I possibly do? I am sick of planting my head under the dash, removing the transmission, etc. This is killing me. I have my car running with a slightly modified AEM EMS basemap now, and I want to get it on the road and do some tuning! If I can't think of something else to try, I am going to have the car towed to a shop and let them figure it out (I can't believe I said that, after doing my entire build up to this point by myself). I am in dire need of suggestions.

 

[PSIcho]

I'll check that too, but moving an ACT 2600 manually is not easy

Another reason for working out That and removing tranny by yourself. Anyway, I used a long crescent wrench to do this, for leverage, but I think I had my bumper off at that time too (for another reason).

 

[pitbull419]

man i know how you feel im going threw the same thing right now
i actually just dropped my tranny again 20 min ago
i did a clutch job 2 months ago a can get my clutch to dissengsge (still)
i have a new slave and master
i had somebody press the clutch pedel in and i got under the car and tried to move the fork
it wouldnt move any farther
my throwout bearing is touching the pressure plate i can see the mark it leaves
its frustrating
well good luck i hope you get it fixed

 

[wishihadatalon]

Another reason for working out That and removing tranny by yourself. Anyway, I used a long crescent wrench to do this, for leverage, but I think I had my bumper off at that time too (for another reason).

eh you are luccky cause you have a gst try doing an awd in the driveway with no one around. But I guess the auto guys have it the worst.

 

[Morphius]

I'd almost suspect you biased the lever on the clutch pedal cross shaft the wrong direction. I've been there done that, and it's marginal at best for disengagement.

However, given your list of new parts, I'd try a AWD 3000gt slave. Smaller bore which equates to more ouput at the slave for the same input at the master. Do note that pedal effort will be higher though.

But I already took out the master cylinder and cut that rod, welded in another 1/2 inch of rod, and now have an entire 1/2 inch extra of adjustment in that rod. That still didn't help, unfortunately.

It won't. The output of your slave is based on the ratios of the MC to SC and the throw or the number of degrees of throw of your pedal. When you adjust the MC input rod, you are adjusting the height of the pedal to maximize the amount of angular swing for engagment/disengagement. If you lengthen it too far, you bottom the pedal out on the top stop and start to push the rod into the master. At that point, you won't get any more ouput. You've put the MC into cutoff and 'fixed' the amount of fluid from the MC to SC. It can't flow back into the MC to compensate for tolerences or wear on the clutch. In this state, you can get 'pump-up'.

 

[pitbull419]

my car is an awd and im doing it myself in my drive way

 

[DarthBulk]

It won't. The output of your slave is based on the ratios of the MC to SC and the throw or the number of degrees of throw of your pedal. When you adjust the MC input rod, you are adjusting the height of the pedal to maximize the amount of angular swing for engagment/disengagement. If you lengthen it too far, you bottom the pedal out on the top stop and start to push the rod into the master. At that point, you won't get any more ouput. You've put the MC into cutoff and 'fixed' the amount of fluid from the MC to SC. It can't flow back into the MC to compensate for tolerences or wear on the clutch. In this state, you can get 'pump-up'.

Thanks for the input. My goal in lengthening the MC rod was to get the maximum range of motion out of the slave cylinder. I can tell exactly where adjusting this rod stops removing the top end free play of the pedal, and starts pushing the piston into the MC. I did not lengthen it too far, as I am well aware of the operating principles of this system
I don't think the lever on the clutch pedal cross shaft is wrong. When I have everything adjusted so that the pedal will immediately start to move the master cylinder at the top of it's stroke, and the slave cylinder of course moves immediately as a result, there still isn't enough motion. If the lever arm was somehow wrong, it would not affect stroke length, correct? It would only affect engagement point. I feel I am getting the full range of motion out of my master cylinder.
I will look into the AWD 3000GT slave cylinder. Is it a direct bolt on, or does it require modification or an adapter of some sort?

 

[my_precious]

I went through the same problems. Fortunately for me mine was fixed when i finally replaced the master cyl and flex line.

HOWEVER, I had Mavisky helping me alot and one thing he said it could have been was the clutch disc was in backwards. Yes, something so simple can do it. If you installed the disc wrong, then thats your problem i bet. One side of the disc the springs are poking out more.

I cant remember which way is correct but mav told me it'll cause the clutch to not disengage properly, just like your having problems with. Its just another idea in the think tube sorry if it feels like an insult or something. Just trying to help.

Later,

Zach

 

[DarthBulk]

I went through the same problems. Fortunately for me mine was fixed when i finally replaced the master cyl and flex line. HOWEVER, I had Mavisky helping me alot and one thing he said it could have been was the clutch disc was in backwards. Yes, something so simple can do it. If you installed the disc wrong, then thats your problem i bet. One side of the disc the springs are poking out more. I cant remember which way is correct but mav told me it'll cause the clutch to not disengage properly, just like your having problems with. Its just another idea in the think tube sorry if it feels like an insult or something. Just trying to help.

Later,

Zach

Not an insult at all, your suggestion is definitely a possibility of something that I may have done wrong. Thanks! This is the kind of help I am looking for...something that I haven't tried or thought of yet, or something wrong with what I have already done. All help is appreciated!

 

[GVR4592]

I know you're getting a lot of repetitive questions but there's no way for us to know how competent you are from reading your posts on the internet. From what I'm reading it sounds like you know exactly what you're doing, but I'm going to ask some questions anyway.

Have you verified that there are no leaks at the master cylinder or slave cylinder? Have you checked for freeplay in the new pedal assembly? I've installed them before and had them not work properly.

If those things check out I would go back to step 1. Remove the tranny and all of the componenets you installed. Put the length of the master cylinder rod back to stock, remove the washers from the pivot ball, check the step height on the flywheel, make sure the clutch is ok, inspect everything for damage, then re-instal and bleed the system again. It's a ton of work, but it seems like you've tried everything else short of doing this. My guess is you did something wrong or the pedal assembly is screwed. Good luck

 

[DarthBulk]

I have verified that that are no leaks at the master or slave cylinder, or anywhere in between. I have checked the free play in the new pedal assembly, and there is almost zero play between the new clutch pedal and lever arm. You can see what I did with rebuilding the pedal assembly in the post that I linked to in my first post in this thread.

Going back to step one was exactly what I knew was next, but also exactly what I don't want to do Oh well, back to the drawing board, I guess.

 

[92awddsm]

If you installed the disc wrong, then thats your problem i bet. One side of the disc the springs are poking out more. I cant remember which way is correct but mav told me it'll cause the clutch to not disengage properly, just like your having problems with. Its just another idea in the think tube sorry if it feels like an insult or something. Just trying to help.

Later,

Zach

The raised side of the spring pack goes toward the pressure plate and the flatter side faces the flywheel. Most clutch disks (act included) usually have a small sticker on the center of the disk that states "flywheel side".

In a situation of a disk being installed backwards, generally, you can get the pp to bolt solid against the step of the flywheel. I hope you would have noticed that if it were the problem. And if it is installed backwards, if you could get it to release some, it would make a horrible grinding noise while doing it.

 

[DarthBulk]

Thanks! Well, maybe that is my problem. I would like to think that I noticed a sticker if there was one on there, but anything is possible. I never got the clutch to disengage at all.

 

[BrokenTsi]

what are the pp bolts torqued to?

 

[DarthBulk]

what are the pp bolts torqued to?

I don't remember the exact number, but I torqued them according to the specification in the factory manuals, which I have. Should it be different for an ACT 2600 clutch and Streetlite flywheel?

 

[92awddsm]

I don't remember the exact number, but I torqued them according to the specification in the factory manuals, which I have. Should it be different for an ACT 2600 clutch and Streetlite flywheel?

No, factory spec is fine for pressure plate bolts. Torque is based on the bolt used, not the flywheel or pp you use it on.

 

[DarthBulk]

No, factory spec is fine for pressure plate bolts. Torque is based on the bolt used, not the flywheel or pp you use it on.

Good. Then I should be fine, because I bought new PP bolts from Mitsubishi for this.

 

[GVR4592]

Torqueing pressure plate bolts can be a little tricky sometimes you can reach the final torque value and the pressure plate will not be in contact with the disc.

I don't know if this is the wrong way to do it but I always tighten the bolts in crisscross pattern until the pressure plate is making full contact with the disc. Then I loosen the bolts one at a time and torque them to their final value, in a crisscross pattern. I've always done it that way and never had a problem, but it might not be the correct way to do it.

 

[my_precious]

RRE specifically says to use ONE washer under the pivot ball ONLY. NOT TWO. i had two under mine to begin with and this was one of my main problems with it releasing. took one out and left the thicker of the two in and it works fine now. ONE WASHER, i also recomend puting everything back to stock as far as the master cyl rod and slave rod etc goes....ALSO, it wont hurt to take the flywheel to a machine shop to check the specs. if they are off have them resurface it. one more thing, RRE told me that 10% of the time, if ground on a stone mill, the flywheel can actually be a little higher on the outter part of the inside (lower surfaced portion, not the risen part). its best to have it done on an industrial laythe or send it to RRE (they have one). However, i would assume that the flywheel would be fine from the factory. Make sure to wipe it down with brake cleaner too to prevent chatter. If you installed everything properly after you take it apart, and it STILL gives you problems, it could be a faulty clutch disk or something wrong with a part you have. If it still gives you problems I think your best bet is to take it somewheres like you first wanted to.


I was so pissed because i was forsure thinking I'd have to remove my tranny again (for a second time). Ive heard of people on here taking the tranny off 3 times or more and I dont know how they can do it. Only suggestions are do replace everything the first time and do it right so you wont have to go back and say "i wish i replaced this or did this differently". in the end though, we all make mistakes and the best thing to do is to learn from it. Just think after taking the tranny out 4 times and doing this you should be able to do it right the first time in a couple hours tops eh? maybe start charging people to do theirs too? experience is priceless i always say.

oh and one more thing, if you put it in gear before you start the car, and then start the car WITH the clutch in and it moves, obviously its not disengaging. however, if you do it and it doesnt move (maybe after you redo some stuff) but it still doesnt want to go into gear if started in neutral (meaning it'll grind in a gear or two or maybe all) it could be your shift linkage. I am having problems with having a 90 linkage and cables and having a 1991+ year tranny...doesnt work well. biggest pain in the world is having a DSM in my garage and not being able to drive it...it runs decent but nooo, theres the whole "cant shift" thing

 

[TalonJohn94]

I don't have time to read through your whole thread but I had the EXACT same problem. I think the problem is that the ACT parts (clutch/flywheel) change the geometry of the whole system which makes altering at least one part of the system is required.

I welded a nut on the backside of the C-clip, which gave me about another 1/2 of adjustability. It worked great - and I haven't had problems since, although I haven't put more than 1000 miles on the whole system.

Let me know your remedy, which you WILL find eventually.

 

[DarthBulk]

Thanks, I will definitely post the remedy when I find it I have been putting off taking the whole transmission out again to check the orientation of the friction disc, because I have a firm appointment date with AMS in the start of October and I was planning on just letting them take care of it. If I feel industrious before then, I might check it out. But right now I am burned out on this clutch issue. After a couple of years of building the car, getting it to fire right up with a slightly modified AEM base map, and then discovering that I can't put the car in gear so I can go out and tune it, is really frustrating.

 

[92awddsm]

I think the problem is that the ACT parts (clutch/flywheel) change the geometry of the whole system which makes altering at least one part of the system is required.

Act clutches dont change any geometry of the clutch system. It just amplifies problems caused by other worn or broken parts. The only thing that should be modified when installing an act clutch is the rubber slave cylinder hose. When installing a heavier pp, it is always reccomended to install a braided line in place of the rubber.

I have had my act 2600 in my car since 2000 and have yet to have any problems with it. I did install new clutch fork, pivot ball, master cylinder, slave cylinder, and braided slave hose. All I had to do was readjust it after it was installed, no modifications needed. If you had to mod other parts to get the clutch to work, you either have other worn or broken parts, improperly machined flywheel, or you did something wrong on the install.

 

[TalonJohn94]

Act clutches dont change any geometry of the clutch system. It just amplifies problems caused by other worn or broken parts. The only thing that should be modified when installing an act clutch is the rubber slave cylinder hose. When installing a heavier pp, it is always reccomended to install a braided line in place of the rubber.

I have had my act 2600 in my car since 2000 and have yet to have any problems with it. I did install new clutch fork, pivot ball, master cylinder, slave cylinder, and braided slave hose. All I had to do was readjust it after it was installed, no modifications needed. If you had to mod other parts to get the clutch to work, you either have other worn or broken parts, improperly machined flywheel, or you did something wrong on the install.

I know. I've heard that argument time and again. The only problem is that I DID/TRIED EVERYTHING before I used what I considered to be last resorts. I mean, I tried:

• Pulling transmission to check ACT flywheel step height
• Double checking Forced Performance’s Pressure Plate Kit studs/bolts
• Install NEW pivot ball
• Install NEW clutch fork
• Install NEW slave cylinder
• Install NEW master cylinder
• Install SS clutch tube/line
• Install NEW transmission-to-engine bolts
• Install NEW clutch pedal assembly w/OEM bushings
• Install NEW C-bracket
• Install NEW clevis pin
• Measure crankshaft endplay (within spec)
• Check Motor Mounts (One mount was suspect)

Then, when those things resulted in little to NO change, I tried:

• Weld clutch pedal assembly
• Longer slave cylinder rod
• Shim clutch pivot ball
• Bleed hydraulic clutch system
• Bleed hydraulic clutch system
• Bleed hydraulic clutch system

And finally, welding a nut on the C-clip to provide more master cylinder adjustability worked wonderfully. I had heard about this and a couple other tricks, and felt like those were band-aid solutions - but I was told by a local speed shop [TopStreet] that many people have to do this for the ACT parts to work correctly.

So which of my parts were "worn or broken" ?

And I'm NOT trying to be too argumentative about the issue, but maybe everyone's OEM/ACT parts are a little different. After all we're talking here.

 

[DarthBulk]

I have to agree, it sounds like we are in the same situation. The only thing I cannot verify at this time is whether or not I flipped the friction disk. I would be very surprised if I did that, however. There are people who say it worked for them, and so if mine doesn't work I must have done something wrong. But that is bad logic. If it works in one case, that doesn't prove that it should work in every case. My case (and yours, apparently) shows that sometimes it doesn't work like it *should*. I will find out in the first part of October exactly what is the reason for mine not working. But I have to say, there are no parts left in the system that could be "worn or broken". All of the so called band-aid measures I tried were after finding that the clutch would not work. I tried them all one at a time, to test their effect.
92awddsm, I notice that you have a Fidanza flywheel with your ACT2600 instead of the ACT Streetlite flywheel that I have. Maybe that is what makes yours work, and mine seems to need extra adjustment.

 

[TalonJohn94]

Yeah, I would almost be willing to bet that if I replaced the ACT stuff with OEM again, I wouldn't need to shim the pivot ball OR modify the C-clip - the ACT clutch demands more pressure, etc.

Good luck.

Let me know.

 

[my_precious]

I say AMS all the way. let them deal with it, its only a couple months. you have another car right? (my car gives me problems and its my only car hehe)