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2G 1g CAS with Kiggly Crank Trigger

Posted by snapz, May 16, 2011

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  1. bpk1337

    bpk1337 Proven Member

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    But why..
     
  2. Galipso

    Galipso Proven Member

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    1gCASwire harness.png
    Tell me if im wrong, but this is what i got from reading this thread. Im a visual learner so i thought i'd re-do this diagram to help myself and anyone else installing a Kiggly Crank Trigger Sensor on their 6 bolt.

    My impression is that you can still install a 1G Cam Angle Sensor, but a stock 2G is recommended.

    Someone please let me know if this diagram is wrong and i'll correct it. Otherwise, i hope this helps others.
     

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  3. NHerron

    NHerron Proven Member

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    Yes that is correct.
    A 97'+ CAM sensor bolts to a 1G head no modification according to RRE:
    http://www.roadraceengineering.com/1g2gheadswaptechtip.htm

    So on a 97+ car (threaded cam), you could slap in 6 bolt with Kiggly crank sensor and be plug and play.

    Or use a 1g sensor, but make the harness (1g sensor and 2g harness connectors no go), and exclude the crank signal output. And use the Kiggly crank sensor.

    I don't clearly understand why 2g sensor is better than the 1g. But bastarddsm is pretty firm on the 2g sensor so its likely true. Certainly looks nicer than 1g...
     

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  4. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

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    It's because a 1g sensor doesn't output the right waveforms for a 2g. It works but it isn't right. If you spend the money on the kiggly crank trigger why wouldn't you do everything to make it as good as possible.
     

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  5. bpk1337

    bpk1337 Proven Member

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    I could be reading them wrong, but according to that link you post from RRE it looks like the wave-forms would line up fine though? Where are you getting this information Bastard?
     
  6. NHerron

    NHerron Proven Member

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    Maybe a quick waveform for dummies tutorial? I only know waveforms pertaining to pumps ie bad commutators etc.

    And to your last comment. You speak as if this 2g cam sensor should be common knowledge. I'm sure the info is out there, but on tuners, not a whole lot of explained evidence. Techy gurus are appreciated but they fall short sometimes, understandably, because most people don't get it and rather skip to the end result.

    Weeeell some don't care about the result, like me they want to know why what when where how, a hobby in its own.

    Really. That post warranted a like. Faaaaceeeboook.
     
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  7. Galipso

    Galipso Proven Member

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    Then why are black top CAS a hot commodity in the DSM world? Or is it only for 1G DSMs....? If i wasn't running a Kiggly, my understanding is that a black top CAS would be the next best thing, so wouldn't it still be OK to use in conjunction with both?

    I'm about a week away from firing up my motor and really would like to know (evidence) that a 1G CAS will not work in my 2G head with a Kiggly on my 1G block.

    I'm with NHerron, i don't understand waveforms. Further explanation would be appreciated. Also, couldn't this be something that ECMLink V3 could fix?
     

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  8. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

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    it's all right in the RRE link. The cam signal is wrong. The first picture is a 2g, second is a 1g. It will work and run, but it isn't right.

    I n the picture I attached the arrow points to the CAS waveform. See how they are not EXACTLY THE SAME? That's the problem. If you don't understand this, go find an osciliscope for dummies article.

    The 6 bolt CAS in a 2g causing the random misfire code, has been common knowledge since like 2002. It's nothing new, nor am I making this up. The Cam signal waveform isn't right and the ecu gets confused by it periodically. If you run the 2g cam sensor with the kiggly crank trigger you will have the best cam/crank signal for your car possible.

    As to your other questions, all 1G sensors output the same waveform. There is some debate to the accuracy of a black-top vs a silver top. A more correct term would be optical vs hall-effect, but I don't remember which is which. Either way everyone has an opinion, and it's just a rumor. There's no one in dsm land that has the ability to measure the accuracy differences between the too. I prefer the metal/silver top one because I feel its more resistant to interference, but it probably doesn't matter.
     

    Attached Files:

    • cas.PNG
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  9. Galipso

    Galipso Proven Member

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    it makes sense to me that a 2G CAS should stay on the 2G head, but if that's the best case, then why does RRE and Magnus still suggest doing the 1G CAS even after proving these waveforms having inaccurate readings?
    http://www.roadraceengineering.com/1gcasin2g.htm
    They have an entire page and modded wire harness for this application, but never once say they the 2G CAS should stay in the car.
    RRE "If you have a 2G head, remove your 97-99 CAS...Align the marks on the 1G CAS to TDC and Install"

    Bastard, i totally believe you and really appreciate your knowledge and input, but where's the evidence saying a 2G CAS is safe to use? Where's the wave forms on that?

    http://magnusmotorsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/1gina2g.pdf article from Magnus, still suggests a 1G CAS
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2018

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  10. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

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    Because it worked, and there wasn't a better solution at the time.

    If you look at the original RRE 6bolt in a 2g, they have you use a 7bolt front cover so you can have a crank trigger, and then the 7bolt cam sensor.
     

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  11. motomattx

    motomattx Proven Member

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    Keep in mind guys that this was before Kiggly had a 6 bolt swap adapter available.
     

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  12. bpk1337

    bpk1337 Proven Member

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    Bastard, I believe you might be miss understanding what RRE is depicting by posting those two graphs. The graph on the bottom is showing that the wave form is different for the 95-96 Eclipse because of the cam signal for those years are inverted. This is fixed by switching the injector trigger wires. They explain this if you click on the link here:
    http://www.roadraceengineering.com/1gcasin2g95-96M2.htm

    Attached is an email I had with Kiggly, although I'm not sure what Kevin means when he says, "The only thing you would want to confirm is if you need to offset everything up or down slightly if the angle is slightly different."

    2.jpg
    1.jpg
    Email.jpg
     
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  13. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

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    Ugg. No. I understand this perfectly. How is swapping injector wires going to change the output of the 1G CAS? It's not. The signal might be inverted, but it's still not the same signal. You can look at the trace and see the pulse widths are not the same. That's what counts. The ecu looks for the cam signal to be high at a certain point. If it isn't it thinks something is wrong and gives the random misfire.

    This isn't rocket science. Running a 1g cas on a 2g will cause the random misfire, because the 1g cam signal isn't the same. You can turn it off with link or what ever, but that still doesn't make it right.

    You guys also realize that those articles were written in 2002, when all this was still black magic? Noone understood how all this sh** worked, and anyone that had a decent idea was an "expert"...
     
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  14. bpk1337

    bpk1337 Proven Member

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    Bastard, can you tell me if I'm reading this incorrectly then. I'm not trying to start a heated argument, and I just want to figure this out.. From what I am understanding, the top graph on that webpage is showing that the #1 injector signal pulse occurs every 6.4 boxes in time. To me, #1 looks like it is in relation to every 5th waveform of the crank pause (the 2nd line in the first graph), and the size of that pulse seems to be identical every other wave IE Short, long, short,long etc..

    Waveforms.jpg


    The 2nd graph is showing us that the #1 injector signal is off for the 95-96 ECU, which would cause the random miss-fire code, and that injector pulse #2 is closer to the stock signal in the 4th pictured graph.
     
  15. NHerron

    NHerron Proven Member

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    Really? News to me. How do you explain the misfire issue going away when the MAS baro input is tweaked? ECMlink or RRE I don't remember, mentions this mod when using a 1g. How does the ECU check for mirfire, is it continuous or just a test. What does it look for? I don't recall reading about someone having misfire issues with 1g CAM and Kiggly crank. Or maybe the 2g ECU accounts for the big rubber band between the two stock sensors. Maybe two totally different misfire algorithms. And when the 1g cam and crank is used, there is no rubber band. Haven't seen that asked before but maybe that's just too simple and common knowledge. Certainly the "confused periodically" (when the sensor outputs are always consistently and exactly wrong) hypo is the correct. Because "confused periodically" can be proven by what exactly. How would one replicate the condition, on demand. How do people make a sh**load of power the wrong way, and this info not be plastered everywhere on tuners. Oh right, because it's not rocket science and everyone knows, like the sky is blue to a simpleton. See I can be annoying too.
     

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  16. bpk1337

    bpk1337 Proven Member

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    If you look Here: http://www.roadraceengineering.com/1gcasin2g.htm at the 3rd bullet under "The Bad" RRE states the following:
    • Reported problems range from none, to annoying, so be aware. At the time of this writing the most common glitch is an increase in CEL's. The most likely CEL to occur is "Random Misfire" Possible problem sources for phantom misfires are intermittent electrical connections and/or noise in an unshielded wiring harness, harmonic vibrations in the timing belt system, or a bad CAS. OBD-II 2G ECU's were designed to detect misfires from a sensor reading directly from the crank. A simulated crank signal from the CAS may not be accurate enough for some ECU's.
    So, from that logic it would seem like we would have no problems with the crank signal if we are to use it with the Kiggly unit. The only thing we would need to worry about is to make sure that the cam signal is in time. Anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
     
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  17. Galipso

    Galipso Proven Member

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    Does anybody here actually have this installed in their car right now?:
    1G block w/ a Kiggly, 2G head, 1G CAS

    Please provide feedback of how your car runs. In my understanding, the car will still run fine and all this is just internet squabble.

    Has anyone ever blown their motor because they had this set up? I think Kiggly, RRE and Magnus would be in big trouble for making these suggestions if it happened. Long story short is, ECU might see a misfire, but not actually experience one, turn off code with DSMLink, be on your way...

    Im pretty sure if a rocket scientist viewed this thread, he'd be just as lost as anyone else. So no, its not rocket science, its worse than that. It's black magic
     
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  18. 19Eclipse90

    19Eclipse90 DSM Wiseman

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    I like you Nate so I'll go ahead and address this. I agree with him, that's why I "Like" it. I am of the opinion that one should use a 2G cam sensor with a Kiggly crank sensor. As we sorted through and found out on page 1, though, the 1G CAS is usable with the Kiggly sensor, no problem. You feel this is the best approach and that's fine. Matter of fact, you make a good point about the Kiggly sensor failing and being SOL with only a 2G CAS; I may have to reconsider. In any case, I think we can both agree that the 1G CAS by itself is insufficient more often than not and that gamble just isn't worth the hassle. I'll also say that, in my opinion, eliminating the random misfire check in Link or the potentiometer added to the barometric pressure sensor wire are masking the problem, not solving the issue that has the 1G CAS at the root.

    This is correct. Camshaft position sensor output wave patterns are pretty much the same for all years aside from the '95-'96 being inverted and having a slightly longer duration than (at least) the '97+. This is from the '97 FSM and just reiterates what is already listed in the Magnus article.
    P0300.jpg
     
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  19. NHerron

    NHerron Proven Member

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    Hey Brian, I didn't put the name to the... other name. How's it going.
    My deal with all of this is 2g vs 1g CAM output. Why is 2g better. Aside from the scary waveform knowledge, what does this really effect.
    Oh and I'm not one to prefer 1g vs 2g. I'm just curious about setting the record straight. I only used 1g sensor because the Kiggly has a good chance of failing. I got it basically free because they broke a part of the sensor, so I 'fixed' it, but not sure if it will last.

    I didn't care for bastards accusation that someone using 1g is doing it wrong and isn't as good as possible, like they are fully educated on their decision to be a cheapskate. Based on waveform pictures.

    It appears to me he isn't aware that the 1g sensor is not the problem for misfire codes. It is the placement of the sensor, specifically the crank sensor. OBD2 uses the crank signal for its misfire monitor. DIRECTLY FROM THE CRANK. When using the 1g, it is not a true crank sensor. That is the WHOLE simple deal with the misfire BS. Like, can we move along now. And then the rocket science card is pulled out. Yet nothing useful from alllllll his posts has come to light. And a mod liked his post. Just got me a little annoyed.
     
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  20. kiggly

    kiggly Supporting Vendor

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    Our crank trigger sensor will work fine with either a 1g CAS or a late 2g CAS on a 1g or late 2g ECU. The 95-96 ECU needs the changes as-described in the RRE writeup if you are running a late 2g or 1g CAS. Alternatively, you can fix the invert CAS issue with the invert CAS option in ECMLink (if you have it). There isn't really an advantage to the 1g CAS vs the late 2g CAS. The latter looks a little better, but both are totally valid signals.

    The misfire code should not be a problem with our sensor. As stated previously, the problem with the 1g CAS and misfire code on a 2g is due to its location and all the torsional 'activity' the cam sees from opening the valves and timing belt loads / whip.

    Oh, we'll have the updated V2 crank trigger available as a 2-tooth soon, just waiting on some final feedback of parts out in testing.

    Thanks,
    Kevin
     

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  21. bpk1337

    bpk1337 Proven Member

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    Kevin,

    Thanks for the response. When using the 1g cas with your sensor, does one need to set base timing with a timing light before installing the kiggly unit? Or can we just wire it up and go?
     
  22. NHerron

    NHerron Proven Member

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    Good question..
     

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  23. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

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    While it will run, I don't know that I consider it a valid signal. The duration and phase of the cam signals are all different, albeit, not very much, but they are different. The early 2g signal isn't just inverted it's wildly different. Without a good understanding of exactly how it is using the cam signal, I don't think it's wise to suggest that there is no advantage to using the correct cam signal. If the ECU is using the CAM signal for error checking I would suspect there could be problems.

    I'm sure ECMLink could comment on the early 2G stuff, but I don't know about the late ecu's.

    How is the crank immune to this? ATI has quite a bit of published images showing as much as 10* peak-peak crank twist at the damper. Surely that would be enough to double trigger it? What is the max frequency of the sensor you are using?

    Have you done any experimental work on this? I'm curious to know what cam oscilations are peak to peak.

    As far as I can tell from my work on the 1g ecu code, if it were truly torsional oscillation of the cam causing the random misfire we'd see this this with real misfire issues on the 1g. The crank sensor drives an interrupt routine, and I don't believe there is much to detect or throw out a bad signal.

    With 2 pulses per rev, the only way you'd detect any funny business is if it double triggered, and that would cause problems with a 1g ECU, and not just a CEL. Or if the cam signal isn't right. AFIK, the only person who would actually know what the 2g ecu is looking for to detect misfires is ECMlink.

    You will absolutely need to make sure the cam signal is properly phased with the crank signal.

    Ok so you wrote the code in the ecu and you know exactly what conditions trigger this? Or are you just going off the tech manual, which had a dumbed down version of what's going so a tech can use it to diagnose a STOCK VEHICLE.

    I'm sorry dude but if you think I'm going to condense years of education, work on the 1g ECU code, Work Designing my own ECU, Work on measuring angular velocity/acceleration/position at high accuracy into one post, your sorely mistaken.

    The fact of the matter is the signals from a 1g, early 2g, and late 2g are not the same. A late 2g is expecting the signal from a late 2g sensor. Anything else, isn't the as good, it might be a small increment, but it's still not as good. The methods to use the 6 bolt trigger were devised when we had no other way, and it works, but if you can give the ecu the exact signal it's expecting, why wouldn't you?

    I don't care for you putting words in my mouth. I said if you can use the right sensor use it. If your running the kiggly crank trigger you have no reason to not use the right sensor.

    The oscilloscope doesn't lie, by the way.
     
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  24. bpk1337

    bpk1337 Proven Member

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    You're right the oscilloscope does not lie. Would you please post up some evidence supporting your claim? The oscilloscope pictures from RRE seem to prove the opposite of what you are stating. You never responded to my post where the graph is traced out showing the signals pulses are the same, and that they line up with the injector pulse. This is to help anyone in the future that wants to purchase a Kiggly unit. Please keep this factual and unbiased. My point is, I'm seeing a whole lot of arguing, and not much proof.
     
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  25. NHerron

    NHerron Proven Member

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    How about insinuate.

    Not buying it. This has been going on for years, if the signals are different enough, they'd make an impact and the DSM world would be all over it. Surely you aren't the only wizard. The signals are different, but you don't know why. You just keep saying they are and should use the correct sensor. I can agree. However, if I was as knowledable, I'd have it figured out. You could make a huge difference but no, you just settle on *they're different, so use correct sensor*.
     

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