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2G 1g CAS with Kiggly Crank Trigger

bastarddsm

Proven Member
5,342
1,146
Aug 26, 2003
Mendota, Illinois
I know why and I've said it many many times. The duration and phase of the cam signal is different. I don't have a 2g cas to look at, but you can look at the plots on RRE's page and count the hash marks. They are different remember that each hash is 50ms, (.050s) and the ecu knows whats going on down to a fraction of a microsecond on the order of (.00000006s) The ecu can tell there is a difference.

Here's what I can show you, a 97 Galant CAS diagram, and a 1G cas diagram. It's not a 2g dsm, but I'd imagine it's close enough. If you can't tell the difference, I can't help you. I'd get the one for the 2g's but I don't have a tech manual handy and all the links I can find are for scribd.

BPK, I think you are getting caught up by the injector signals. Don't pay any attention to those as we don't use them to generate Cam/crank signals. Also you need to pay attention to the entire length of the pulse. Looking at only the leading edge tells only half the story. I'm 99% sure we don't anything with the rising edge. The ecu listens for it to be high in a certain window.

I still stand by my original statement. If you run the kiggly trigger you can use what ever, but it would be better if you ran the correct cam signal for your ecu.

How about insinuate.

Not buying it. This has been going on for years, if the signals are different enough, they'd make an impact and the DSM world would be all over it. Surely you aren't the only wizard. The signals are different, but you don't know why. You just keep saying they are and should use the correct sensor. I can agree. However, if I was as knowledable, I'd have it figured out. You could make a huge difference but no, you just settle on *they're different, so use correct sensor*.

Obviously they do make an impact or we would have options like "invert cas" or "disable random misfire"

As far as showing why, I have. I don't know what more you want from me. The start and end of each "high" in the cam signal is different for all 3.
 

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Galipso

Supporting Member
215
17
Aug 23, 2011
Flint, Michigan
Our crank trigger sensor will work fine with either a 1g CAS or a late 2g CAS on a 1g or late 2g ECU....There isn't really an advantage to the 1g CAS vs the late 2g CAS. The latter looks a little better, but both are totally valid signals.
I still stand by my original statement. If you run the kiggly trigger you can use what ever, but it would be better if you ran the correct cam signal for your ecu.

So we are in agreement here after all. 1G or late 2G CAS can be used. Stop making this more complicated than it really is.

What bastard is saying is no different than any other part swap. The ECU looks for OEM signals to it, but after market parts send data too. Not the OEM data the ECU is programmed with, but it still works...

When doing a custom build, your ECU will never get the exact OEM data it's looking for ever again, that's why we piggy back, re-chip, fake a signal, delete codes, delete emissions, etc...
 

NHerron

Proven Member
2,780
54
Nov 5, 2011
Missoula, Montana
By impact, I meant concerning the signals, after getting past the misfire and inverted signals business. That's the easy part. I am fully aware of the common issues. But those arent really signal quality anyway. 2g Misfire doesn't use the cam signal and the inverted part is simply an inverted signal issue, easy fix.

But I was unaware that the cam signal was cam specific. So when aftermarket cams are used, does all this go out the window. Is the signal basically built around a specific cam?

If that is the case, then wouldn't using a 1g be the way to go with aftermatket cams? That way one may measure cam and crank timing events to verify cam specs then match up the new cam timing to cam output signal? This is all with a fixed sensor at crank in mind.
 

clutch1

Probationary Member
1
0
Sep 30, 2015
Mosinee, Wisconsin
Very interesting thread, signed up specifically to look into this sort of thing for a friend.
I'm doing the timing belt on his '95 Talon w/ 4G63. The previous owner swapped on a 1g CAS, so we found out the hard way that that inverts the plug wiring some time ago. Upon removing all the bits to get to the timing belt I found that when I rotated everything to line up the timing marks I noticed that the exhaust cam's mark is right on the money, pointing toward the intake cam gear. However the intake cam gear's mark is pointing 180* off, straight back. Oil pump, crank, balance shaft.. all the other marks are on point. Just going to continue on my way, slip the old belt off, new one on, nothing exciting, but it does leave me wondering, what the heck caused this in the vehicle's life time? Is this a byproduct of doing something weird like putting a 1g cam gear on it or something? Or did someone take the wheel off the cam and rotate it 180*? Makes me wonder what other stuff we'll find on the engine.
Also, from what I gathered reading this thread, this 1g cam sensor swap explains the reason the cam sensor and crank sensor under the timing cover are both unplugged, yes? The found the 2g cam sensor with a split harness plugged into both of the plugs that appear to normally plug into the 2 factory sensor pigtails.

Apologies if this stuff is rudimentary. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about DSMs.. a ton of my friends picked them up lately, and my roommate has 3 now! I'm usually the one who has to wrench on them so I want to be in the know (lord knows they keep me busy).
 

bastarddsm

Proven Member
5,342
1,146
Aug 26, 2003
Mendota, Illinois
But those arent really signal quality anyway. 2g Misfire doesn't use the cam signal and the inverted part is simply an inverted signal issue, easy fix.
How do you know this? All the tech manual says is "bad crank signal" a cam an crank signal out of phase certainly qualifies for that.
But I was unaware that the cam signal was cam specific. So when aftermarket cams are used, does all this go out the window. Is the signal basically built around a specific cam?

No it has nothing to do with the actual cam. The cam signal is specific to the CAS and ECU. It's used to determine what cylinder is at TDC.
If that is the case, then wouldn't using a 1g be the way to go with aftermatket cams? That way one may measure cam and crank timing events to verify cam specs then match up the new cam timing to cam output signal? This is all with a fixed sensor at crank in mind.

Nope, the actual cam has nothing to do with it.
 

kiggly

Supporting Vendor
308
119
Feb 17, 2003
Ann Arbor, Michigan
So, from that logic it would seem like we would have no problems with the crank signal if we are to use it with the Kiggly unit. The only thing we would need to worry about is to m

Kevin,

Thanks for the response. When using the 1g cas with your sensor, does one need to set base timing with a timing light before installing the kiggly unit? Or can we just wire it up and go?

The base timing is set only by the crank signal, which is no longer adjustable with our sensor. This is set to the OEM angles and there is no need to set anything with a timing light, just bolt-up, wire-up, and drive. The cam sensor is just used to figure out which engine cycle / sequence is occurring, the crank signal is then used for all critical timing events like spark and fuel injection.

Thanks,
Kevin
 

NHerron

Proven Member
2,780
54
Nov 5, 2011
Missoula, Montana
The base timing is set only by the crank signal, which is no longer adjustable with our sensor. This is set to the OEM angles and there is no need to set anything with a timing light, just bolt-up, wire-up, and drive. The cam sensor is just used to figure out which engine cycle / sequence is occurring, the crank signal is then used for all critical timing events like spark and fuel injection.

Thanks,
Kevin


I just got my car running. 1g block and head. Kiggly crank sensor, 1g cas, just not using crank signal from the 1g cas.

As suspected, the spark timing is right on and is not effected by the 1g cas being adjusted.

However, if I move the cas, it is still effecting the engine. If I move it too far back, the engine will die.

So, I believe it is still required to adjust cas, specifically the cam signal output.

I'm going to temporarily hook up the crank signal from the 1g cas to the computer, and set the timing. That way, the cam signal is in correct time with the kiggly crank, once I hook it back up.
 

kiggly

Supporting Vendor
308
119
Feb 17, 2003
Ann Arbor, Michigan
You could be getting into an edge-swap situation. I just reviewed the 1g signals and they have 10deg of overlap each way in OEM trim. I didn't think the CAS normally had this much adjustment, but if things are a bit off from surfacing the head, random parts, etc - it may have this much to be off. You could look at the OEM signal to see how close things should be and then check voltage at the output pins to see the sequence seems approximately lined up. Your most accurate move would be to set the CAS with it running the car, but I doubt that is necessary. If you can make it die as far back as possible and you know it has a 10deg window each direction, you can approximate 5deg of movement on the CAS with an angle finder (i.e. - a phone) to get it centered up. The fixed 2g CAS options should not have any issues, just make sure you're using the right CAS for your ECU.
 

godschylde777

Proven Member
631
250
Jun 3, 2009
houston, Texas
You could be getting into an edge-swap situation. I just reviewed the 1g signals and they have 10deg of overlap each way in OEM trim. I didn't think the CAS normally had this much adjustment, but if things are a bit off from surfacing the head, random parts, etc - it may have this much to be off. You could look at the OEM signal to see how close things should be and then check voltage at the output pins to see the sequence seems approximately lined up. Your most accurate move would be to set the CAS with it running the car, but I doubt that is necessary. If you can make it die as far back as possible and you know it has a 10deg window each direction, you can approximate 5deg of movement on the CAS with an angle finder (i.e. - a phone) to get it centered up. The fixed 2g CAS options should not have any issues, just make sure you're using the right CAS for your ECU.
Hello, I know this is old, but I have a question for you. I have your v1 2 tooth crank angle sensor on a 6b swapped into a 2g. I wired it leaving the yellow wire off the cas sensor. For some reason, randomly at Idle the timing is dropping to 0. It seems to do it only at Idle. Any thoughts?
 

kiggly

Supporting Vendor
308
119
Feb 17, 2003
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Hello, I know this is old, but I have a question for you. I have your v1 2 tooth crank angle sensor on a 6b swapped into a 2g. I wired it leaving the yellow wire off the cas sensor. For some reason, randomly at Idle the timing is dropping to 0. It seems to do it only at Idle. Any thoughts?

Are you seeing this with a timing light or in a data log? The ecu tweaks idle rpm using timing. Is the timing check wire grounded? It’s been a long time since I’ve touched one, but I believe it is on the firewall.
 

godschylde777

Proven Member
631
250
Jun 3, 2009
houston, Texas
Are you seeing this with a timing light or in a data log? The ecu tweaks idle rpm using timing. Is the timing check wire grounded? It’s been a long time since I’ve touched one, but I believe it is on the firewall.
Lol I was trying to find a log.
It is so random at idle. I am switching back to a 2g cas.
 

twicks69

Supporting Vendor
3,790
888
Mar 12, 2004
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Post up an image of your timing map. Isn't this on AEM V1 or is it on DSMLink V3? Did you lock timing or do a test with a baseline timing map with the same value to confirm?

Instead of locking the timing at 5° BTDC with the lock-timing function in ECMLink, I suggest setting your entire timing table to 5° BTDC and checking again with the timing light while free-revving.

Also, do you have any other accessory tables that may be affecting ignition timing, such as fluid/air temperatures, engine knock, O2 feedback, etc?
 
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