ECMlink 1G 4k *knock*, lift then stab to WOT then fine?

[92Turbski]

Hey, all.

Maybe you guys have an idea what could be causing this random knock issue I'm having.

I don't think it's the tuning (see posted video with wideband way rich at 10.8 and AFR Est at 11.8). I've been working with Kevin Jewer for a good while on the tune. I've even dialed the tune back here lately to more gasoline and less E85 and am using the much less aggressive ECM link evo8 min/max octane maps and still having the same issue.

I'll downshift into 2nd and mash it, and almost like clockwork, around 4k the CEL lights up, I'll get out of it, stab it back to WFO, and *most* of the time it'll pull clean to redline. 3rd gear almost never does it.

The only thing I can think of is that I have a noisy HLA when she first starts cold and then quickly goes away. Otherwise I don't hear or feel any signs of knock, but that's not to say it's real. I always lift.

I appreciate your time in advance!

I'll head over and update the build thread.

Rob

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[danl]

Can you post the log? Too many lines for me to sift through.

What is your timing advance when you reach boost threshold? With the same exact timing and e85 do you have the same issue?

How are your motor mounts? Any loose exhaust parts? What is the condition of the knock sensor? What are your dsmlink knock sensor settings set to?

 

[We're on Boost]

It sure looks wrong to me. Just before the knock started, the timing was 10deg, 4162rpm, I don't see load factor but boost was only 5.4psi, 31% ethanol, IAT only 91 degrees, wideband ok, everything else looks ok, then in the next instant all of a sudden it's 6 and 7 degrees of knock retard. Should have been no knock.
If this problem then goes away after a little more running then maybe it is the HLAs like you said.
Wait though, the log is at 1905 seconds in your video - that's more than a little more running. Hmm.

Just for reference here's a shot of mine at pretty close conditions.
So I'm at the rpm here that is just before yours started knocking, but if you look at mine to the right of the line you can see no knock happens later. If there was it would be a short little trapezoid with less than 1 deg of knock retard.
I only know my knock sensor is working because I sometimes get about 1 degree of knock retard with 15-20% throttle at around 3,000 rpm.
BTW don't pay any attention to my IAT or my WB. I don't have an IAT sensor and my WB analog output doesn't work.

It was kinda fun poking through your video. Good job making that.

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[92Turbski]

Can you post the log? Too many lines for me to sift through.

What is your timing advance when you reach boost threshold? With the same exact timing and e85 do you have the same issue?

How are your motor mounts? Any loose exhaust parts? What is the condition of the knock sensor? What are your dsmlink knock sensor settings set to?

I'll get a log posted tomorrow for ya. I appreciate taking a look.

Advance on max octane for 14 psi at 4500 is at 25, which it's nowhere near. Sorry, I'm not the most proficient with ECM link, so I hope this helps.

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Same exact issues with 70%+ ethanol. Seems mechanical. Or electrical glitch like. Brand new NTK sensor ID0170 (99-05 Miata sensor) that I grafted onto the stock pigtail with solder and heatshrink. Acts the same as the ebay one that was on there previously.
Sensor settings are on at 3500RPM and 30% TPS.
New torque solutions mounts all around, exhaust is all tight, zero leaks. I need to check the OD of the rear mount bolt...I seem to remember it being undersized by a couple of mm, but have a new OE one to replace it.

The drivetrain was completely rebuilt by TRE and trans by bastarddsm. The clatter/cross talk on decel between the rear diff and the T case is extraordinary when in gear. It's silent when you pop it out of gear and rolling. Especially with the aluminum driveshaft. I always thought it was excessive.
I try to go over everything with a fine tooth comb.

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[92Turbski]

It sure looks wrong to me. Just before the knock started, the timing was 10deg, 4162rpm, I don't see load factor but boost was only 5.4psi, 31% ethanol, IAT only 91 degrees, wideband ok, everything else looks ok, then in the next instant all of a sudden it's 6 and 7 degrees of knock retard. Should have been no knock.
If this problem then goes away after a little more running then maybe it is the HLAs like you said.
Wait though, the log is at 1905 seconds in your video - that's more than a little more running. Hmm.

Just for reference here's a shot of mine at pretty close conditions.
So I'm at the rpm here that is just before yours started knocking, but if you look at mine to the right of the line you can see no knock happens later. If there was it would be a short little trapezoid with less than 1 deg of knock retard.
I only know my knock sensor is working because I sometimes get about 1 degree of knock retard with 15-20% throttle at around 3,000 rpm.
BTW don't pay any attention to my IAT or my WB. I don't have an IAT sensor and my WB analog output doesn't work.

It was kinda fun poking through your video. Good job making that.

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Exactly! Very strange. Doesn't do it every single time, either. It doesn't make sense. Yeah, I always make sure she's warm before I start getting into the boost.

I should've posted here sooner. I appreciate you guys helping voice this one out loud and stir up some things to think about, or look into.

 

[We're on Boost]

Advance on max octane for 14 psi at 4500 is at 25, which it's nowhere near. Sorry, I'm not the most proficient with ECM link, so I hope this helps.

On your chart, where I see 25 degrees of advance in the 4500 rpm column, is at 1.0 load factor. That's not 14psi of boost. That's like no boost. 0 psi of boost and no vacuum either, just atmospheric, or around there.
That's ok though, I'm not saying your timing chart is wrong. In fact your timing on the 1.2 load factor line is about the same as mine is in my low octane map at 1.2 load factor, (TimingMinOct). And at 31% ethanol you'd probably be more on that one then on TimingMaxOct.
You should definitely show Load Factor in your logs.

That's a nice looking engine bay. And your custom oil pan looks a lot like a Moroso. Oil temp in the front plug looks like. Good!

 

[92Turbski]

Can you post the log? Too many lines for me to sift through.

What is your timing advance when you reach boost threshold? With the same exact timing and e85 do you have the same issue?

How are your motor mounts? Any loose exhaust parts? What is the condition of the knock sensor? What are your dsmlink knock sensor settings set to?

Hey, Danl. Here is a log with several back to back hits where right around that 3600-4k mark it'll light up with more than 3 degrees. Sometimes I'll get out of it and right back into it and it'll pull clean to redline. Then, I'll literally back it up with 2 super clean 3rd gear 2k-7k blasts. Very strange.

 

[92Turbski]

On your chart, where I see 25 degrees of advance in the 4500 rpm column, is at 1.0 load factor. That's not 14psi of boost. That's like no boost. 0 psi of boost and no vacuum either, just atmospheric, or around there.
That's ok though, I'm not saying your timing chart is wrong. In fact your timing on the 1.2 load factor line is about the same as mine is in my low octane map at 1.2 load factor, (TimingMinOct). And at 31% ethanol you'd probably be more on that one then on TimingMaxOct.
You should definitely show Load Factor in your logs.

That's a nice looking engine bay. And your custom oil pan looks a lot like a Moroso. Oil temp in the front plug looks like. Good!

D'oh! here I was thinking that was measured in bar on the side. .
Ok, so Stoich, or 14.7. Thank you for the clarification! Greater the engine load, greater the #. Makes sense.

I believe the load factor is in the log, I just turned a bunch of things off in the display in that particular vid.

Thank you, I appreciate it! Ch-oroso, Chinese Moroso, I believe, hahaha. It is very effective with all the same features to help with oil starvation on long sustained corners. The goal is to auto cross and maybe a little road course. She needs some Feal coilovers!

 

[bastarddsm]

What flywheel and clutch did you use? I don't 100% remember what trans you got from me. Was it a welded diff or 2 spider? These things always have quite a bit of driveline noise. Things that will exacerbate it: Lightweight flywheel, aluminum driveshaft, performance clutch, worn tcase/outputshaft splines, worn rear diff.

As for knock, it sounds like PK to me. IDK how ecm link does it, but on the stock code there is sort of a throttle sensative accumulator. Meaning at WOT that it takes a while for knock counts to wind down to 0 even after the knock is gone.

For the most part if you are on a significant portion of E, like 50% on up, and you are not doing anything wild you can just 100% ignore the KS.

 

[92Turbski]

What flywheel and clutch did you use? I don't 100% remember what trans you got from me. Was it a welded diff or 2 spider? These things always have quite a bit of driveline noise. Things that will exacerbate it: Lightweight flywheel, aluminum driveshaft, performance clutch, worn tcase/outputshaft splines, worn rear diff.

As for knock, it sounds like PK to me. IDK how ecm link does it, but on the stock code there is sort of a throttle sensative accumulator. Meaning at WOT that it takes a while for knock counts to wind down to 0 even after the knock is gone.

For the most part if you are on a significant portion of E, like 50% on up, and you are not doing anything wild you can just 100% ignore the KS.

Whats up, Kurt!
OE flywheel, ACT 2600 with solid street disc. It was the TMZ746 that was upgraded with all of your goodies. 2 spider diff.
Right on man. That all makes sense.

Right, it sure as hell seems to be. I'd never heard any spark knock or felt anything, at all. You're right, it does take a while to wind down to 0, for sure!

Yeah?! It's mainly a hotrod street car with some canyon carving and future Autox here and there. Although I'd like to do some max effort with it next year.
Man, that's tempting to just 100% ignore it, albeit a little scary. Haha. Maybe I'll bump the setting to 5k and 40% throttle and see if that helps, first, before going whole hog on er.

 

[bastarddsm]

Whats up, Kurt!
OE flywheel, ACT 2600 with solid street disc. It was the TMZ746 that was upgraded with all of your goodies. 2 spider diff.
Right on man. That all makes sense.

Right, it sure as hell seems to be. I'd never heard any spark knock or felt anything, at all. You're right, it does take a while to wind down to 0, for sure!

Yeah?! It's mainly a hotrod street car with some canyon carving and future Autox here and there. Although I'd like to do some max effort with it next year.
Man, that's tempting to just 100% ignore it, albeit a little scary. Haha. Maybe I'll bump the setting to 5k and 40% throttle and see if that helps, first, before going whole hog on er.

Usually the heavy OE flywheel tames the noise down quite a bit. So the whole deal is to remember the engine doesn't turn smoothly it ratchets back and forth a tiny amount. it has maybe 1* of oscilation on the "steady" motion we think it has. That oscilation frequency is dependent on the mass of the flywheel, crank, rods, pistons, damper. the damper is there to absorb that and keep it to a minimum. The heavy flywheel helps keep it to a min - well sortof - it tries to rotate at as close to a constant speed as possible. Heaver has more does a better job of it. Any way all the parts of the driveline get a bit of that oscilations into them. And all the parts of the driveline have thier own "frequency" and if they match up, shit makes a lot of noise chattering, as it all adds up. Think of jumping on trampoline with a partner, time it right and you fly high. Then the aluminum driveshaft is just a loudspeaker in the whole system. The damped hub clutch discs tame it some, but the performance discs have such tough springs they don't do much damping at cruise and decel levels of torque. Aftermarket urethane bushings will transmit more noise as well. Basically everything you do for performance makes for more NVH.

you put a light clutch likea QM twin in it, and it sounds like the whole drivetrain is gonna fall out.

As for your setup and tuning. I advise picking a fuel and running it. At hot street levels E50 acts the same as E85 as far as timing and knock for IME. Honestly if you have a good NB, you can tune it on say like E70, and it'll be a tocuh lean at 85, and a little fat on 50, but be just fine over the range of expected E values of pump E. All that hinges on not having a FFS. As for running blends and trying to do it yourself. Don't do that. It's just a hassle and too confusing if you are just starting out. As far as I'm concerned with E>50% it won't knock as long as your AFR is inline 11-13 on gas scale, and timing is teens at peak torque and maybe up to 20 at high rpm. Again assuming you are just a hot street setup, reasonable intercooler, not trying to run 50psi or something crazy. Just no need for KS on ethanol. If you get a really bad tank, it ought to run fat as hell and alert you to somethings up instead of keeping your foot in it. The KS was there to keep them alive when a brain dead owner would put 87oct in them and then try to do top speed runs and shit like that.

For pump gas I'd pick a decent 91 or something, be conservative on timing watching the plugs and call it good and still probably turn the KS off anymore. I spent years f***ing with PK and shit. Then when I went stand alone I was worried about no KS, and well that was in 2017, and I ain't blown it up yet, and it's like 800hp.

it's over 500HP on 87oct. I'm sure it rattles some, but it's a brick shithouse bottom end. A little rattle at 500hp probably ain't gonna hurt it. I also don't make top speed runs with it either. Limit it to 1/8mi passes on 87.

I usually don't have much to say about tuning stuff as a bunch of guys with non running cars will come out of the wood work with all sorts of random shit.

 

[We're on Boost]

D'oh! here I was thinking that was measured in bar on the side. .
Ok, so Stoich, or 14.7. Thank you for the clarification! Greater the engine load, greater the #. Makes sense.

Wait, just to be clear, AFR is not in this TimingMaxOct chart.
The column and row headings are RPM and Load Factor.
Load Factor is not AFR. Load Factor is a number that is not measured directly. It is calculated by ECMlink.

Also to be more clear about the log shot I showed in post #3, my timing at that instant was 18 degrees, but my timing does go down rapidly to the right of there as boost comes up. Over the next 400 rpm or so it goes down to 10 degrees. But it doesn't go below 10 degrees. Then it comes back up at high RPM.

 

[danl]

Hey, Danl. Here is a log with several back to back hits where right around that 3600-4k mark it'll light up with more than 3 degrees. Sometimes I'll get out of it and right back into it and it'll pull clean to redline. Then, I'll literally back it up with 2 super clean 3rd gear 2k-7k blasts. Very strange.

You have 70% ethanol, it won't knock due to too much timing. The one thing I could suggest is to add fuel as you are transitioning into boost. You are close to 13:1 AFR and 10psi boost as it is ramping into full boost. I would make the highlighted area in the attached image all 11.0 and see if that helps, though it might not. I've never ran E85 that lean since it still makes great power down at 0.71 lambda.

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The other thing that I see that your IAT's were climbing 30 degrees in a single gear pull. Adding fuel will help you out as E85 is a good at cooling off the air entering the engine.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Can't speak for everyone but I can say with authority I'm a guy with a non-running car that would LOVE to hear more tuning advice and tips, and promise not to argue or disagree about anything.

 

[92Turbski]

You have 70% ethanol, it won't knock due to too much timing. The one thing I could suggest is to add fuel as you are transitioning into boost. You are close to 13:1 AFR and 10psi boost as it is ramping into full boost. I would make the highlighted area in the attached image all 11.0 and see if that helps, though it might not. I've never ran E85 that lean since it still makes great power down at 0.71 lambda.

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The other thing that I see that your IAT's were climbing 30 degrees in a single gear pull. Adding fuel will help you out as E85 is a good at cooling off the air entering the engine.

Awesome, thank you for your insight. I will most definitely do this and probably run a couple more tanks of E85 through it before it gets too cold around here. Would you recommend going to pump 93 for the winter?

 

[danl]

I transition mine over to pump gas for the winter to help with starting as E85 does not start well when cold. You need to add a LOT more fuel during cranking to get it to start reliably. I also run a tank of pump gas with a bottle of fuel system cleaner that contains P.E.A to clean out the E85 goo that forms throughout the year. I like to keep my knock sensor working because when I put it back on gas it does tend to have real knock from time to time because my engine has a lot of compression.

 

[92Turbski]

Usually the heavy OE flywheel tames the noise down quite a bit. So the whole deal is to remember the engine doesn't turn smoothly it ratchets back and forth a tiny amount. it has maybe 1* of oscilation on the "steady" motion we think it has. That oscilation frequency is dependent on the mass of the flywheel, crank, rods, pistons, damper. the damper is there to absorb that and keep it to a minimum. The heavy flywheel helps keep it to a min - well sortof - it tries to rotate at as close to a constant speed as possible. Heaver has more does a better job of it. Any way all the parts of the driveline get a bit of that oscilations into them. And all the parts of the driveline have thier own "frequency" and if they match up, shit makes a lot of noise chattering, as it all adds up. Think of jumping on trampoline with a partner, time it right and you fly high. Then the aluminum driveshaft is just a loudspeaker in the whole system. The damped hub clutch discs tame it some, but the performance discs have such tough springs they don't do much damping at cruise and decel levels of torque. Aftermarket urethane bushings will transmit more noise as well. Basically everything you do for performance makes for more NVH.

you put a light clutch likea QM twin in it, and it sounds like the whole drivetrain is gonna fall out.

As for your setup and tuning. I advise picking a fuel and running it. At hot street levels E50 acts the same as E85 as far as timing and knock for IME. Honestly if you have a good NB, you can tune it on say like E70, and it'll be a tocuh lean at 85, and a little fat on 50, but be just fine over the range of expected E values of pump E. All that hinges on not having a FFS. As for running blends and trying to do it yourself. Don't do that. It's just a hassle and too confusing if you are just starting out. As far as I'm concerned with E>50% it won't knock as long as your AFR is inline 11-13 on gas scale, and timing is teens at peak torque and maybe up to 20 at high rpm. Again assuming you are just a hot street setup, reasonable intercooler, not trying to run 50psi or something crazy. Just no need for KS on ethanol. If you get a really bad tank, it ought to run fat as hell and alert you to somethings up instead of keeping your foot in it. The KS was there to keep them alive when a brain dead owner would put 87oct in them and then try to do top speed runs and shit like that.

For pump gas I'd pick a decent 91 or something, be conservative on timing watching the plugs and call it good and still probably turn the KS off anymore. I spent years f***ing with PK and shit. Then when I went stand alone I was worried about no KS, and well that was in 2017, and I ain't blown it up yet, and it's like 800hp.

it's over 500HP on 87oct. I'm sure it rattles some, but it's a brick shithouse bottom end. A little rattle at 500hp probably ain't gonna hurt it. I also don't make top speed runs with it either. Limit it to 1/8mi passes on 87.

I usually don't have much to say about tuning stuff as a bunch of guys with non running cars will come out of the wood work with all sorts of random shit.

I really appreciate taking your time to share your experience and technical knowledge. I like to come back and read to absorb it all and make some changes.

I really appreciate it from everyone.

I'll probably get a few more tanks of E85 and then switch to pump 93 for the winter. E85 isn't as abundant around here and can be a pain in the ass to go get as well.

Hammer down!

 

[bastarddsm]

I run E around here year round. I did have to spend some time to get cold starts decent, but that was like -10*F cold. At say 30 I can't say I notice a difference.

I seen up there that you are seeing 30* AIT rise in a single gear, you'll not have a good time with pump gas and that.

I finally took a second to look at your mod list - is it current?

#1 ditch the fancy pvc setup. letting your engine intake blow by gasses will cause knock.
#2 I think that targeting 11.0 gas scale on E85 on a 16g is a bit rich for my blood. That's richer than mine is at 800hp, and it's down on power any richer than that. 11.5-12 for me, and probably closer to 12 on a 16g not set on kill. If mine is that rich it 100% shows knock on the plugs. idk if it's real knock or what, but it less than thrilled about it. I've read some papers on that subject which suggest it's real knock due fuel washing oil off the cylinder walls esentially and creating a low octane fuel in the chamber.
#3 what intercooler is on it? seems like a lot of temp rise for a 16g, or is that bad data?
#4 Are you using using flex fuel with ecmlink? If that's the case forget I said anything about not running partial blends. Get a solid tune on E85, and then get a conservative tune on 91oct, and tell the KS to take a hike. knock the boost back to something reasonable when it's not on a good % of E.

 

[92Turbski]

I run E around here year round. I did have to spend some time to get cold starts decent, but that was like -10*F cold. At say 30 I can't say I notice a difference.

I seen up there that you are seeing 30* AIT rise in a single gear, you'll not have a good time with pump gas and that.

I finally took a second to look at your mod list - is it current?

#1 ditch the fancy pvc setup. letting your engine intake blow by gasses will cause knock.
#2 I think that targeting 11.0 gas scale on E85 on a 16g is a bit rich for my blood. That's richer than mine is at 800hp, and it's down on power any richer than that. 11.5-12 for me, and probably closer to 12 on a 16g not set on kill. If mine is that rich it 100% shows knock on the plugs. idk if it's real knock or what, but it less than thrilled about it. I've read some papers on that subject which suggest it's real knock due fuel washing oil off the cylinder walls esentially and creating a low octane fuel in the chamber.
#3 what intercooler is on it? seems like a lot of temp rise for a 16g, or is that bad data?
#4 Are you using using flex fuel with ecmlink? If that's the case forget I said anything about not running partial blends. Get a solid tune on E85, and then get a conservative tune on 91oct, and tell the KS to take a hike. knock the boost back to something reasonable when it's not on a good % of E.

@bastarddsm
Nice! That's cool you got it dialed to run on E all year without issue.

Yes, that was in the dead of summer with a 2k-7k pull in 3rd. Seems way too lean to gain that much temp in 1 pull.

Mod list is current. I may be forgetting a thing or two, but the meat of it is there.

1. Ok, copy that! Would you suggest the OE route and leave it alone, or run a catch can?

2. Damn, that is pretty wild, even on an 800HP build for 11.0 on gas to be too rich. I'll dial it up to 11.5-12. Currently around 20 psi. See attached run after filling up on 93 pump gas today. 20% E mix, now.
3. The core of Intercooler is 24" wide x 7" tall x 3.5" thick. Id suspect ultra high temps to begin with a 2k-7k RPM pull in the dead of summer.
4. Flex fuel with link. I believe Kevin had the tune maxed out for E. I will copy and paste the low octane table from the ECM Link Evo8 tune and start with that. Attached tune is with Kevin's work, and me modifying the load factor 1.0 and up from 3500 to 11.0 AFR in both tables. 20 Psi Ok on gas, or dial it back a touch? Lmao, about to tell that KS to take a hike.

 

[92Turbski]

Timing min/max octane and open loop Min/max octane. I'll give this a spin and post up a log.

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[jed344]

11.0 target is quite rich on e85. I also can confirm when under 11.5 it will often times break up from being so rich. I am by no means a guru but on E85 i often either turn off the knock sensor or set it up to not pull timing as E will not knock. You tune it off plugs and finding MBT. With my own car and others i tune that log over 70lb/min and trap well above 140 most like 11.7-11.9. Going leaner i have not seen power gains myself but every set up is different. Have to remember that 12.0 gas scale air fuel is around 8.0 on E.

 

[92Turbski]

11.0 target is quite rich on e85. I also can confirm when under 11.5 it will often times break up from being so rich. I am by no means a guru but on E85 i often either turn off the knock sensor or set it up to not pull timing as E will not knock. You tune it off plugs and finding MBT. With my own car and others i tune that log over 70lb/min and trap well above 140 most like 11.7-11.9. Going leaner i have not seen power gains myself but every set up is different. Have to remember that 12.0 gas scale air fuel is around 8.0 on E.

Thanks, man. I appreciate the input. I'll continue the E85 tune in spring time. Since then I switched over to pump 93 and ran some fuel additive with PEA in it and it's been running absolutely awesome. I set all the tables back to Kevin's original settings, calculated global, adjusted combined FT to zero, and started making some hits. It's damn near spot on.
With the more potential energy in the gas, it's been nice to just cruise around in. The turbo definitely seems to spool faster on pump gas.
I'm happy with everything right now and have over 2100 miles on the complete rebuild/setup. Weather dependent, ill keep adding up the miles throughout the winter.

 

[bastarddsm]

20 is probably aok on pump. Just keep an eye on it, and if it don't feel right lift.