Resolved 1G 2nd & 3rd gear grind before and after rebuild

[Anfurnyy]

Car is a 93 Talon, manual (confirmed to have 93+ trans)
Ever since I got this car in 2020 2nd and 3rd have kind of "clunked"/"grinded" into gear.

Last year I refreshed the trans, replacing all synchros (except 5th/reverse), new keys, springs, 1/2 and 3/4 shift forks, new bearings, cleaned out the input and intermediate shafts, upgraded to 300m output shaft, and re shimmed the trans and the same issue persists. When I had it apart, neither the sliders or the dog teeth on the gear looked excessively worn or damaged (see pictures) One thing I'll note is I think I've installed the 3/4 slider on upside down but I'm not sure that would make a big deal or not because 4th is just fine.

-Always ran MT90 fluid only.
-2nd gear usually does it when the trans is colder, when it's warm I don't usually have any issues.
-3rd gear does really consistently though. If I shift slow, it doesn't seem to do it but even any sort of a moderate shift it clunks into gear. At high rpm it definitely seems to grind.
-All other gears are perfectly fine at any rpm.
-Clutch is an ACT 2900 sprung disk (yuck, I know) with an ACT flywheel but this also happened with a OE replacement that was in the car when I bought it.
-Pedal assembly has been welded
-Both Master AND Slave are NEW OEM, not AutoZone or Similar.

Is there a more surefire way to adjust the cables to make sure they are correct other than "put the shift straight up and down and slide the cables on"?
maybe its some sort of clutch disengagement issue still?

Is there other advice anyone can spare to try and get this fixed?

HERE'S a video of me shifting into 3rd pretty casually and you can hear it clunk.

Pictures to show the overall health of the trans while I had it apart.

Any advise is appreciated!

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[pauleyman]

Test for clutch drag. Given what you're saying it's the only thing I see. Are you sure the pedal assembly is welded correctly? Do you have all the transmission bolts in especially the one from the rear?

 

[Pjj]

How sloppy is your shift linkage? Brackets bent or anything? I remember mine would grind going into third years ago because the shift bracket was bent and not causing it to do the complete throw to get it into gear.

 

[twicks69]

Do you have pictures of the 1/2 slider on both sides showing the engagement teeth?

What was bearing preload set at for input and intermediate shaft?

Have you checked your shift cables and shift cable bushings?

Personally it sounds like a clutch hydraulic/mechanical disengagement issue with it dragging the clutch.

What power levels are you at with the car?

 

[Anfurnyy]

Test for clutch drag. Given what you're saying it's the only thing I see. Are you sure the pedal assembly is welded correctly? Do you have all the transmission bolts in especially the one from the rear?

I'll get that done this week.
I think it was welded correctly. I gave my welding guy the instructions and what not on where it needed to be welded.

All bell housing bolts are in and tight, and blue locktited

How sloppy is your shift linkage? Brackets bent or anything? I remember mine would grind going into third years ago because the shift bracket was bent and not causing it to do the complete throw to get it into gear.

Not sloppy at all, nothing is bent (that I can see), if I try to shake the shifter bracket on the top of the trans it shakes the whole car. I'll try to look at it close to see if it's bent.

Do you have pictures of the 1/2 slider on both sides showing the engagement teeth?

What was bearing preload set at for input and intermediate shaft?

Have you checked your shift cables and shift cable bushings?

Personally it sounds like a clutch hydraulic/mechanical disengagement issue with it dragging the clutch.

What power levels are you at with the car?

I'm not sure I do, ill dig through some pictures and see if I have anything.

Input shaft preload: .0066"
Intermediate shaft preload: .057"
I was shooting for your 600tq specs of these below but at the time you had limited shim availability.
Input Shaft --> 0.005" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Intermediate Shaft --> 0.007" - 0.009" PRELOAD

I actually bought these 2 shims from you, funny enough.

I have inspected them and I cant find anything wrong with them, no kinks, bends, breaks. the move smoothly.

I'm going to try and do a drag test likely tomorrow

I'm currently somewhere around 700whp/~500wtq

 

[pauleyman]

Try This

 

[Anfurnyy]

TLDR:
I think i have a 91.5-92.6 gearset with the wrong Hub/Slider/Shift fork and Rail. Please help me confirm

Kind of bringing this back.
Since this post started ive also switched to a QM twin disk, tried both a WSS bigger bore clutch master, and gone back to the stock 1g turbo clutch master and the issue still exists.

Now the kicker i was just looking through some pictures and posts about identifying gearsets and i think i have a weird ass setup that was probably done in error.

From @twicks69 post here: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/i-need-a-tranny-experts-help.514533/post-153667893
and more specifically here:

The 1991.6-1999 intermediate shaft has 3 markings on the 3rd cluster gear, no markings on 4th cluster gear. You will need to use 3rd/4th gears from a 1991.6-1992.5 with the 3rd/4th hub and sliders you have there and then use the proper 3rd/4th shift rail to match your shift selector assembly in the case. All of your gears you have shown for 3rd/4th have a 1990-1992.5 style 3rd/4th hub and slider and will use a 2-hole 3rd/4th shift fork. You will need to use DSM 3rd/4th from a 1991.6-1992.5 with 3rd and 4th having 3 markings on each gear on the gear teeth. The center diff housing will have 1 mark on the gear teeth of the housing; that specifies a 1991.6-1999 style housing.

i have the 91.6-99 intermediate shaft (which seems right) however I have 91.6-92.5 3rd and 4th seeing as how both 3rd and 4th have 3 marks on the gears. NOW what i need to verify is if i have the right shift rail/fork/hub & slider. As you can see i obviously have a 3 hole shift fork.

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which would mean the slider would have to match, would it not? Tim (@twicks69) also mentions that "You will need to use 3rd/4th gears from a 1991.6-1992.5 with the 3rd/4th hub and sliders you have there and then use the proper 3rd/4th shift rail to match your shift selector assembly in the case." - So do i use the 91.6-92.5 shift Rail since it should match the shift fork? Or do i use the 92.6+ Shift rail to match the case??

Could having the wrong shift fork/rail/hub&slider cause issues with shifting? Im not sure what the differences are.

 

[twicks69]

That is a 1992.6-1994 (and 1995-1999) style 3rd/4th gearset. They also have 3 marks on the 3rd and 4th gears, just like a 1991.6-1992.5 style gearset; the difference is that the earlier one uses a smaller diameter hub and slider assembly and synchro design, and then you need to have matching 3/4 shift rail and 3/4 shift fork.

2-hole 3/4 shift fork was used for 1989-1991.5 and 1991.6-1992.5 style gearsets.
3-hole 3/4 shift fork was used for 1G 1992.6-1994 style gearset as well as all 2g 1995-1999 transmissions.

 

[pauleyman]

I don't think that's right. Your pictures clearly show the larger hub and sleeve. The earlier style 3/4 the hub and sleeve are physically smaller in diameter and use the 2 hole 3/4 fork. If you're just commenting on grinding the largest issues I ever see are clutch related. That 3/4 sleeve doesn't look right either. Lot of wear where the fork rides.
As for the TLDR there is a reason that post is long. Take my advise or don't.

 

[Anfurnyy]

That is a 1992.6-1994 (and 1995-1999) style 3rd/4th gearset. They also have 3 marks on the 3rd and 4th gears, just like a 1991.6-1992.5 style gearset; the difference is that the earlier one uses a smaller diameter hub and slider assembly and synchro design, and then you need to have matching 3/4 shift rail and 3/4 shift fork.

2-hole 3/4 shift fork was used for 1989-1991.5 and 1991.6-1992.5 style gearsets.
3-hole 3/4 shift fork was used for 1G 1992.6-1994 style gearset as well as all 2g 1995-1999 transmissions.

Ah okay I couldn't find any information on the later stuff as far as identifying the gearsets.

I did find a 91.6-92.5 setup with the rail and it'll be here Friday. Shift fork on the way from Jacks as well as all keys and springs etc.

Thanks for the verification. I thought someone really shit the bed rebuilding this awhile ago

 

[CrackedDSM]

I really need to grow a pair and attempt to rebuild my spare transmission. I envy and respect you guys that can do all this. I'm so intimidated by it, it's not even funny. Or maybe I'm just super lazy, idk.

 

[pauleyman]

It's not even possible to mix and match. I've seen people try to screw up 90-91 stuff with 92, but 93 with the diameter change all the 3/4 stuff has to go together. 3,4, hub and sleeve, synchros, fork, keys, springs, rail all different from 92 and older. The 3/4 gear sufaces themselves are the same but you'll see the synchro teeth ring and of course the synchro are larger.

 

[Anfurnyy]

I don't think that's right. Your pictures clearly show the larger hub and sleeve. The earlier style 3/4 the hub and sleeve are physically smaller in diameter and use the 2 hole 3/4 fork. If you're just commenting on grinding the largest issues I ever see are clutch related. That 3/4 sleeve doesn't look right either. Lot of wear where the fork rides.
As for the TLDR there is a reason that post is long. Take my advise or don't.

Not sure what else to try with this transmission. Its seen a failure (not under my ownership) and the 93+ hub/slider are discontinued and cant find them anywhere so replacing it with another hasnt really been an option. I did replace the shift forks when I tore it apart a few years ago.
I did read your last post about issues with all the things to check and have checked them all.

Pedal assembly is welded
2 different clutches, including the twin that requires less engagement
New OEM slaves and Masters
upgraded masters
bleed port on master is not blocked
bled the absolute crap out of the slave 7 ways to sunday, speed bleeder, vacuum bleed, manual bleed.
No pivot ball shims
No extended slave rods
Im guessing its boiling down to i just have a shit 3rd gear hub/slider.

It's not even possible to mix and match. I've seen people try to screw up 90-91 stuff with 92, but 93 with the diameter change all the 3/4 stuff has to go together. 3,4, hub and sleeve, synchros, fork, keys, springs, rail all different from 92 and older. The 3/4 gear surfaces themselves are the same but you'll see the synchro teeth ring and of course the synchro are larger.

Thats all good to know. I swear i have read every single post about gear stuff in the forums but couldnt make out if they could somehow be mixed and matched.

 

[bastarddsm]

If you are getting a grind going into second still, your clutch is not releasing well. It could be as simple as you need the driver mod. Lots of things. I put the pedal up high, and sit close to the wheel, so I'm not reaching for the pedal or the shifter.

 

[Anfurnyy]

If you are getting a grind going into second still, your clutch is not releasing well. It could be as simple as you need the driver mod. Lots of things. I put the pedal up high, and sit close to the wheel, so I'm not reaching for the pedal or the shifter.

It definitely could be. 2nd only seems to be a slight issue when trans fluid is cold. After it warms up it seems fine but I'll be honestly I don't rip into 2nd yet. Still breaking the clutch in. 3rd is pretty much always an issue.

It could be drivermod issue too. I feel like maybe I find myself trying to shift before the pedal is completely to the floor but even then with 3rd its still clunks or grinds at high rpm even if it is.

 

[CrackedDSM]

It definitely could be. 2nd only seems to be a slight issue when trans fluid is cold. After it warms up it seems fine but I'll be honestly I don't rip into 2nd yet. Still breaking the clutch in. 3rd is pretty much always an issue.

It could be drivermod issue too. I feel like maybe I find myself trying to shift before the pedal is completely to the floor but even then with 3rd its still clunks or grinds at high rpm even if it is.

I’m there as well. Someone who has the perfectly adjusted setup should show how soon after the pedal hits the firewall they can slam it into gear. I find myself having to pause ever so slightly before I put it into gear from a dead stop after the clutch pedal is fully depressed, but wot seems to be not as much of an issue.

 

[bastarddsm]

Shifter is moving before the pedal hits the floor for me. On my setup the pedal travels say 6". Clutch is released by 2" into the travel.

I routinely get 290ms 1/2 shifts with a double synchro second and a ACT 4 puck solid disc. The all motor car was a solid street disc with a 2100, and on a 90 single synchro trans and they were in the 350ms range being conservative to not miss a gear. I'm currently running a tiltlon 7.25" single disc, and it actually does not shift much better than the old setup, even though it has probably 30% of the MOI of the old disc. The 7.25" race clutches have thier own issues, one of them being that the donut is not lifted by the spring like on a stock type pressure plate. Also they have more leverage so you get less release clearance than with the stock parts - but the cover is more rigid so that helps speed up the disengagement. I think damn thin QM flywheel is too floppy as causing issues too.

My times are measured on the upper stop. The duration of power interuption is much shorter.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Just the info I was after. Awesome.

 

[TerminalTalon]

Here for the knowledge .

 

[Anfurnyy]

Shifter is moving before the pedal hits the floor for me. On my setup the pedal travels say 6". Clutch is released by 2" into the travel.

I routinely get 290ms 1/2 shifts with a double synchro second and a ACT 4 puck solid disc. The all motor car was a solid street disc with a 2100, and on a 90 single synchro trans and they were in the 350ms range being conservative to not miss a gear. I'm currently running a tiltlon 7.25" single disc, and it actually does not shift much better than the old setup, even though it has probably 30% of the MOI of the old disc. The 7.25" race clutches have thier own issues, one of them being that the donut is not lifted by the spring like on a stock type pressure plate. Also they have more leverage so you get less release clearance than with the stock parts - but the cover is more rigid so that helps speed up the disengagement. I think damn thin QM flywheel is too floppy as causing issues too.

My times are measured on the upper stop. The duration of power interuption is much shorter.

My current setup is the QM 8 leg twin, with the gear drive disks, 1g OEM Turbo Master and Slave cylinders.
Master rod is adjusted as far out as it can be without blocking off the bleed port inside so that it gets the most pedal travel and the most linear engage/disengagement so it's not a light switch.
If the twin is supposed to require far less travel to release fully I feel like I should have these problems honestly, especially with the twin.

At this point I feel like I'm out of reasonable options. I don't have the resources to check everything as fine tuned as you do. I have a 91.6-92.5 3rd and 4rd setup coming in Friday so if I still have issues after that I'm not sure what the hell I'm going to do. I've tried everything.

 

[pauleyman]

My current setup is the QM 8 leg twin, with the gear drive disks, 1g OEM Turbo Master and Slave cylinders.
Master rod is adjusted as far out as it can be without blocking off the bleed port inside so that it gets the most pedal travel and the most linear engage/disengagement so it's not a light switch.
If the twin is supposed to require far less travel to release fully I feel like I should have these problems honestly, especially with the twin.

At this point I feel like I'm out of reasonable options. I don't have the resources to check everything as fine tuned as you do. I have a 91.6-92.5 3rd and 4rd setup coming in Friday so if I still have issues after that I'm not sure what the hell I'm going to do. I've tried everything.

I would start to question if the pedal is correct.

 

[Anfurnyy]

I would start to question if the pedal is correct.

I could definitely try and rebuild the other set I have for my roller and swap em. Id probably send it to @bastarddsm to have it modified for extra travel too then.

 

[bastarddsm]

The QM should shift mint with good stock pedals, stock master and a Izuzu slave. You will need a pedal stop if you run a 1g or 2g slave. It sounds like you are over extending the pressure plate. At one time there was a drawing around that showed the setup of the qm clutch and the movement range for the fingers. the needed release travel of the TOB is less than the stock clutch. The QM has an internal stop, and you CAN feel it when actuating the clutch with your hand. You likely won't with your foot.

None of this matters if you have warped to shit parts, or bend the disc on installation, or install things backwards ect. Have you checked your input shaft to make sure it's not bent? That's easy to do when you put a f***-clobbering clutch in the car. I twisted one off back in the day with a QM and 500hp. First sign of trouble is that it wouldn't shift anymore.

Get a new fancy gopro in the car watching you so you can see whats going on and watch it in slowmo to see what you are doing.

It takes a lot of finesse and patience to get it setup right, but that honestly goes for ANYTHING automotive.

 

[Anfurnyy]

The QM should shift mint with good stock pedals, stock master and a Izuzu slave. You will need a pedal stop if you run a 1g or 2g slave. It sounds like you are over extending the pressure plate. At one time there was a drawing around that showed the setup of the qm clutch and the movement range for the fingers. the needed release travel of the TOB is less than the stock clutch. The QM has an internal stop, and you CAN feel it when actuating the clutch with your hand. You likely won't with your foot.

None of this matters if you have warped to shit parts, or bend the disc on installation, or install things backwards ect. Have you checked your input shaft to make sure it's not bent? That's easy to do when you put a f***-clobbering clutch in the car. I twisted one off back in the day with a QM and 500hp. First sign of trouble is that it wouldn't shift anymore.

Get a new fancy gopro in the car watching you so you can see whats going on and watch it in slowmo to see what you are doing.

It takes a lot of finesse and patience to get it setup right, but that honestly goes for ANYTHING automotive.

I had read a few people never had any issues with the stock master and slave so I figured Id give it a go. I did also read that it would require a pedal stop. I'll check what I can when the trans comes out. Including input shaft. I can't imagine it's bent since Everytime I ran a 2900nt just blew the fiction material apart. I haven't shifted hard with the twin yet.

I DID definitely feel it when I ran your Wildwood master. I don't feel like I feel it with the stock master in though.

I'll try the camera thing. I've got a 360 can I can setup and watch I suppose.

 

[bastarddsm]

get all 4 wheels up and have someone try to turn them while it is in gear and you slowly depress the clutch.