1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX knock/rattle?

[Caseyrobinett_2011]

I just purchased a 97 GSX with 120k on body and around 10k on engine rebuild. I paid very little for the car because the guy who sold it said he was hearing some kind of strange knock sound? So when i went to check it out it didn't sound like a rod knock or anything very threatening but at the same time i was not sure on what it was so i went ahead and took a big gamble and bought it. I am new to the 4 cylinder turbo and AWD world i grew up building drag cars with my dad and went to school for automotive and decided i wanted to try something a little different so i did. This is the car i ended up getting, my goal was to buy and evo but with just having my first child and buying my first house i had to settle for something a little cheaper but in a sense the gsx is almost the same as the evo so im happy. Now to my problem with the rattling noise i took apart the head to make sure the cam was fine all rockers and so on were in good shape and they were in great shape so it puzzled me a little until i went underneath the car. I found that the balance shaft pulley was in very bad shape the nut that holds the pulley its self on is missing there is a very noticeable chunk missing out of the pulley and about 6 teeth that the belt rides in is missing also. Would this be a possible cause of the rattling noise im hearing?

 

[chrysler kid]

The part in your picture is the oil pump sprocket and yes it is missing the nut that goes on top of it. Most likely the nut was not torqued correctly and came off. The noise you heard was most likely the nut rattling around behind the lower timing cover.

With the oil leak and pulley damage you need to replace the oil pump sprocket, timing belt, balance shaft belt.

 

[Caseyrobinett_2011]

There is no timing belt cover and the noise is coming from something hitting it's not really a rattle noise but at the same time it kind of is. When repairing all of this will the engine need to be pulled or is it possible to fix in the car. I have a video recorded of the noise but it will not let me upload it?

 

[JS4G63]

Put the video on YouTube and then post the URL here. Are you saying that even with the timing belt covers (plural) off, after checking for the missing nut and other foreign material, you STILL hear a nasty sound? Is the sound intermittent and randomly occurring, or does it sound like a repeating pattern/rhythm?

DON'T run the engine again until you figure out and repair all damage has been done! Can you take a picture of the oil pump sprocket damage? Not that we need a pic, if it's damaged then you must replace it regardless of how the damage looks, but I AM interested in seeing the tooth damage.

 

[Caseyrobinett_2011]

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[Caseyrobinett_2011]

That is the best video I have of the sound sorry for the poor quality. And if anyone would care to help me out and send links or something to a list of recommended parts to fix the obvious pulley and whatever else is thought to be wrong it would be much appreciated.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Casey I can't get your video to load on my phone and I am at work where the Internet Police keep me from viewing on the work computer. Is this car a standard or auto car? I looked at your profile but there wasn't any car info.

 

[Caseyrobinett_2011]

Sadly it's an auto but hopefully one day I can try to convert it to manual.

 

[oneslowwdsm]

Drain the filter, look for metal flakes in the oil. If the oil is clean, then you know it might not be internal. I would start by replacing everything timing related. Use OEM parts. Extremepsi.com and other vendors here should have everything you need.

 

[Caseyrobinett_2011]

Ok thanks I'll check them out and what oil does everyone recommend for these cars I want good stuff preferred.

 

[JS4G63]

Don't worry about oil brand until you verify your motor is OK Mobil1 10w30 HIGH MILEAGE, though...

Just to confirm... TEETH are MISSING from the oil pump sprocket?!? If that is true, then there is a chance that buzzing noise is your oil pump gears rapidly engaging and disengaging each other as the timing belt intermittently grabs the un-damaged oil pump sprocket teeth when they come around.

I hate to cast an ominous dark shadow on your troubleshooting, but that noise isn't a good one.
Do not start that engine again until you replace the timing belt and oil pump sprocket. Even if you can't see any damage to the timing belt, it might have been injured by the bad oil pump sprocket. Look for scratches or other damage on your tensioner and idler pulleys too.
That sound could also be spun rod bearing or stretched rod bolt, but let's not jump to conclusions until you replace the parts that are definitely damaged.

And yea, like oneslowdsm says, drain your oil and look for metal flakes. I always like to catch the first 5-10 seconds of an oil drain into a black cloth (old t-shirt) to make it easier to look for foreign material.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

No no Casey, that's a GOOD thing being an auto!!! My oldest son has a 97 Talon AWD auto car and I would love to have a auto....constant spool and no clutch stuff to mess with. Ok since I know it is a auto car, but still can't hear the video I want to tell you a story about the 97 Talon. It had a horrid sound that was a knock but kind of a rattle but deep. We pulled the engine thinking rod bearing. When we took the trans off of the block, 2 of the 3 webs on the flexplate were broken and that was the sound.......so, take a look up through the inspection cover at your flexplate and see if you can see any cracks in it and try to wiggle it to see if it is possibly loose. If so then there is that sound you were looking for. If not, well at least I have put it out there for anyone else with a auto trans that has a weird knock/clunk/rattle. Of course fix the things you already have found but check that out. Peace

 

[Caseyrobinett_2011]

I've tried weighing all the possibilities and some are sounding pretty bad if it's worst case scenario let's say the bottom end needs redone how much would I be looking at to redo the entire bottom end and all timing components? Just a ball park estimate will help

 

[JS4G63]

Automatic DSMs rule, don't convert to Manual

If you don't go nuts with "upgrades" and aftermarket parts, you can rebuild a bottom end for under $1000 (not including head gasket and timing belt components) by re-using your pistons, rods and crank. It depends though, if a main bearing is toast then the crank will need to be cut, and in severe cases it might not be salvageable at all. If the crank is fine, it likely just needs a micropolish. If a rod bearing is toast, you might need to have the rod fixed or replaced. Every motor will be different in what it needs during a rebuild.

If the bearings are fine (no metal flakes in oil drain) then don't rebuild the motor yet. If it turns out the noise is coming from the timing system or oil pump, then you are looking at a lot less money to fix it, say... $30 for a used replacement oil pump sprocket and nut, plus $75 for a new OEM timing belt; and if the oil pump gears are damaged from chattering then another $375-ish. Chances are your hydraulic tensioner and belt pulleys are OK if they were done recently. If the oil sprocket nut got up into the system it might have scratched up the pulleys and hurt their bearings, but probably not. Your belt would probably be broken if a nut got between it and a pulley.

But don't scare yourself into the wor$t ca$e $cenario without addressing the obvious damage first. Before you do anything else, check your flex-plate through the inspection panel. If that is OK, then drain your engine oil through a black t-shirt and look for metal flakes. If you don't find any, replace the oil pump sprocket and timing belt and see if the noise goes away. If it doesn't, pull the oil pump and check the helical gears for damage or excessive wear, and check the gear housing for scarring.

You'll almost always see metal flakes in an oil drain if a bearing is bad or the oil pump gears have cut into the front case.

One more time... are you saying the oil pump sprocket has missing teeth?

 

[chrysler kid]

With the timing cover off and the car running the oil pump makes a clicking noise as it builds pressure and releases fluids. Atleast mine did.

with the timing cover on the car the sound is not audible.

Having the cover off, and echoing against the frame rail and then echoing off the ground really magnifies the sound. Timing cover muffles the noise, and the splash guard gets rid of the echo

To be honest with a project like that I would inspect for shavings in the oil, if the oil is clean I would get a new sprocket and an oil pressure gauge to monitor the pressure and drive it as is for a few days. If the sound is no longer audible with the splash guard and the timing cover on you won't have any problems

Replacing the oil pump assembly is really the most major job you can do with the engine still in the car, and you have to line up that huge paper gasket exactly perfect otherwise you will have oil leaks.

 

[Caseyrobinett_2011]

Yes it has some missing teeth and the noise does not really sound like a rod or bearing it's a very different sound from that and the video does little justice to understand the sound. I'm wondering to if the shaft the pulley is attached to hasn't come out of the block slightly or something also cause of the oil spray that all around that pulley?

 

[BlackDSMthingy]

From what I see, if you're extremely lucky, you can replace both belts and the timing tensioner and pulleys, find all three timing covers and install them, get a new oil pump sprocket and the correct nut, and line up all the marks during installation. Make sure there's no play at all in the oil pump drive shaft when you take the belt off, and also make sure that when you turn the oil pump sprocket by hand you don't feel any crunching or binding on the other side. I've seen the balance shaft snap if the nut on this pulley falls off. If everything is smooth, make sure you chase the threads on the oil pump, use red Loctite and torque this nut to spec. Hopefully this is as far as you need to go. If you snapped a balance shaft, you would need to remove the engine and do a teardown to see what the extent of the damage is, but I will tell you from personal experience that I've never been able to save the lower end if you snap a shaft. This is a potential engine threatening failure, and remember that the turbo shares the same oil as the engine. It may turn into a case where you need to ask yourself how far down the rabbit hole you're willing to go. Hope this helps and good luck...

 

[chrysler kid]

Yes it has some missing teeth and the noise does not really sound like a rod or bearing it's a very different sound from that and the video does little justice to understand the sound. I'm wondering to if the shaft the pulley is attached to hasn't come out of the block slightly or something also cause of the oil spray that all around that pulley?

The oil pump sprocket sits ontop of the oil pump shaft seal. So having the sprocket loose on the shaft without the nut will cause the leak. The shaft for the oil pump has a ridge for the sprocket to sit on and the nut on top of the sprocket puts tension on the seal to form a leak free area.

The sprocket acts like a piece of the seal. The oil pump makes a tic

 

[Caseyrobinett_2011]

So I come home from a bad day at work and figured if I worked on the car some maybe it would help my day instead I got the opposite effect.I finally gave it all a good look over and got it up on stands and started looking around but wasn't to happy at what I found. I found a good amount of under carriage rust which I expected but didn't really expect this much and I looked back at were I think the problem is and I could grab the pulley and wiggle it slightly by hand then I looked were it could be hitting and I found what is in the picture look at the pulley next to it it's also missing a decent sized chunk. Is it safer to say now that this is my noise?

 

[chrysler kid]

Yeah you already posted a picture of the chunk missing out of the oil pump sprocket

You have a chip in the harmonic balancer, and I can see a crack in the rubber. It needs to be replaced. The oil pump makes that noise on its own, those two broken pieces would not cause your noise


You don't have a bolt holding the oil pump sprocket onto the shaft, of course it is going to wiggle.

Bottom line you need to replace the broken and missing parts first

 

[BlackDSMthingy]

The two chunks won't be the noise you're hearing. I think they're when it started. Like Chrysler Kid said the noise is coming from the oil pump. He is accurate about the seal as well. And yeah, the balancer is definitely not trustworthy either. Those two chunks are the very reason Mitsubishi designed these motors to have timing covers. I think what you're seeing there is what happens when a chunk of whatchashiznit got caught between the two pulleys when the motor was running. It must have been either a rock, metal chunk or bolt, or something, but it was HARD. The pulleys tried to break what it was, but they broke instead. Just my theory. BTW, this very act may have been enough to loosen the oil pump sprocket nut. Whether or not this is what actually happened it's enough reason to see why you always run covers. Did the PO drive this any distance this way, or did you? Just curious...

 

[Caseyrobinett_2011]

To my knowledge it has not been drove at all in this shape.

 

[BlackDSMthingy]

I would replace the aforementioned parts and carefully run it. If the noise is gone you may have dodged the bullet for now, but this may have shortened the life of the oil pump. Keep an eye on the gauges and don't push her too much until you know it's fine. Good luck!

 

[Caseyrobinett_2011]

Well i finally figured out my problem and started repairs! What seems to of happened is the oil pump sprocket retaining nut fell off got wedged in the pulleys and took a chip out and then took out the oil seal around the sprocket which allowed a small oil leak. So now that i knew what the problem was i took off the oil pan to inspect the balance shaft and the bottom end and i noticed some how the balance shaft knocked out the bearing that the balance shaft rides in and thats were my knock was and while it was knocking it was destroying the bearing which put a very very small amount of metal shaving through the motor. So just to be safe i went ahead and started taking the motor out and plan on completely cleaning out the motor to ensure i can get all of the metal flakes out of the engine and im just going to replace a lot of the wore components. So far the parts i went ahead and got to help fix my problem is....Gates racing blue timing belt (just to be safe),New OEM oil pump and all gaskets, New head gasket, New lifters with larger oil port holes, New rod bearings, New main bearings, BS delete kit, ARP head studs, Hallman PRO boost controller, AEM wideband and boost fail safe gauge. I also found out that there was more done to the car than what was stated when i purchased the car such as a brand new steel crank that has little to no miles on it, New steel rods with no wear and New pistons and wrist pins. Now i am looking for a full set of timing covers and i believe i should be good to go if anyone has in recommendations im open to them.
Thanks for all the help!

 

[Caseyrobinett_2011]

Out of curiosity does anyone know how much power stock axles and stock AWD power train can take?