16g vs 20g fwd performance

[LOWBOOST91]

I have a 97 Talon tsi fwd mostly stock with bolt ons 67,xxx miles, needs a little work here and there

This isnt really a comparison thread its more of a discussion, I plan on doing a road course/ drive every once and a while car. Im not very competetive i dont really plan on making gobs and gobs of power on a fwd vehicle. (because its fwd) I just want to make it a fun car that I can drive and take to VIR on the weekends.

Any way just kinda wanted to start a talk about turbo choices, its obvious that I will be going for either one of these turbos

A side note I plan on running an electronic boost controller. DSM link will be my tuning option (ECMlink) I dont plan on doing internals at all, Just gonna run stock top and bottom end ( maybe, just MAYBE some cams)

BIG 16G- I feel would be a good choice because of the quicker spool but I would be worried about the dead spot and the drop off of boost at higher rpm. Is this something I should really be worried about? Or is it needless and I should get the quicker spool.

20G - That being said we all know bigger turbo = bigger power, and I ###### wouldnt have to worry about the drop off as much in higher rpm, The lag actually might be more of assistance due to being fwd. It very well could help with wheel spin issues the car may encounter

 

[Chase_Smith40]

I have a tdo6 20g and i absolutely love it! i had the 14b and liked the gradual more sustainable boost and the 16g was absolutely amazing for putting you in your seat from the launch and i would constantly kill people off the line but i found with my 20g i love when people get me off the line and as soon as my turbo spools i leave them in the dust with the look of " what the hell is in that car!?" I have found that my turbo spool is in the perfect range for cornering and coming out i start to spool at 3500 and full boost by 4k. at the end of the corner i keep it at 3500 then spool up and rocket out of them!

 

[LOWBOOST91]

You see that was my exact thought on it, and i think i will just do that instead of the b16g, I hate the fact that I have fwd. But it doesnt mean its a bad car. I think a 20g on 16 to 20 lbs would be awesome.

 

[Breezio69]

I don't have experience with a 20g. But I do know with my own b16g. If you wanted to "power out" of the corner around 4000-4200 rpms in first or second and then smash full throttle, you will be throwing up clouds of white smoke... sometimes when I'm merging on the freeway it requires a slow creep on the on ramp then a quick lane change into 70mph traffic. If I cruise up the ramp in 2nd and gun it anytime I'm "above" my spooling rpm (above like 3400), tires break loose every time..

I personally want to go larger than a 20g, but on an awd platform next.

 

[98eclipse3493]

I have a FWD and frankly unless you plan on buying a LSD front end, theres no point in leaving the t25. I had my GST tuned on 16 lbs on my t25 and it spun in 3rd when boost would hit. Granted my tires weren't 'great', its still worth the money. Wavetrac LSD ftw!

 

[T is for TURBO]

I have a FWD and frankly unless you plan on buying a LSD front end, theres no point in leaving the t25. I had my GST tuned on 16 lbs on my t25 and it spun in 3rd when boost would hit. Granted my tires weren't 'great', its still worth the money. Wavetrac LSD ftw!

Your tires must have been absolute shit. On 18 psi with FP BigT-28, and Dunlop Direzzas Z1s I couldn't get much more than a chirp out of second.

 

[jjw205]

Wow, the guy losing traction in 3rd with a T25 at 16PSI must have been driving in the snow....

Anyways, with my Evo III 16G, I started having bigtime traction problems above about 15PSI, and 20-25PSI it was all over the road (with new tires) and almost undriveable in rain. I had to swap to AWD. But as said above, a nice WaveTrac would be a big help. But for the price, you could almost convert to AWD.

I would say 14B would be great overall. Few people run 11's with that thing, amazing.

 

[Racejunkie05]

While shep had my transfer case I drove my car a little just front wheel drive since I have a welded center diff. With a td05 20g my car was completely useless in 1st and 2nd an would spin up to around 85mph in third on 21psi. It seems like it lags for a sec and then hits hard which breaks the tires loose. I was running 225 40 18s with great tread and they didn't stand a chance. Never had a 16g though so I can't speak for that.

 

[Lopez19d]

Your tires must have been absolute shit. On 18 psi with FP BigT-28, and Dunlop Direzzas Z1s I couldn't get much more than a chirp out of second.

Agreed, im running a 16g with basic mods and upgrades and i only lose traction in first, sometimes second. Id start out with the 16g, plenty of power and only requires basic upgrades

 

[WES_393]

I second the vote for Small 16g. Don't let it's name fool you, it's more efficient than the Big 16g with very little difference in max airflow capabilities. Not to mention it spools much faster.

 

[lasershark]

i had a fwd laser with just the stock 14b and if i got on it around street corners it would break loose pretty easy when messing around for fun granted the suspension was stock but just throwing that out there

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Understeer? Tire-spin?

Solution: Learn how to drive.

If you jab the loud-pedal with extreme prejudice in the first half/middle of a corner in an AWD or FWD car that likes to push through (redundant).. you're going to have a bad time.

Jackie Stewart sez: Don't get back on the throttle til you know you won't need to come off

Basically - Point, then click.

That'll be $10.

 

[Breezio69]

Wow, the guy losing traction in 3rd with a T25 at 16PSI must have been driving in the snow....

Anyways, with my Evo III 16G, I started having bigtime traction problems above about 15PSI, and 20-25PSI it was all over the road (with new tires) and almost undriveable in rain. I had to swap to AWD. But as said above, a nice WaveTrac would be a big help. But for the price, you could almost convert to AWD.

I would say 14B would be great overall. Few people run 11's with that thing, amazing.

I feel the exact same way about the turbo choice and psi, and I'm on brand new (less than 1000 miles) falken zeix 612's. I'm at 18 psi and the other day in 2nd gear I was leaving my place (you turn and go up a small grade, right third lane merges to two lanes shorlty after the turn). Anyway, I shifted into second like normal and had a long row of cars behind me, gunned it on the hill to catch a spot to get into the lane and damn thing immediately spun and "pulled" the car half way into the lane next to me.

When I was tuned around 13-15 psi it would never do that.

Every time my car does something like that I start looking at local ads for awd... too bad most of them around me are actually done up in a respectable way, and are fetching a realistic price for how nice they have them done up.

 

[jjw205]

Anyway, I shifted into second like normal and had a long row of cars behind me, gunned it on the hill to catch a spot to get into the lane and damn thing immediately spun and "pulled" the car half way into the lane next to me.

When I was tuned around 13-15 psi it would never do that.

Every time my car does something like that I start looking at local ads for awd... .

I know, similar thing happened to me (in oncoming traffic). Torque steer + wheel spin is not my favorite thing. I loved my FWD, but AWD is like a different car. If you are just drag racing, you can get it to hook decent in a straight line. But real world, open diff and 300+ whp is just not fun for me. I must not "know how to drive".

 

[Spector5]

It depends on where you want your power band. The two turbos will move your power band around a bit.

You can use basic Algebra to figure out what size fuel pump, injectors, and turbo would all work best for your engine and what you want out of the car. If you want a little more mid to a bit higher thresh hold on your powerband, then go with the 20g but if your looking for a quicker spool or quicker throttle response play around with the 16g and different diameter piping.

Also, don't forget to play with suspension and tire width and size like most of the guys have stated.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I know, similar thing happened to me (in oncoming traffic). Torque steer + wheel spin is not my favorite thing. I loved my FWD, but AWD is like a different car. If you are just drag racing, you can get it to hook decent in a straight line. But real world, open diff and 300+ whp is just not fun for me. I must not "know how to drive".

You might not.

I've owned FWD, AWD and RWD.. anytime I took any of my cars to a track, be it circuit or strip, something(s) were learned. More so when I had an instructor with me.

We all have bad habits and shortcomings.

As a matter of ego, everyone assumes they know what they are doing. Ever heard someone go "I've been driving for XX years" as a rebuttal to criticism?

Having had a 67lb/min FWD Stick Shift car.. also open diff at one point, on stock suspension, crappy all-seasons and none of the fancy Boost-by-gear we have now, getting around corners safely and staying in my lane under hard acceleration was not an impossibility.

Maybe if you have only focused on power and did nothing what so ever for your chassis prep it could be a real handful, but at the same time thats on you and still not entirely unmanageable.

LSD, Solid/Poly Mounts and bushings, Equal Length Half shaft mod, good tires and a competent driver nearly negate all these problems. Then you modify the suspension to make it more neutral.

Whether or not your break traction under throttle in a corner is not the turbo's fault.

 

[T is for TURBO]

LSD, Solid/Poly Mounts and pushings, Equal Length Half shaft mod, good tires and a competent driver nearly negate all these problems. Then you modify the suspension to make it more neutral.

Whether or not your break traction under throttle in a corner is not the turbo's fault.

I still don't understand why they didn't come from the factory this way. It's not like they didn't already have it designed

Also, I couldn't agree more with the tires. A "decent" tire vs a quality tire is a night and day difference. I though my Toyo Proxies were a great tire. That was until I got Star Spec Z1s... If you want FWD and and power, and you still want traction, don't be a cheap shit and buy the bargain brand tire. Get the real deal.

 

[Mark4g63t]

Just went from a 16g to a 20g on my fwd talon. Very fun street car. I'm at 26psi and love it. Only about a 300 rpm difference in spool time from the 16g, but feels much stronger up top.

 

[dsmpat95]

If you are going to be racing on a road course the 20g is your better bet, you will be in the upper rpm band more often. If you are plan on doing some autocross get the 16g. Boost by gear will help in both out.

 

[LOWBOOST91]

The PLAN is road racing, but for a good combo of street and road racing, based of what ive been reading from you guys, the 20g would be best.

 

[lasershark]

Understeer? Tire-spin?

Solution: Learn how to drive.

If you jab the loud-pedal with extreme prejudice in the first half/middle of a corner in an AWD or FWD car that likes to push through (redundant).. you're going to have a bad time.

Jackie Stewart sez: Don't get back on the throttle til you know you won't need to come off

Basically - Point, then click.

That'll be $10.

haha comedian, everyone is an expert when trying to criticize!
That'll be $10.00 for being...

 

[TSicktalon]

The PLAN is road racing, but for a good combo of street and road racing, based of what ive been reading from you guys, the 20g would be best.

Swing by the house and I'll take for a ride in a 20g car.

 

[Matticus]

The tires still spin a little. But not to the point of it being a problem like a turbo Honda. Depends on the area of road as well.

Full boost is around 4k.

Yea, since only turbo Honda's have traction problems

I would get a 20g

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

haha comedian, everyone is an expert when trying to criticize!
That'll be $10.00 for being...

He is actually right. You should think of driving as having a string attached to your gas pedal and your steering wheel. One or the other must give or you will break traction. Come in hot, cruise through the corner, and get on it on the way out as you start straightening out.

 

[lasershark]

He is actually right. You should think of driving as having a string attached to your gas pedal and your steering wheel. One or the other must give or you will break traction. Come in hot, cruise through the corner, and get on it on the way out as you start straightening out.

well then I guess I will elaborate since it seems necessary to do so. Was I racing no, was I trying to take a corner as fast as I can without breaking traction, no. Was I testing a crappy car to see how easily it broke traction on a corner, yes. Was I pleased at the performance of a car that was bone stock but in good condition, no. Obviously its not that difficult to ease off the throttle on a stock car to maintain traction in street corners. I was in the market for an AWD but a good deal made me buy a FWD to flip, of course there is many mods you can do to a FWD car to make it handle really nicely but all I was saying is that it is pretty easy to break traction, especially when the original goal was to test that exact thing, I've been in many great handling FWD cars but the fact is an AWD platform is a better performing platform when we are comparing stock to stock and since I wanted to start with a better platform from the beginning, I figured I would post how easily the FWD broke with the 14b, and since the original post was a turbo suggestion for a FWD I didn't think it would turn into a bashing or even better a driving lesson. Before we all start whipping them out to see who's is bigger, remember that we are here to help each other not criticize, its unhelpful people who make these sites intimidating for people who don't know that much and are trying to learn. We were not all born in a racing suit or in a tool box sooo...

 

[LOWBOOST91]

Swing by the house and I'll take for a ride in a 20g car.

I may just have to do that, we need to hang out some time, I got some work to do to the car before its perfect but it pulls good for stock boost