02 sensors and widebands?

[jooc]

alright.. i have link v3 with innovate lc-1 wideband.. getting ready to wiring everything in.. now.. i am putting it in spot of the front o2 housing.. wiring it up by the ecu including the db gauge.. now.. my question is.. do i need to do anything from the plug from the original o2 sensor from the harness.. or can i just leave it unplugged.. and do i need the second o2 sensor..? or can i just leave that out the equation too.. ??

 

[Blurred Talon]

Leave it unplugged and enable narrow band simulation in Link.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Leave it unplugged and enable narrow band simulation in Link.

Just to bring up a point on this.

If you are using the stock location on the 02 housing where the 02 sensor (narrowband) is usually located you should be informed on the facts and 'risks' with this.

One of the biggest things about Widebands is that they are sensitive. Not only are they sensitive to Air/Fuel mixture, as they should be, but they can be sensitive to heat. There are several out there who believe that having the Wideband that close to the exhaust side of the head after the combustion process generates heat will lead to premature failure of the wideband sensor. Now, this is hit and miss with the sensor as many have no issues with this and others do. So this leaves you with two options.

1 : Relocate the Wideband sensor further down the stream. I believe the recommended distance is somewhere along 36 inches away from the manifold? In any case it is further away than the stock location is.

2 : Create a sort of Heatshield/Heatsink for the 02 sensor. This is best left to an already decorated article of information found on a knowledge rich website - ( innovatelc1orlm1install [ECMTuning - wiki] )

-Example Picture-

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Now, the next thing to point out is that the Wideband can be used to in unison with a function that Link offers called Narrowband simulation. Found Here. Now, this works fine for most, but for others like myself, have had little luck with it. A stock narrowband sensor will generate a somewhat smooth up and down arc or wave when datalogging. The Wideband sensor running the narrowband simulation generates very elongated, sharp, squared readings. In my experience this caused a few issues with dialing my AFRs in. Also, if the wideband ever blipped, leanded/riched out or otherwise reset for whatever reason then you're stranded more or less as you cannot access Closed Loop due to the fact that there is no narrowband reading.

Hope this fills in a little bit for you and anyone else who may stumble upon it. Remember, results may vary from person to person, sensor to sensor, and vehicle to vehicle.

 

[jooc]

To your heat say.. For o2 sensor.. Is true.. ECM tuning there self have said they have had their o2 wideband in the upper o2 housing for couple years now and never had a problem and also get better readings for air/fuel mixture.. And don't have to compensate for further down stream readings.. But you do have a good point and the copper shield is a must.. Which I do have that.. I was just curious on if I left the rear o2 sensor plug in.. If it would interfere with the wideband and ecu stuff

 

[Miakehl]

To your heat say.. For o2 sensor.. Is true.. ECM tuning there self have said they have had their o2 wideband in the upper o2 housing for couple years now and never had a problem and also get better readings for air/fuel mixture.. And don't have to compensate for further down stream readings.. But you do have a good point and the copper shield is a must.. Which I do have that.. I was just curious on if I left the rear o2 sensor plug in.. If it would interfere with the wideband and ecu stuff

WHICH second o2 sensor do you mean? It seems to me you're adding one that came with the wideband and counting it in with the OEM units.

If your referring to the OEM upstream sensor, I'd say leave it in and connected. Are you using the wideband somehow for AFR input to DSMlink?

If you're referring to the downstream o2 (post cat) it doesn't make a difference, it doesn't affect AFRs.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

To your heat say.. For o2 sensor.. Is true.. ECM tuning there self have said they have had their o2 wideband in the upper o2 housing for couple years now and never had a problem and also get better readings for air/fuel mixture.. And don't have to compensate for further down stream readings.. But you do have a good point and the copper shield is a must.. Which I do have that.. I was just curious on if I left the rear o2 sensor plug in.. If it would interfere with the wideband and ecu stuff

Yes. As I stated people have really hit and miss on it. Obviously, the closer you have the sensor to the source the faster you'll get the readings. I won't go into the science of exhaust pulses or anything of the sort - but do note that you're not getting better readings, you are simply getting them faster. There are several dyno's that will clip a wideband sensor into the tailpipe of the vehicle they are tuning and can get accurate readings like this.

One of the main reasons people place the Wideband closer to the engine is because you have less chance of suffering from inaccurate readings due to exhaust leaks via gaskets, crackes, holes, etc. Just to share.

As for the 02 sensors, no. The rear only lets you know if your Catalyst is working properly or not. It makes no bearing on your AFRs. That is the job of the front 02 sensor. It's the reason you have two at all.

For reference, if you run 02 simulation, you have to setup the pin allocation to let the ECU know that the Wideband is running on the same circuit as the Front (or rear) 02 sensor. You will need to solder/joint/splice a wire from your wideband into either the rear or front 02 sensor wire near the ECU and then make the needed adjustments as they are outlined on the ECMlink website.

 

[Calan]

For reference, if you run 02 simulation, you have to setup the pin allocation to let the ECU know that the Wideband is running on the same circuit as the Front (or rear) 02 sensor. You will need to solder/joint/splice a wire from your wideband into either the rear or front 02 sensor wire near the ECU and then make the needed adjustments as they are outlined on the ECMlink website.

NB simulation in ECMLink does not require the wideband to be hooked up to a factory O2 input. As far as I know, NB simulation will work no matter which input the wideband is connected to, as long as it's properly defined on the inputs tab.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

NB simulation in ECMLink does not require the wideband to be hooked up to a factory O2 input. As far as I know, NB simulation will work no matter which input the wideband is connected to, as long as it's properly defined on the inputs tab.

Good call Craig.

Let me correct that statement - In order to Log via Link you will need to use an input. You can use one of many, however, it is very common to use the input of the sensor of which you are replacing.

 

[jtmcinder]

On what data is that claim based, Keiya? How many cars with ECMLink and a wideband have you seen where the wide-band's narrow-band simulator was connected to the front O2 sensor's wires vs where the wide-band's wide-band output was connected to some unused input and ECMLink did the work?

Seriously.

You said it was "common" to take the former (rather stupid) approach to using a wide-band with ECMLink. On what data was this claim based?

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

On what data is that claim based, Keiya? How many cars with ECMLink and a wideband have you seen where the wide-band's narrow-band simulator was connected to the front O2 sensor's wires vs where the wide-band's wide-band output was connected to some unused input and ECMLink did the work?

Seriously.

You said it was "common" to take the former (rather stupid) approach to using a wide-band with ECMLink. On what data was this claim based?

I'm sorry you've never heard of anyone doing it this way?

ECMlink grants you the ability to change/use an existing input to log from. As I added in, which I mistakenly forgot to wrap in "in order to log", if you wish to log through Link it is common to simply use the signal (Log) wire from the wideband controller and solder/splice it into an input at the ECU. I have done this on my past 3 (That's Three) DSMs and had nothing but positive and working results.

If you'd like the Crayon side of it.

Thought : I want to eliminate my Rear 02 sensor and put my Wideband there.
-Process-
A : Remove Rear 02.
B : Install Wideband.
C : Splice/Solder appropriate connection into the appropriate wire (Pin 75 if I recall for the rear)
D : Disable Rear 02 CEL/Check
E : In the Input configuration page, set your Wideband signal to read from Pin 75.
F : Start Logging.

This is the way that I was recommended to do on THIS site by both staff members and other knowledgeable (and non-egotistical) members and, surprise! It works.

 

[jtmcinder]

Reading isn't hard. You just have to focus.

The question was about your evidence that your way is common.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/396069-innovate-lc-1wideband-software.html#post152512194

Just for quick reference - Soldering in the Signal Wire to the appropriate pin near the ECU - In my case it was pin 76 as I was logging though Link along with Narrowband simulation. Why would anyone recommend something that isn't common? It's also an almost elementary thought process.

Note : The thread in regards is not entirely related to this thread, just showing that it is and has been suggested by Senior Moderation staff to solder/splice into those connections. Not sure why there's a problem. I base 95% of my methods off of the proven methods that have been shared with me by knowledgeable individuals.

 

[jtmcinder]

Why would anyone recommend something that isn't common? It's also an almost elementary thought process.

Got it. You have no evidence at all; it's all based on an inference.

I'll keep this in mind - as should others - when I read your posts.

cheers

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

If you're going to be removing, say, your front 02 sensor and running Narrowband simulation - Of course you're going to want to log your Wideband readings through Link as 95% of people do, so why not use the inputs already there and available that are currently not in use?

I'm sorry - Can you support your own input there and explain an alternate way to wire in the input from the Wideband controller (Let's say from an Innovate LC-1) to the ECU to allow Link to log other than physically wiring it in? I'd love to hear of an easier and hassle-free method.

Last I checked, Link didn't support telepathy, Bluetooth, or wifi?

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/422716-lc1-basic-install-dsmlink.html

externalsensorinstall [ECMTuning - wiki]

(Picture below submitted by Brian - AKA Snowborder of the Moderation Staff from above linked thread.)

Seems common to me.

 

[Calan]

How did we get from this:

... it is very common to use the input of the sensor of which you are replacing.

On what data is that claim based, Keiya?

...to talking about possible alternative ways to wire in a sensor?

I'm pretty sure JTM was just asking what your source was for claiming that it's common to place an aftermarket sensor on the equivalent factory input...which is a good question.

FWIW, I usually see logs with widebands connected to almost every input EXCEPT the front O2 input.

EDIT:

http://www.dsmlink.com/wiki/externalsensorinstall

Seems common to me.

The diagram on that page shows the wideband hooked up to the baro input. In fact, it doesn't show or say anything about the factory O2 input at all. Even if it did, that doesn't mean it is common for people to do it; only that it's possible.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

How did we get from this:





...to talking about possible alternative ways to wire in a sensor?

I'm pretty sure JTM was just asking what your source was for claiming that it's common to place an aftermarket sensor on the equivalent factory input...which is a good question.

FWIW, I usually see logs with widebands connected to almost every input EXCEPT the front O2 input.

As stated above, you can use whichever you want. The Rear 02 is just as usable as the front 02, depending on which one you decide to use. As the pins are directly beside one another, you can come across as many as you want. I think it's uncommon when held against " Do you use the Rear or the Front " simply because people who use the stock 02 Sensor outweighs those who rely on Narrowband simulation. That's likely why it's not commonly found. The practice "to place an aftermarket sensor on the equivalent factory input." is obviously used commonly.

For reference - the Baro Input is a factory input, isn't it? Just an input you're using for a different reason.

Additionally - I don't believe it's worth time to argue over what facts can be produced to prove that something is common as long as there are sources provided proving that it works from knowledgeable sources. It isn't productive nor is it appealing to the eyes. On my own mistake, I left out the line " in order to log." However, further discussion over "Can you provide proof that this is, indeed, common?" is a major eye-sore in the community and is more or less nit-picking where it's not needed. It works, it's proven it work. Many people do it. The sources are there.

 

[Calan]

The practice "to place an aftermarket sensor on the equivalent factory input. is obviously used commonly.

Again, what is your source for this data? Based on my experience, it isn't common at all.

For reference - the Baro Input is a factory input, isn't it?

Of course...but it's not an "input of the sensor of which you are replacing".

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

See the edit on my last reply. This is childish.

Actually, I'll ask a question.

- When you remove the rear 02 and place your wideband there. Which Input would you use at the ECU? Would you use your Front? Your Rear? Your Baro?

My Answer : I would use the Rear 02 input as that sensor is now eliminated and gone, thus leaving me with an available input that is easily accessible. Common sense would say that if I were eliminating my front 02 then I would practice this same method.

 

[Calan]

This is childish.

Agreed; the typical unsubstantiated claim followed by the dance to not look foolish.

Unless you have looked at hundreds of logs and compiled data on which inputs people use for what sensors (and you haven't), you have no idea whether it's common or not to do anything related to ECU inputs...so there is no need to say it is. The whole silly discussion could have been avoided in the first place if you would simply stop embellishing your posts to make people think you know more than you do.

You're obviously knowledgeable on DSM's; you don't need to keep trying to prove it with added fluff.

I'm out. Rock on!

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Huh... So I can sit here and provide you with posts all day of people eliminating their rear 02 and using the input of their rear 02 which is the factory equivalent, and you'll just overlook the data? Need I remind you that this was the method recommended to my be the Senior Staff? I would then assume that they have shared this information with others? You're arguing the most insignificant thing here to try to make a relevant point that any 4 year old could see through.

You should rethink your title. At the end of the day - it works and you can't say that it doesn't. You have no case other than your assumptions.

 

[jtmcinder]

Huh... So I can sit here and provide you with posts all day of people eliminating their rear 02 and using the input of their rear 02 which is the factory equivalent, and you'll just overlook the data?

No. What we'll probably do is go back and reread your previous posts in this train-wreck thread, notice that you were babbling on about the front O2 sensor until now, and then smack ourselves in the face for being silly enough to keep talking to you.

In any event, I got the answer to my question: "none."

 

[jooc]

Lol okay so back to my question... Now that we figured out we don't need the rear o2 .. And can leave both plugs unplug from the harness... I can use my wideband in the front o2 housing.. Via wired in front o2 sensor to be logged through ECM v3 ... My other question.. Is it recommended to just splice or actually cut the wire to te Ecu and solder it in from ecu to wideband?

 

[Rock2610d]

Not sure anyone answered the OP in this thread but I would like to know also. I want to keep my front O2 operational with ECM Link and put a wide band in the rear. Cat is missing for some reasonwill this be a effective way to install?

Can I just cut the OEM wire to rear O2 and solder and splice in the wide band to it and log it via the rear O2 pins.

 

[WES_393]

^ Yes, but you'll want to connect the wideband right at the ECU (pin 75, white wire).

Cut the rear O2 input wire at the ECU (leaving a few inches on the connector side) and connect the wideband's 0-5v output wire. Then just do all the assign/capture/display magic in DSMLink.

But be aware that with the sensor in the rear O2 spot there will be a higher chance of exhaust leaks altering the AFR reading.

 

[Spanky_DSM]

^ Yes, but you'll want to connect the wideband right at the ECU (pin 75, white wire).

Cut the rear O2 input wire at the ECU (leaving a few inches on the connector side) and connect the wideband's 0-5v output wire. Then just do all the assign/capture/display magic in DSMLink.

But be aware that with the sensor in the rear O2 spot there will be a higher chance of exhaust leaks altering the AFR reading.

Ive always had this confusing with simulating the WB, When you cut into the 75 pin for rear, or 76 for front, You literally cut it and wire it into the ecu. Because i've read a few people that say "splice into it"