WTF am i doing wrong here. should be 12's

[Bohrn]

I agree, way too fat.

You could take out an appreciable amout of fuel and turn up the boost. 50trims are supposed to be pump gas kings.

Also, no one has asked what your 60' times are? 1/10 in the 60' is good for 2/10ths in the 1/4, so if you are running really bad 60's your 1/4 is gonna suffer alot.

 

[TSIsean]

^^^ that was my first question when I read the posts.

Good and bad 60 foots make the diff b/t high and low 13s for me.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I dont think 19 degrees of timing is good in this case. Stock the ECU will go for ~17 degrees (over 2.1 g/rev). By taking out 35-40% of the airflow signal at your relatively low boost level, I would expect to see more timing than that. Odds are it is knocking. What most people dont realize is that 22 degrees of timing doesnt mean no knock if the ECU is shooting for 26 degrees If your setup "makes sense" (air metering is accurate, fuel pressure is what the ECU expects, injectors flow what they are rated for, no boost leaks, etc) I would expect to be about 5% leaner than basic injector compensation (34%) or about 38%, to give you a target AFR of mid 10:1s. What you end up with though is anyones guess. On my setup its predictable. I seem to recall that injectors that end in the *80 (like 680) flow less than what we would expect them to, could be wrong though. At any rate, keep it in the ballpark.

Adjusting the AFC affects timing. For this reason a chip with injector compensation at the least is very helpful. Hard to say what knock is when you dont know what the ECUs target timing is.

Also worth mentioning is that on my car, anything from 10:1 to 14:1 on the wideband (logged via DSMlink) shows up as .98 volts on the front O2 sensor. Good luck using that as a guide! I have the logs, perhaps I could post one. Here we go. A little hard to read with it shrunken down though.

 

[cfisher]

thanks guys. i'm putting the fpr w/6an lines in tonight. i'll let you know if it does the trick. using awd dyno w/wideband so we will see.

 

[Violater101]

Also worth mentioning is that on my car, anything from 10:1 to 14:1 on the wideband (logged via DSMlink) shows up as .98 volts on the front O2 sensor. Good luck using that as a guide! I have the logs, perhaps I could post one. Here we go. A little hard to read with it shrunken down though.

Yeah, I agree with him completely. The Front O2 values can vary so much it's not even funny. I can see .92V which is shown to be 12.6:1 on the FJO and .96 to be 11.4:1 Without the ability to log knock, most 2g owners don't really that they really are knocking despite their high timing #'s. BTW, nice airflow #'s Kevin

 

[1LE]

i personally am getting .96, then .98 o2's by redline, but im also getting 20-21 degrees timing advance. if i lean it out more, i get less timing advance (knock im guessing by my curve) but 02 voltages are right around .94 and .96.

Just to show how unreliable O2 voltages are, I gradually leaned my car out some more at the track and am now seeing .84 to .82v with no knock (27 degrees timing by 8k rpms, identical curve it'll run with more fuel)... Still have a small amount of fuel smoke out the exhaust, but I know I can't go even 1% leaner without completely trashing the timing (it'll climb like normal, then flatline at about 12 degrees to redline)...

 

[cfisher]

update fellas. i'm about to install the afpr/hf fuel filter/6AN lines tomorrow. i got ahold of a wideband the other day and went for about 20 runs. when i first ran it i was at -40 highs on the safc from 4-7K and was at 9.2 afr so i was way to rich. i took it to -45 and was at 10.1 on the afr. took it to -50 and was at 11.2 afr so i had to max it out to get a decent mixture. now the strange part. left it at -50 and hooked up the logger. did a 3rd gear pull and :thumbdown.

Engine RPM, 2843, Ign. Timing Adv. 33.0, B1S1 O2 Voltage, 0.439,
Engine RPM, 2875, Ign. Timing Adv. 33.0, B1S1 O2 Voltage, 0.699,
Engine RPM, 2917, Ign. Timing Adv. 32.0, B1S1 O2 Voltage, 0.140,
Engine RPM, 3097, Ign. Timing Adv. 22.0, B1S1 O2 Voltage, 0.860,
Engine RPM, 3457, Ign. Timing Adv. 12.0, B1S1 O2 Voltage, 0.899,
Engine RPM, 4027, Ign. Timing Adv. 9.0, B1S1 O2 Voltage, 0.879,
Engine RPM, 4703, Ign. Timing Adv. 8.0, B1S1 O2 Voltage, 0.939,
Engine RPM, 5355, Ign. Timing Adv. 10.0, B1S1 O2 Voltage, 0.939,
Engine RPM, 6027, Ign. Timing Adv. 12.0, B1S1 O2 Voltage, 0.939,
Engine RPM, 6625, Ign. Timing Adv. 12.0, B1S1 O2 Voltage, 0.939,

that's just plain ugly. so what do you guys think now. my problem still no afpr. i'm hoping so. i've already checked for boost leaks and i'm good there.

 

[pickens]

Add more fuel. If timing rises then you were knocking. Take away more fuel...if timing falls you are definately knocking. Simple enough to me, or is it...

Alos, o2 readings are a good rule of thumb. If your o2 are way out like 1+v or .8xv and you are having timing issues it is easy to tell which way you need to go.

 

[1LE]

Alos, o2 readings are a good rule of thumb. If your o2 are way out like 1+v or .8xv and you are having timing issues it is easy to tell which way you need to go.

Well, I run low to mid .8xx O2 volts and I'm still a smidge richer than I need to be. I've come to the conclusion that the O2 sensor is completely useless for tuning. At .82-.83 there's still a slight haze behind the car at low rpms (which is fine), top end goes up to about .86 and leaves a noticeable amount of fuel smoke (too much).

 

[Bohrn]

you HAVE to drop that fuel pressure a bunch, so that you aren't pulling so much fuel out with the SAFC.

If you have those drastic settings on your SAFC, you WILL have too much timing, and it in itself will cause knock that you cannot tune out by adding fuel. So dump some fuel pressure and then retune the SAFC. Try to set your fuel pressure so that your SAFC settings when nicely tuned are around -5 or so.

 

[pickens]

If you can visually see your car smoking at WOT or idle from inside the car, then you have other issues besides being rich. Also if you do happen to be rich at .82v then its time for a new o2 sensor.

 

[cfisher]

Alright, I got an update which is good and bad. First, I installed the Aeromotive FPR and SS lines to a high flow fuel filter and then back to the tank. I put pics below and the install was pretty easy. Set the base FP back to 43PSI with the hose off, reset the ECU. Put my SAFC back to 0 and started over. First I logged my lows and it was so much easier to tune. No more popping, nice and smooth. Went and did a 3rd gear pull and started the highs on the SAFC at -20,-20,-26,-28,-30 on up to 7K and it did feel stronger but once I looked at the log :thumbdown . My timing sucked, I only reached 12 deg timing, it bounced around from 8,10,11,8,9,8 ect.. but my o2's were nice and steady at .98 so I'm thinking Rich knock. I lean it out to -20,-22,-30,-35,-38 to 7K and do another 3rd gear pull. It definetly ran alot better, o2's were down to .96 but my timing was still crappy and would not go past 12. I don't get it. I know I can't compare SAFC #'s cause every car is different but most are in the same ballpark and my o2's match, my SAFC highs are pretty close to others and the car does not feel like it is knocking at all but my timing is gone. This is started to drive me mad. Any other guru's out there wanna give me some advice I would greatly appreciate it.

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[RavenX]

Time for you to get rid of the afc and get a dsmlink. I had the same problem as you no matter what i tried to do i only got 12 degrees of timing even with the keydiver chip. Sold the afc and got dsmlink and got me a wideband. Night and day difference i should say. It fixed all the timing issues i had and the car is running better than ever except for the idle surge but thats another story

 

[anconover]

o2's honestly dont mean shit. My car runs perfect at .76 o2's. What is your base timing? I dont think i noticed you mentioning if you had correctly checked/set the base timing.

 

[td06hkiko]

tuning on 92 octane right now. just went out and did another run. leaned it out on the safc to -40 on highs. now getting .96 o2's but still only 19 deg timing at 7K. still lost. also -40 seems pretty high. most guys are around -30/-35 on this setup. hmmmmm.

What were your egt's when you set your afc to -40??? I am tuned to 91 pump, 21 psi, using almost the same mods as you. (Walbro 255 660's and stock FPR) My Hi map on the afc is

HI Map
1k -19
2k -25
3k -31
4k -31
5k -31
6k -31
7k -31

LO Map

1k -16
2k -23
3k -24
4k -24
5k -24
6k -24
7k -24

Actual fuel corr is 7

Still getting shitty timing on 91 pump I am barely seeing 17 degs of timing at the top of 3rd. But If I richen 3k- 7k up to -29 start to get a little more timming advance but it feels sluggish. It runs better when I am set at -31 from 3k-7k. Egt's were about 1580-1590

 

[cfisher]

I don't have the EGT in right now but my A/F is 10.4 at the top of third so I'm still pretty rich. It really doesn't matter though because even if I lean it to 11.1 I still get the same crappy timing. I'm going to go have my base timing checked at a friends to see if that's where my problem is at. On my logger it says my base timing is 8 deg at idle. Also going to go get a bottle of Seafoam and run it through my BOV line. I've heard good things and I've never used it.

 

[cfisher]

Is it possible for me to lower my fuel pressure from my FPR lower than stock to more like 34 PSI base. This way I'm not taking so much out with the SAFC. I'm thinking if I turn it down I will lean out more and maybe get closer to the cars happy point because right now as you've seen I can pretty much take the SAFC to -50 and still run a 11.1 A/F. I don't think I should be seeing this much fuel from PTE 680cc injectors and a Walbro 255 and from others with similar setup's are around -30 to -35 on the highs which makes me think something else is wrong here.

 

[td06hkiko]

Try to set your FPR Back to 43 and reset your ECU and tune your Fuel Trims first. (Drive it around for like 2days and just monitor your fuel trims both LTFT and STFT make sure that they are close to ZEro in all RPm's up to 4k rpm. then, when they have stablized use the same for the Hi settings on the AFC. NOw go and log 3rd gear from 2500rpm-6900. after that just look at 3k rpm and see if you need fuel. You timing should drop as you hit full boost then start to climb. Where it starts to climb that's where you start adding or subtracting fuel. And yes, I agree about the logger saying 8 deg of timing at Idle.

 

[td06hkiko]

Is it possible for me to lower my fuel pressure from my FPR lower than stock to more like 34 PSI base. This way I'm not taking so much out with the SAFC. I'm thinking if I turn it down I will lean out more and maybe get closer to the cars happy point because right now as you've seen I can pretty much take the SAFC to -50 and still run a 11.1 A/F. I don't think I should be seeing this much fuel from PTE 680cc injectors and a Walbro 255 and from others with similar setup's are around -30 to -35 on the highs which makes me think something else is wrong here.

OH yeah forgot one thing. You dont want too much timing especially with crap gas. The most timing I see is about 16-17 deg at the top of 3rd w/20-21 psi, egt's around 1590-1600. With the 50 trim that you have, you must be hitting full boost by 4000 rpms. Now keep in mind that at 4000-5000 that's where torque kicks in and make sure you log it if you know you are gonna punch always look at your timing at these RPMS. now let say that your timing starts to climb from 4500 and by 5000 you get 14 DEG that's still good coz by 6000 you should have at least 16 degs of timing.

 

[anconover]

You dont want anymore than 19* timing on pump gas. More timing isnt better.

 

[lowridin2g]

o2's honestly dont mean shit. My car runs perfect at .76 o2's. What is your base timing?

i agree to a point, they do mean something, but by no means should they be used to tune by.

You dont want anymore than 19* timing on pump gas. More timing isnt better.

i used to disagree with that comment, but now i couldnt agree more. i gat about 15-16 deg advance on pump gas with an a/f ratio of 10.8 - 11.0 and 22 psi on pump gas. pulls harder than it did when i used to get 18-19 degrrees of advance when i just had the afc

 

[BluemeanieTSi]

high timing low boost
or
low timing high boost

pick one

 

[td06hkiko]

high timing low boost
or
low timing high boost

pick one

Hi boost 91pump 15-17 deg's timing.

 

[BluemeanieTSi]

Hi boost 91pump 15-17 deg's timing.

i was seeing 24 degrees advance till i lowered my fuel pressure running 25psi on 94 octane with a 50 trim and 650s...

 

[td06hkiko]

i was seeing 24 degrees advance till i lowered my fuel pressure running 25psi on 94 octane with a 50 trim and 650s...

what were your EGT's???? If you are still under 1500F you still have more room to lean her out. With 25 psi, 94 octane and 24 degrees advance seems that you are way too rich. Try taking out some fuel and see where your timing goes. If it goes down then you will start making power. The timing advance you should tune for is roughly 15-17. I made more power with 14-16 rather than 19-20 plus timing advance. Make sure when you start leaning her out, see if the EGT's change. 1650f should be you max.