WOT suggestions?

[WES_393]

Hey guys, just looking to get some feedback on a recent WOT log. As you can see, zero knock and I didn't feel/hear any misfires or detonation. However, I'm a little concerned about running lean. Especially between 4K and 5k RPM. I'm using an AEM UEGO so the reading is a bit off (+/- .2 usually), but in the 12's seems pretty lean. Especially since it goes from 11's to 12's suddenly.

Suggestions?

 

[snowborder714]

A deadtime of 45, really?

I don't understand how you're running that lean (assuming your AEM reading is correct) when you have no fuel adjustments. For some reason, I don't believe that reading. It seems the AFRatioEst reading should be more valid (although, that will still be off as you have no MAF Comp adjustments in the upper range). If it is true, then you have a massive amount of compensation to make for the MAF.

Where is the sensor mounted?

 

[WES_393]

Deadtime of 45 is what it took to get fuel trim zerod ay idle. Is that low?

The wideband O2 sensor is mounted a few inches back from the flex section of the exhaust pipe.

This is why I posted it here so you guys could give me some guidance. I knew that was off

 

[snowborder714]

If it works, it works. Seems low compared to recommended starting points. To me, it'd be interesting to have them tested by Tom and see what the individual injectors look like.

I'd check for exhaust leaks maybe. Or try and move it to the front spot, simulate the wideband, and see if you get a better reading. I don't think the AEM's can be calibrated, correct?

 

[WES_393]

No, AEM's can't be calibrated. At this point I'm considering swapping it for an Innovative. I'll check for exhaust leaks before the sensor, but from I can tell there are close to none if any. I have high idle (1000 when Link is set to 900) from a vacuum leak I can't track down. I know this might throw my MAF for a loop, but not this bad. Plus, boost leaks usually cause the engine to run rich from losing metered air, right?

I'll take some more WOT logs tomorrow and see if there's any fluctuations in the WB reading. If so, I'll try putting it to the front short term or switching AEM inputs in Link. Is there any way to have Link's MAF Comp tool work for WOT? Such as setting the open loop thresholds to 100% throttle? If not, should I add some fuel with the sliders for now just to be safe? I'm amazed myself that I'm supposedly running in the 12's without a hint of knock or misfire. Knock sensor is working perfect as well.

 

[snowborder714]

This is what you'd want to do for WOT. However, you need to have a reliable wideband reading to do it.
maftcalibrationbywbo2 [ECMTuning - wiki]

You said your gauge matches what link is reading, correct?

 

[WES_393]

I'll try that as well. Yes, Link is reading my wideband nearly the same as the gauge reads. It's off +/- .2 usually, but nothing more.

 

[josh1095]

im a NOOB but i can tell you from experimenting, adjust fuel sliders to get open loop afr's right. im saying open loop+high load factor and boost. i couldnt find the answer for shit then started messing around with mine. i was opposite and running very rich. like 8.6:1! adjusted -13.3% from 2500rpm up to 6k and now afrs are 10.9 -11.2. perfect and no knock. im running stock everything though and am still breaaking in a brand new motor. my setup is a bit different but the outcome should/will be the same if you adjust the sliders.

 

[WES_393]

I have finally gotten my A/F ratio decent. Between the A/F Est and my wideband I'm running about 10.9:1 at WOT. Well if thats the case, why is there so much knock? Should I bump the timing down in those areas? It seems to come and go as well, I can get a pull or two in with zero knock and then some keep a .7 knock retention across the entire pull. This is a fairly "average" amount of knock with my WOT pulls. I know .4-.7 isn't a huge amount of knock, but I'd like to get zero. Thanks in advance.

 

[snowborder714]

Yup, if you're trying to completely eliminate knock, just drop it 1° in those areas.

I'd recommend learning to use the DA tables for fuel and timing adjustments and not the sliders.

 

[WES_393]

Yup, if you're trying to completely eliminate knock, just drop it 1° in those areas.

I'd recommend learning to use the DA tables for fuel and timing adjustments and not the sliders.

Cool, thanks. The DA tables are bit scray looking . But I'll look into using them more, I've began to realize the sliders are pretty limited.

Any comment on the sudden drop in A/F ratio around 3100 RPM? Thats when the turbo gets to full boost, so could it be a quirk of the AFPR?

 

[snowborder714]

They're scary until you actually sit down and look at it and realize how simple they are

For the OpenLoopMaxOct table, you will just set the cells to what AFR you desire to run. Then you tune your MAF Comp sliders so that your AFRatioEst matches up with your wideband. Then if you want to change your AFR, you just go change the necessary cells in the DA table.

For the TmngMaxOct table, you just set the cells to what timing you desire. If you have other factors that affect timing (coolant temp too high, knock, etc.), then it'll adjust your desired timing. But if everything's good, then you'll get what you set.

I'd start by zeroing out your fuel sliders and putting the two Evo mod1 tables in (both fuel and timing).
evo8v3settings [ECMTuning - wiki]


As for the AFR blip, you could try adjusting the airflow at that MAF Raw value and see if you can get it to go away.

 

[rEclipserGST]

Cool, thanks. The DA tables are bit scray looking . But I'll look into using them more, I've began to realize the sliders are pretty limited.

Any comment on the sudden drop in A/F ratio around 3100 RPM? Thats when the turbo gets to full boost, so could it be a quirk of the AFPR?

Very well could be the most accurate of the AFR you are going to get when hitting that rpm & up.

 

[white92talontsi]

You are running too rich during spool up and that is where the knock is coming from at the beginning of your Last log.

Also remember that if you get knock at the beginning of the pull then 99% of the time it will knock up top as well, just the nature of the 4G63.

You also need to check for a boost leak.

 

[WES_393]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I did not know knock down low would cause it up top, but it makes sense since when I have no knock to begin with it usually ends up being a clean log.

Snowborder- Why do you suggest using the Evo 8 maps? I'm running 660's and the stock 2G MAF, isn't the stock injectors size for Evo's 560? Or is the timing map the part I want? Sorry if that's a dumb question, the fuel settings just seem pretty far off from mine.

 

[snowborder714]

The Evo fuel map is a bit leaner than the stock 2g map, and the timing map has a more smooth ramp up with a bit higher peak timing.

 

[WES_393]

I see, it seems like that's what I need! So should I keep the settings for the 660 injectors and just load the Evo 8 fuel and timing maps, or just use all of it and tune for proper A/F ratio and knock?

 

[snowborder714]

Yes, you have to keep the global % and deadtime settings. You'll want to zero out the fuel sliders and then load all the tables in.

 

[WES_393]

Yes, you have to keep the global % and deadtime settings. You'll want to zero out the fuel sliders and then load all the tables in.

Ok that makes a bit more sense. I'll give that a try tomorrow and post another log.



So I loaded the Evo maps and what a difference! The turbo spools up much faster and the butt dyno has noticed a difference. I couldn't get a decent log because it's beginning to snow around here and, even with all season tires, the wheels break loose at 4000 rpm. I've noticed a small bit of knock, but nothing like before. I'll try to get a log tomorrow when it clears up, but so far it has made a huge difference! Thanks a ton!

 

[white92talontsi]

Ok that makes a bit more sense. I'll give that a try tomorrow and post another log.



So I loaded the Evo maps and what a difference! The turbo spools up much faster and the butt dyno has noticed a difference. I couldn't get a decent log because it's beginning to snow around here and, even with all season tires, the wheels break loose at 4000 rpm. I've noticed a small bit of knock, but nothing like before. I'll try to get a log tomorrow when it clears up, but so far it has made a huge difference! Thanks a ton!

I ran the Evo 8 Mod-1 Maps on my 1g and after playing with the timing a little bit I had the car tuned to 30 psi on pump gas and absolutely 0 knock. The Evo Maps are great.

 

[snowborder714]

So I loaded the Evo maps and what a difference!

Glad to hear! Definitely post up a log when you're able to get one.

 

[WES_393]

Bringing this one back for some new suggestions. I just installed my Hallman MBC and started cranking up the boost. 10psi was perfect so I decided to dig right in to 20psi. I'm getting all sorts of funky knock. One log showed .4 retard all the way to 5K RPM, then jumped to 2 which threw the CEL and I let off. I made some adjustments (richened the mix) and got the knock down, but it still shows up randomly. I tried pulling some timing in the problem areas only to have them show up elsewhere in the RPM range.

So I'll post up a couple logs below, they were back to back with no adjustments in between. Is this phantom knock? Or is there something way off in the tune? I kept trying to fiddle with A/F ratios and it seems the richer I go the more I knock. But I'm already sitting at 11.1 for the most part according to the logs, so naturally I don't want to go any richer. And I know I should be using the DA tables and not the sliders but haven't read up on how to yet .

Also some other things worthy of noting is the inlet side of the intercooler is quite warm while the oulet is cool to the touch, so I don't think I'm knocking from intake temps. Also, there is no misfire, stuttering, or loss of power, even when the logs show knock. The car pulls great and keeps on pulling.

 

[snowborder714]

Just note though how fast and far your IntTemp's do rise at the end of your pulls. Something to keep an eye on.

I'm assuming you're running 91 octane? If so, that might be a contributing factor to why you can't run higher timing that you are. Other than that, I don't see anything major standing out at me on what would cause issues. I would zero out the sliders and make necessary adjustments in the DA tables. Here you can monitor where you're seeing knock and bump the timing down by how much knock you're seeing to get rid of it.

DA tables are fairly easy if you sit down and think about them. The value on the Y axis (vertical) is LoadFactor, which you can find as a logged value. The value on the X axis (horizontal) is obviously RPM. At any specific point in a log, you can find a cell (or range of cells) that are being used. It's basically a point and shoot - at that specific point in time, what do you want your values to be. So you can trace through the logs using the Track Datalog feature and see this and then make adjustments accordingly. These DA tables are the "goal" of your vehicle and will only happen when airflow is calibrated. If airflow is off, these goals will not be met, and that will show when you compare AFRatioEst and your wideband readings.

 

[WES_393]

Thanks for the advice. It doesn't surprise me at all that the 91 pump gas and high intake temps are giving me issues. Next payday I'll be working on boxing in the intake and doing some odds and ends to lower the bay temps. I hope that helps with those intake temps. But for now, I'll look into pulling timing in the DA tables. That explanation helps a ton! Do you think my AFRest and wideband are close enough for the load factor to be accurate?

Thanks again.

 

[snowborder714]

Load factor is independent of AFRatioEst and wideband. It will always be right no matter what.

AFRatioEst will always show what the ECU is targeting by looking at what cell(s) you hit in the DA table and then adding on top of that any input from the fuel sliders. Your goal is to adjust your MAF Comp sliders (or VE values if running SD) to get the wideband line on top of the AFRatioEst line.

For example, if you zero out the fuel sliders, set the bottom right corner of the DA fuel table to target 9, and do a WOT pull, you'll see AFRatioEst peg to 9:1 once the load factor and RPM hit the start of that block you set. However if you don't adjust any MAF Comp sliders or VE cells, the wideband will read something different. Then you can move that block to target 11 and watch AFRatioEst peg to 11 while the wideband will again read something different than the target values. Then you start to adjust MAF Comp sliders and you'll see the wideband start to read what the AFRatioEst has been saying all along.