Wideband Vs. Narrowband

[Iowa99GST]

What's the difference? Pros & Cons?

Thanks guys.

 

[MY1GDSM]

I'm sure Calan would comment something close I wasn't speaking for him.

You have a serious problem... I'm not sure what it is but give it a break an Don't take what I say out of context...

THIS IS WAY off topic but either way I'll bite...

If you would like I can burn a chip right now with my chip burner W/ tunerpro then go out to my car an Run Speed density as it sits... ???

And if I was going that route for logging I would use a Ostrich with Tunerpro Rt not Jackel

What I do or anyone else does for engine management has nothing to do with this Thread... .

And this thread should have ended with post #16

 

[Calan]

Very true. But the only thing i was implying is that it is very possible to tune with a NB and it is in fact more then just a light show. You can aim for a specific volt reading the same as you would with afr's, you wont get the same resolution but close.

But...that's not really true. NB sensors work by switching around a certain voltage centered at stoich, and the actual voltage they output is all over the place. Even by your own chart, my car could be off by up to 5 or more AFR points at any given time if I was to use NB voltage to calculate AFR at WOT. Your chart shows an output voltage of .95 from an AFR of 10:1 to a little over 14:1. So how do you possibly shoot for a target of lets say 12:1 with that?

At over 30 psi of boost and E85, I'm usually tuning within .5 AFR points... A stock (and perfectly functioning) NB sensor would be completely useless.

Completely off topic but im curious. Why are you logging with a palm and mmcd when you have link v3? I was under the impression link had cell tracking and all that fancy stuff with their logger?

Just realized you were talking to me.

I haven't used them in forever really...just forgot to change my profile. I do occasionally plug the palm in to run MMCD though if I don't feel like lugging around the laptop, although it's been a while.

I have an adapter and power hardwired in for the palm, along with a custom mounting bracket. So it's really just a matter of swapping the plugs at the fuse panel to switch between MMCD and Link.

 

[91stocker]

But...that's not really true. NB sensors work by switching around a certain voltage, and the actual voltage they output is all over the place. Even by your own chart, my car could be off by up to 3 AFR points at any given time if I was to use NB voltage to calculate AFR. At over 30 psi of boost and E85, I'm usually tuning within .5 AFR points... A stock (and perfectly functioning) NB sensor would be completely useless if I want to maintain any sort of safety margin.



Just realized you were talking to me.

I haven't used them in forever really...just forgot to change my profile. I do occasionally plug the palm in to run MMCD though if I don't feel like lugging around the laptop, although it's been a while.

I have an adapter and power hardwired in for the palm, along with a custom mounting bracket. So it's really just a matter of swapping the plugs at the fuse panel to switch between MMCD and Link.

Thanks, i was just curious. Nice sounds like a sweet palm set up. A mounted palm is super convenient.

 

[3kgt2nv]

Toss on a different printed faceplate and you have 100% functional rice.

That almost made me spit soda at my work comp.

 

[Calan]

That almost made me spit soda at my work comp.

Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all night... or until I run out of Parrot Bay.

If you're gonna have multi-colored blinky lights, they might as well tell you something useful right?

 

[91stocker]

But...that's not really true. NB sensors work by switching around a certain voltage centered at stoich, and the actual voltage they output is all over the place. Even by your own chart, my car could be off by up to 5 or more AFR points at any given time if I was to use NB voltage to calculate AFR at WOT. Your chart shows an output voltage of .95 from an AFR of 10:1 to a little over 14:1. So how do you possibly shoot for a target of lets say 12:1 with that?

At over 30 psi of boost and E85, I'm usually tuning within .5 AFR points... A stock (and perfectly functioning) NB sensor would be completely useless.

Yea they seem to run on/off when in closed loop and jump around alot. The only readings that mattered were at WOT which seemed pretty consistent. The chart was based from stoich. But someone borrowing a sniffer and setting it from there for a base is ideal. Which at the time .92v was the target ,checked out to be 11.5:1 afr. It still isnt completely accurate and watching timing is important.

Yea i completely agree 30psi and e85 are completely out of the safc tuning realm so a NB would be worthless.

Sorry to rant on, NB and safc is very crude. But a 14b can run down most peoples big money builds. Basic works haha

 

[MY1GDSM]

Based on all Your responses still don't understand what All has been said... Or how the Senor works...

 

[SpawnedX]

Eh?

Let's re-evaluate this whole question, yet again...a million times over. Each time it is posted there is one person who will try to argue for the worth of a Christmas tree gauge...err narrowband.

OP, a narrowband is absolutely, 100% worthless, and in the "good ole days" people were tuning off EGT more than their pretty lights. This post is starting to become more and more of a "give me an excuse to be cheap" thread.

 

[91stocker]

I'm sure Calan would comment something close I wasn't speaking for him.

You have a serious problem... I'm not sure what it is but give it a break an Don't take what I say out of context...

THIS IS WAY off topic but either way I'll bite...

If you would like I can burn a chip right now with my chip burner W/ tunerpro then go out to my car an Run Speed density as it sits... ???

And if I was going that route for logging I would use a Ostrich with Tunerpro Rt not Jackel

What I do or anyone else does for engine management has nothing to do with this Thread... .

And this thread should have ended with post #16

Whoa whoa, wasnt trying to push any buttons here. In all honesty it could have been locked after post #1, because we all knew what the answer was going to be.

And sure get the tunerpro running and sell the link and buy some 15's and slicks haha. Btw i dont know of anyone successfully logging a 1g with turnerpro yet. If you can post a link to someone who has id love to see because the tunerpro logging ui looks pretty nice.

Eh?

Let's re-evaluate this whole question, yet again...a million times over. Each time it is posted there is one person who will try to argue for the worth of a Christmas tree gauge...err narrowband.

OP, a narrowband is absolutely, 100% worthless, and in the "good ole days" people were tuning off EGT more than their pretty lights. This post is starting to become more and more of a "give me an excuse to be cheap" thread.

Isnt the thread called "narrowband vs wideband" ???

No reason for people to get hostile. Everyone knows what the answer is. So why not talk about the other side of the debate here(the NB). Never once did i say it was the better option or that the op should use nb. Just putting out there that it is more then a christmas tree.

Another thing i was never talking about NB gauges and the op never mentioned anything about gauges either. The topic imo was about the sensors themselves and the info they can give.

 

[ramsack]

I know someone who believed you could tune with a narrowband. He used 680cc injectors, a MAF translator to tune, a 680 EEPROM chip, a narrowband gauge, and an SC61 @ 25 psi constantly beating it. When he sold it and the new owner tore into the engine, a piston had a hole in it.

 

[Calan]

Isnt the thread called "narrowband vs wideband" ???

No reason for people to get hostile.

I agree that it should remain civil. But to be fair, it did sound like you were saying that tuning with a NB was perfectly legitimate. You have to expect a bit of flaming for that.

 

[Iowa99GST]

Ah, I knew this thread would turn into a big argument . I'm not looking for an "excuse to be cheap" Spawned, I honestly just didn't know what the differences were, or that Widebands were so much more beneficial. As I said, I bought the car with a NB and an SAFC II, didn't know if this set up would be comparable to a Wideband or not.

Since the general consensus at this point is obviously that the WB is better, the next question that comes to mind is do I even need my SAFC II? And do I need link to make use of a WB, or is it just something that makes it even more worthwhile?

Thanks for all the quick responses.

 

[kenuwine4g63]

Ah, I knew this thread would turn into a big argument . I'm not looking for an "excuse to be cheap" Spawned, I honestly just didn't know what the differences were, or that Widebands were so much more beneficial. As I said, I bought the car with a NB and an SAFC II, didn't know if this set up would be comparable to a Wideband or not.

Since the general consensus at this point is obviously that the WB is better, the next question that comes to mind is do I even need my SAFC II? And do I need link to make use of a WB, or is it just something that makes it even more worthwhile?

Thanks for all the quick responses.

Man my car has a NB but its tied to the ecu rather than the o2 sensor on the down pipe. But Since i hanvt been able to afford a WB, ive just stuck with this. It tells u when u run rich or lean, just not how rich or how lean. Thats how i take it......

 

[Calan]

Ah, I knew this thread would turn into a big argument . I'm not looking for an "excuse to be cheap" Spawned, I honestly just didn't know what the differences were, or that Widebands were so much more beneficial. As I said, I bought the car with a NB and an SAFC II, didn't know if this set up would be comparable to a Wideband or not.

Since the general consensus at this point is obviously that the WB is better, the next question that comes to mind is do I even need my SAFC II? And do I need link to make use of a WB, or is it just something that makes it even more worthwhile?

Thanks for all the quick responses.

I think you're confusing monitoring your engine with tuning. As mentioned ad nauseum, a narrow band gauge is pretty much useless for monitoring the AFR that you are running. A WB however will tell you exactly what AFR you are running.

The SAFC is a tuning device that will let you adjust your tune to get to a different AFR (to a point) depending on your setup.

 

[Iowa99GST]

I think you're confusing monitoring your engine with tuning. As mentioned ad nauseum, a narrow band gauge is pretty much useless for monitoring the AFR that you are running. A WB however will tell you exactly what AFR you are running.

The SAFC is a tuning device that will let you adjust your tune to get to a different AFR (to a point) depending on your setup.

So an SAFC would still be beneficial with the WB to tune the car, but can't you tune through link with a palm or a laptop?

I'm assuming that if this is the case the latter option would also be more accurate/easier to do as this is what I hear most people talk about. With that being said, do you need an SAFC with link, would there be any purpose for it?

 

[Calan]

So an SAFC would still be beneficial with the WB to tune the car, but can't you tune through link with a palm or a laptop?

I'm assuming that if this is the case the latter option would also be more accurate/easier to do as this is what I hear most people talk about. With that being said, do you need an SAFC with link, would there be any purpose for it?

Ok.. that confused the hell out of me.

The MAF-T, SAFC, DSMLink, etc. are devices that can be used to tune your car. In other words, they are devices that let you change the air to fuel ratio, timing advance, and other things that affect the way your car performs. The MAF-T and SAFC devices are "piggy back" devices...meaning they don't really do anything except lie to the ECU about how much air is entering the engine, and therefore changing how it adds fuel and timing. ECMlink (DSMLink) and other tuning solutions actually allow changes to the ECU code itself so you have full control over what is happening with the engine.

A wideband (WB) is a device that monitors your air to fuel ratio (AFR) and tells you whether you are running rich or lean, depending on what target AFR you are shooting for. A narrow band sensor (NB - the stock O2 sensor) is a device used by the factory ECU to determine if the engine is operating around a specific AFR (14.7:1) during normal cruise and idle operation.

Any of the tuning solutions can take advantage of a wideband sensor; the difference is in whether they actually log that data or if it's just a simple gauge that you watch while doing a WOT pull. Either way, you use the WB data to tell you if you are hitting a desired AFR, and then use the tuning device or software to adjust your ECU to hit that target AFR.

 

[Iowa99GST]

Lmao sorry if I confused you, by link I was referring to DSMlink if that helps. I think you answered my question pretty much....

I knew an SAFC was a tuning device, didn't know how it stood up to DSMlink though, so then if I go with DSMlink, I wouldn't need the SAFC correct?

Am I able to log with an SAFC or just monitor what happens during a WOT pull?

 

[Calan]

Lmao sorry if I confused you, by link I was referring to DSMlink if that helps. I think you answered my question pretty much....

I knew an SAFC was a tuning device, didn't know how it stood up to DSMlink though, so then if I go with DSMlink, I wouldn't need the SAFC correct?

Am I able to log with an SAFC or just monitor what happens during a WOT pull?

If you go with DSMLink (technically called ECMLink now), you don't need the SAFC at all. ECMLink provides both the logging and the tuning ability and gives you complete control over every aspect of your engine.

You still need a WB though regardless of what you are using to talk with the ECU, as that is the sensor and logic module that determines what AFR you are running at.

With ECMLink and a good WB (and preferably a map sensor so you can log boost), you have everything you need to fully tune and control your engine.

Other software gives you similar results, but personally I'm a fan of ECMlink so I'll let others speak to those other solutions.

 

[Iowa99GST]

Ok cool so I had the right understanding then I just wanted to make sure I wasn't confused . Excuse me for a stupid question here, MAP sensor.... Not familiar with that one.

Also, is there a software I would have to buy or does that all come with the DSMlink, or ECMlink now I guess, package?

Thanks.

Edit: let me clarify, I meant to make use of a laptop for logging, as far as the question about additional software possibly being needed.

 

[Calan]

Ok cool so I had the right understanding then I just wanted to make sure I wasn't confused . Excuse me for a stupid question here, MAP sensor.... Not familiar with that one.

Also, is there a software I would have to buy or does that all come with the DSMlink, or ECMlink now I guess, package?

Thanks.

Edit: let me clarify, I meant to make use of a laptop for logging, as far as the question about additional software possibly being needed.

MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure

Not to be patronizing here, but for general info...

There's a computer in your car (ECU) that tells the engine what air-to-fuel ratio to shoot for under varying operating conditions. Unless you put the pedal to the floor, that ratio is 14.7:1... which means a ratio of 14.7 grams (or moles, or pounds, or metric tons, or whatever you want to use) of air to to 1 of the same measurement of fuel. In a nutshell, that ratio is determined by tables in the ECU based on RPM and engine load. Unless you are flooring it, that ratio is 14.7:1. If you go WOT (wide open throttle), the ratio changes depending on engine RPM and how much load the engine is seeing.

NB sensors are designed to measure AFR around a very narrow range centered on 14.7:1 which happens during idle and normal off-boost crusing. Wideband sensors measure true AFR over a much wider range, specifically at WOT where we really want to know what is going on.

The ECU typically commands an AFR of 9.5:1 or so when you mash the go pedal and go WOT, as defined by look-up tables in the computer. A wideband sensor will show you that this is actually happening. But you still need a way to change what the ECU wants to see...that is where tuning software comes into play.

ECMLink replaces a chip in the ECU with a custom chip, and allows you to change those hard-coded lookup tables along with many other things. If you would rather your engine shoot for an AFR of 12.5 at 3000rpm under a load of 3.1, you can. You can tell the computer to target a specific AFR under different conditions as well as many other parameters such as ignition advance, etc.

ECMlink and most other tuning solutions include both the hardware (a chip replacement in the ECU) as well as downloadable software that can be installed on a laptop or any other computer. In fact, you can download and install the ECMLink V3 software and view logs from other ECMLink users for free, on virtually any Windows based PC.

 

[Iowa99GST]

MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure

ECMlink and most other tuning solutions include both the hardware (a chip replacement in the ECU) as well as downloadable software that can be installed on a laptop or any other computer. In fact, you can download and install the ECMLink V3 software and view logs from other ECMLink users for free, on virtually any Wondows based PC.

That's all I was actually unsure of from my last quetion.. Thank you!

 

[91stocker]

calan nailed it. He just saved you hours of searching. props for that.

 

[CamCommand]

hi im a newb and tried to understand what everyone is talking about..? so i have safc, wideband, and a logger and what a/f ratio do i shoot for at wot?

 

[Calan]

hi im a newb and tried to understand what everyone is talking about..? so i have safc, wideband, and a logger and what a/f ratio do i shoot for at wot?

Not to be rude, but shoot for 11.0 on pump gas... and you have lots of searching and reading to do.

 

[CamCommand]

Not to be rude, but shoot for 11.0 on pump gas... and you have lots of searching and reading to do.

i know thats all ive been doing and someone always says something different..

and also where is the best place to put the wideband bung?