Why water injection is the best mod I've done in years...

[Joesmoke]

86MCSS,

I learned about running straight methanol from the buick crowd. That really got me motivated to build the system.

I first started the sytem with straight water. Really felt great!
Then moved to windshield washer fluid. Not as impressed as straight water but still felt good

Then ran with straight methanol and had some incredible runs. Power was very impressive. As with all talons, then something happened and went back to straight water to rule out it wasnt the methanol. I have ironed things out and will probably try straight meth again.

There was a very long discussion on what worked best to inject on the turbo buick board.

The final decision was that water has a larger ability to absorb heat over methanol (ability to suppress detonation and run higher boost and timing) BUT, the buick guys swore that straight methanol was the only way to go and DAMN the engineers and the laws of chemistry!

And, in there defence, many of their members ran much better using straight meth then a water mix, so they did have real world examples.

Everyone agreed though that methanol:
1. Does have an FUEL octane level that water does not have
2. Methanol did not have the ability to cool as well, but did cool faster.

The best thing for people thinking about injecting, but are experimenters and would like to try different stuff, is to build the sytem to support straight meth so you can experiment from there.

 

[86MCSS]

Yeah I also reccommend that they use a good nozzle that turns the water, alky, methonal or whatever they use into a fine mist. This is very important. I have seen home made alky setups that just had a nozzle into the throttle body and it bogged down there entire system when the alky was injected. I suggested a fine mist NOS [tm] brand nozzle and it worked great.

 

[ken inn]

couple of things to add here. my first install was one nozzle, right after the turbo. i also installed a simple switch to activate it. rev the motor, feel the pipe(it will be very hot to the touch), engage the wi, and you will feel it get cold. so, if you are at a stop, if you rev the motor and engage the wi, the entire intake, including the intercooler, gets nice and cool. also, one of the benefits of wi is the cleaning. propane and nitrous dont do this. after a couple of months, check the tops of the pistons, they will be all clean and free of carbon. spark plugs will have just a light haze on them. if you ever pull the head, all the valves, combustion chamber, etc will be spotless. if you add a bit of alcohol, the entire intake tract and the inside of the intercooler get squeaky clean. a couple notes of caution. a new shurflo pump is 78 bucks or less(i have seen them on sale for 39 bucks). and new aquamist pump is 300 bucks, and they WILL fail. the blue windshield washer fluid, not all of them use distilled water. i run a clear fuel filter inline before the pump. i was getting the blue stuff and it clogged up the filter so bad, i couldnt get it apart, and had to throw it away. it left a deposit very much like hard water. the filter did work, cause none of it got thru, but no fluid did, either.

 

[Joesmoke]

As for nozzles, I use the mcmaster-car oil burner nozzles. Same as many other DIY kits. Excellent spray pattern and dirt cheap! Also, high quality brass.

I also have a moment switch hooked in. With the engine idling and engaging straight water, the TB elbow cooled off nicely. Running straight meth, and the the thing got damned cold instantly.

I have also started to add more straight meth back to my tank off washer fluid mix. Already starting to feel a little more kick.

Will continue to experiment.

 

[44pirate]

I was running 50%H2O and 50%denatured ALC. Tonight I'm gonna be running straight methanol. I lowered the boost for a couple of see how it works. Did notice my EGT's were lower but this could coinside with lower boost.
I have the SMC Enterprise Kit. Got it from Fullthrottle

 

[D@nno]

Anyone running nitrous nozzles and jets for water. If so what size.

 

[86MCSS]

As for nozzles, I use the mcmaster-car oil burner nozzles. Same as many other DIY kits. Excellent spray pattern and dirt cheap! Also, high quality brass.

I also have a moment switch hooked in. With the engine idling and engaging straight water, the TB elbow cooled off nicely. Running straight meth, and the the thing got damned cold instantly.

I have also started to add more straight meth back to my tank off washer fluid mix. Already starting to feel a little more kick.

Will continue to experiment.

Where can I purchase these mcmaster-car oil burner nozzles you speak of? I would also like a link as I tried looking them up in google and got nothing.....

EDIT...i found it...

 

[TWEAKD4]

http://www.mcmaster.com/
Some part # for McMaster-Carr nozzles on http://www.turbomirage.com/water3.html

 

[jeff01]

I have have added WI from Coolingmist. Good quality at a good price. Customer service was right there. This is one of the best mods I have ever done. I currently run 50/50.

 

[lowridin2g]

this and a wideband will be my next mods around chistmas time. after that im not doing naymore modding to the 7bolt. hoping to pick up a 6 bolt block soon and start building it up. opefully ill have the $$$$ to get one of slowboys race heads to go with it

 

[AL92]

I recently also ordered the deluxe dual stage kit from www.coolingmist.com.Heard nothing but good review about his service and product and didn't feel like messing around making my own.Hoping it works out good for me.Will possibly be testing it on a stock sidemount first and then better fmic later.

 

[laser92awd]

Water Injection

Just a follow-up from my original post...

It's been almost 2 years now since I installed my water injection and started this thread.

Everything is still working great. The system has been consistant and effective.

I do have to back the boost down a little bit in the hot Florida summer, but Fall through Spring pretty much lets me run as much boost as I want with no knock (I'm still on a sidemount).

The only tuning issue I've been meaning to deal with is that I have a brief delay off the line before I start seeing the results of the water injection. If I make back to back passes there is no delay. But if I stop the car or drive normally for a while I will see a bit of knock when I first get into it until the WI kicks in (split second). I'm trying to figure out if I need to lower my boost activation point (doubt it), or if somehow there is air getting into the lines between the pump and the nozzles or before the pump.

Overall I will still say this has been one of the best mods I've done. Fairly easy to install, not too expensive, and it sure does work great!

 

[4wd-Eclipse]

The only tuning issue I've been meaning to deal with is that I have a brief delay off the line before I start seeing the results of the water injection. If I make back to back passes there is no delay. But if I stop the car or drive normally for a while I will see a bit of knock when I first get into it until the WI kicks in (split second). I'm trying to figure out if I need to lower my boost activation point (doubt it), or if somehow there is air getting into the lines between the pump and the nozzles or before the pump.

Are u using check valve just before the jet/jets?


Overall I will still say this has been one of the best mods I've done. Fairly easy to install, not too expensive, and it sure does work great! [/QUOTE]


I TOTALLY agree with u, it's one of the best mods for any turbo car

 

[chicagoboostin]

alright i read the fourm and am really intersted on adding water injection to my current setup... theres just a few things i dont understand, i know that you cant hydrolock your motor.. but what is preventing this? i mean if your injecting water into the tb elbow therefore water/meth gets into the inatke manifold and then into your cyl. or is it just to fine of a mist? also when using water injection do u just flipa siwtch and its on all the time or when does it engage? t/y

-ryan

 

[laser92awd]

The nozzles are very small. They spray a very fine mist. The system is activated by boost pressure so that it is only running at WOT. The water bottle is located lower than the nozzle so there is no way for water to get into the engine unless the pump is pressurized, which is only at high boost.

If the pump failed or you ran out of water during WOT the knock sensor would bring down timing automatically. If the pump got stuck on, you could theoretically have a problem. There are more expensive electronic injection kits that monitor those kinds of issues. In reality there are lots of things that "could" fail on the car at any time killing the engine or even the car all at once. (Timing belt, oil pump, ball joint snapping, transfer case seizing, etc.) If you are worried buy the electronic monitoring setup.

You choose your nozzle sprayer size by using a formula, basically you want to size the jet based on 15% water to 85% fuel @ 80% duty cycle of your injectors:

Injector size (cc) X .8 ..... example 550cc X .8 = 440cc flow rate @ 80% duty cycle
flow rate X 4 injectors = rate per minute ..... example 440 X 4 = 1760 (cc's)
15% of rate per minute = nozzle flow needed ..... example 1760 X .15 = 264

Take your number and go to aquamist's web site:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/sl/plist/pics/jets/jets.html


Our example of 264 would require an Aquamist size .6 jet if using the race pump. Of course you could always start with a smaller nozzle to test things out, or if you want to run less than 15% flow rate. You could also use multiple nozzles placed at different locations, as long as the total adds up to your total nozzle flow rate. I do this on my car because I still have a sidemount IC. So I have one of the nozzles plumbed into the IC inlet, and the other in the upper IC pipe.

The water evaprorates virtually instantly into the hot intake charge air, making it more dense which lowers intake air temperatures.

alright i read the fourm and am really intersted on adding water injection to my current setup... theres just a few things i dont understand, i know that you cant hydrolock your motor.. but what is preventing this? i mean if your injecting water into the tb elbow therefore water/meth gets into the inatke manifold and then into your cyl. or is it just to fine of a mist? also when using water injection do u just flipa siwtch and its on all the time or when does it engage? t/y

-ryan

 

[BluemeanieTSi]

alright i read the fourm and am really intersted on adding water injection to my current setup... theres just a few things i dont understand, i know that you cant hydrolock your motor.. but what is preventing this? i mean if your injecting water into the tb elbow therefore water/meth gets into the inatke manifold and then into your cyl. or is it just to fine of a mist? also when using water injection do u just flipa siwtch and its on all the time or when does it engage? t/y

-ryan

in reality it would take a lot of standing water to hydrolock the motor

 

[ahains]

FYI - I put together a water injection system for about $100 total.

I used this pump:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/...isplay?storeId=6970&productId=357081&R=357081
It was 39.99 when I ordered it, but it looks like it has gone up to 49.99 now. I adjusted it to turn the pressure up. I talked about this on the diy-wi list:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DSM_water_injection/

I should take pics and do a write-up someday, but I'm not sure if I'll get around to it.
I'd at least like to compile a comprehensive parts list for the $100 setup..

I used mcmaster-carr nozzles, and plumbing pieces. I have a bunch of notes, but I'd have to go through to compare what I actually ordered compared to what I was originally planning. I know I had to change the brass plumbing connectors I was using a few times.. those mcmaster-carr nozzles stick out a ways past the threads. I still haven't figured out the fittings that everyone else says works fine. I just ended up screwing it in a little ways and jb welding it to the fitting. I figured the fitting & nozzle were like $5 total, so I don't mind if I have to buy a new fitting if I want to change my nozzle size

Take care,
Adrian

 

[laser92awd]

I used mcmaster-carr nozzles, and plumbing pieces. I have a bunch of notes, but I'd have to go through to compare what I actually ordered compared to what I was originally planning. I know I had to change the brass plumbing connectors I was using a few times.. those mcmaster-carr nozzles stick out a ways past the threads. I still haven't figured out the fittings that everyone else says works fine. I just ended up screwing it in a little ways and jb welding it to the fitting. I figured the fitting & nozzle were like $5 total, so I don't mind if I have to buy a new fitting if I want to change my nozzle size

That extra $$$ you spend with the Aquamist simply gives the advantage of everything being in a kit. I mean everything right down to the tap needed to install the nozzle into your pipe. Everything works together in a system. The company is reputable and responds quickly to technical questions.

Don't get me wrong, I am *sure* there are ways to do this setup for less money than an Aquamist. I'm just saying that if somebody just wants to buy it all in one box and hook it up that the Aquamist is a simple way to go. (I am not affiliated with them in any way and truth be known I bought my kit used on ebay so I didn't even buy it retail myself).

 

[V8HAHA]

Can someone who has made thier own kit post up all the pieces needed? I am really interested, but don't want to pay 500+ dollars.

 

[BluemeanieTSi]

stock dsm fuel pump (2g) has stainless internals i ran one for 2 years wiht no problems at all, hobbes prssure switch from napa a stock dsm (i think fuel selenoid i used) as a shutoff switch and i used nozzles from mcmaster carr

 

[Bohrn]

wow, Bluemeanie, that would sure be a cheap system!! Hey if it works too, good job.

I for one went sort of inbetween. Shur-Flo pump(good quality, meant for water/alcohol and alot cheaper than an Aquamist one), SMC solenoid(lower cost but very nice and well engineered) and genuine Aquamist check valve and nozzles. Other parts include SMC pressure lines and the stock rear washer tank.

as for the problem with your system not coming on right away if it has sat, I bet you have too much distance from your check valve and your nozzle, or a bad check valve.

 

[lowridin2g]

where can i purchase straight methanol? im using windshield washer fluis now, havent experimented with straight water yet.

 

[laser92awd]

Delay problem figured out...

I had mentioned that I was getting a split second delay before the WI would kick in fully. Turns out this was my fault (usually is).

The way my setup is hooked up is this:

Pump > T

T up to upper IC pipe
T down to IC

The upper T tubing was staying full of water.

But the lower T tubing was empty.

Turns out my lower tubing wasn't installed properly (by me) and the water was gravity draining into the intercooler (just the water in the T tubing, not all the way back to the pump).

I simply had to adjust my line so that it is lower than the nozzle (a little "U" just below the nozzle). This way gravity holds the line full of water right up before the nozzle. I hope that makes sense - since the nozzle is lower than the pump, the tubing needs to drop just below the level of the nozzle before attaching to avoid draining out through the nozzle between runs.

Jonathan

 

[Bohrn]

put a check valve in it. Not expensive, keeps pressure in the line, and no chance of that happening again.

 

[RallyxDave]

Can someone who has made thier own kit post up all the pieces needed? I am really interested, but don't want to pay 500+ dollars.

Here's a link to the system I put together for my Talon - http://www.4x4racecar.net/water_injection.htm

Last year I had it dynoed and it put down 310awhp & 290 ft/lbs with a small 16g, Alamo SMIC, 20psi on pump gas. No way I could have run that without water injection...