Who has the FASTEST n/t car on here?

[guitaraholic]

Well, I am definatly not saying mine is the fastest or even fast, but I did get a 6.7 0-60 time (timed it with a GPS that is accurate as hell, timer goes once movement is sensed), My mods are listed
Just thought I would post a time,, thanks,, (but its a true time)

93/NT Talon ES

- Hacked Air Can (working on making a CAI)
- Turbo Cams (going to get them reground soon)
- UDP
- Removed the Balance Shafts
- Headers
- Ported and mildly polished head (PITA to DIY!!)
- Shaved head to increase compression ratio
- Weight reduction 100lbs (A/C, Spare, ect)
- Engine Fully Balanced
- Advanced the timing a bit
and got a time of 6.7 seconds,, NO JOKE... in fact, that's with my hefty 200lb friend in the passenger side and a FULL tank of gas)

 

[jdm93dsm]

how much did u get shaved off of your head?

Im almost done with mine... im still looking for a ported intake manifold but right now this is what i have done.

K&N cold air intake
removed balance shafts
AEM adjustable timing gears
stage 3 crower turbo cams
titanium retainers and springs
headers
removed cat (thinking about running a strait pipe.)
toga high vol. oil pump

I can't wait to see how it turns out.

 

[94Talon2]

I went to the track in the fall and ran a 15.8, 15.9 and 15.8.
My mods are, udp, 93 turbo cams, intake, exhaust, iridium plugs, wires, and act 2100.

I'm going to rebuild my head soon, and I also want to get a thin head gasket or shave my head a bit, I was thinking .010". I also want to remove the B-shafts. Did you guys notice a difference? Do you recommend taking the b shafts out?

Thanks

 

[Lowerd1]

Originally posted by projectturbo99 Factory freak My ass
no such FU#@ING thing, stop saying the BS.

There are such things as Factory Freaks. This qoute is for the Grand Prix but holds true to ALL CARS.

http://www.zzperformance.com/zzp/info/info_factory_freak.htm

What Makes a Factory Freak?
Did you ever wonder how 2 people with the seemingly exact same car could run such different ¼ mile times? Well here is a peek into why that happens and what you can do to turn your GP into a factory freak.

There are many reasons that some people with similar mods run much faster than others in the ¼ mile. Some you can control while others you can’t.

Driver skill
This takes practice. Running a 2.0 60’ instead of a 2.3 60’ will drop you from a 14.9 to a 14.5 in the ¼ mile. This is because time dropped from your 60’ equals a larger gain that that amount off of your ET. For tips on improving your launch click here.

Driver weight, believe it or not but some member are over 200 lbs heavier than others. This means that the greatest improvement in this category would come from them going on a diet!

Track preparation
While some feel that you can’t do anything to your car and call it stock others do things like remove the spare tire and headlight. Others will race with only a small amount of fuel in the car. For tips on track prepping you car click here.

Some tracks spray there launching section with VHT TrackBite, which greatly contributes to a car launching ability.

The temperature of a track attributes to traction as well. Here is where warm weather can actually help you. A hot track sticks like glue.

Weather
The temperature of the outside is very critical. Members who live in the Southern states know that it is very difficult if not impossible to run the types of time that us Northern guys do. Cold air is more dense, holds more oxygen, resists detonation and usually is less humid than warm air.

The humidity of air is another factor. Humid air does not hold as much oxygen and is a bad thing for going fast.

The barometer can make more difference that a pulley swap in some cases. Trying to race in altitude is all but futile if you are trying to break some records. Even at the same track the air pressure can vary from day to day.
Now on to the interesting stuff. Why is it that some cars just make more hp than others when they have the exact same mods and are in the exact same atmosphere conditions?

The Supercharger
When Eaton made the M90 they decided for one reason or another to machine the first ½" of the inlet of the SC housing. Unfortunately because of mass production this machining process isn’t perfect and some housings come out better than others. Below is a picture and you can see just how off center the machining was done on this particular blower.

Eaton blower housings seem to prefer certain rotors to others. This means that when you take 2 brand new M90s one will inevitably produce slightly more boost than the other. Even when you switch housings from one to another there is no way to predict whether you will gain some output or lose a little.

The bypass plate varies from blower to blower as well. On some SC’s the bypass seals much better than others producing more efficient operation and decreased outlet temps with higher boost.

Exhaust
The front exhaust manifold does not have large holes in it that just totally cover the head exhaust outlets. Instead they are shaped in a way that makes their placement affect performance. There is a little play in the mounting holes causing performance to vary from vehicle to vehicle. The front manifold is made of cast iron and this means that flow will vary just a little from car to car.

The rear manifold is made of tubes kind of like a header. These are put together very fast and while doing the work on our ported manifolds we noticed that some cars were setup much better than others. This includes how far the #6 tube extends into the main piece and how far the O2 sensor mount extends into the factory header.
Gaskets
The intake manifold gaskets seem to vary wildly from car to car and this can make a big difference in how your ports will flow.

The TB gasket is sometimes misaligned with how your blower has been machined.

Checking your copper exhaust manifold gaskets for carbon deposits can reveal a misalignment.

The HEAD GASKET is very critical on a GTP. In pulling a few heads off we noticed a few things about the L67. One is that the gaskets are not perfectly round. They have a strange shape to them. One can only speculate that this is to contour to the shape of the head. The other thing you notice is that each car’s gaskets look a little different and sometimes on certain cylinders the gasket come right up to the edge of the cylinder wall. This can cause detonation in a big way. The edge of the head gasket is very thin metal and doesn’t have a sink to dissipate the heat like the head does. A head gasket can glow red hot if it overhangs into the combustion chamber even a few thousandths. We believe that this is the biggest difference between GPs as to why some have so much more KR than others.

Rocker arms
GM states that the rocker arm ratio on a Series II 3800 is 1.60. Now that we have modified rockers available we know how much difference in hp a different ratio can make. From the factory the rockers do not always come exactly 1.60, after measuring many we have found that each stock rocker’s ratio seems to be slightly different.

Race weight
A stock GTP weighs about 3500 lbs. If you do some calculations for weight effect on GP performance you will find that every 8 pounds of weight on a stock GP is equal to around .01 in the ¼ mile. With the variances in driver weight, different levels of fuel or other fluids, and some people removing all the extra stuff in there cars times can vary as much as .3 or more. With a large stereo these differences can be even greater.

Camshaft
After measuring the lobes on a cam we found that they can vary from lobe to lobe. This means that some cams are going to inevitably be ‘better’ than others.

Tires
Worn tires can sometimes be a good thing. They are slightly shorter and if they are less than a year old the rubber is still soft enough to give good traction. This added gearing as well as the tire being lighter will help with launching and trap speeds. Using different brands of tires can amplify the above differences.

PCM
For some reason yet unknown to us certain PCM’s seem to reset and favor higher timing than others. Why this is we haven’t figured out yet but without doubt it could cause one car to have more hp than another.

Knock sensors
Every Series II 3800 has two knock sensors, one on the front of the engine and one on the rear. Thanks to the wonders of mass production every knock sensor is going to have sensitivity variances. Because the knock sensors are used in determining timing this alone can cause vast differences in total advance.

Fuel
Most people have a brand of gas they like to buy. For me it’s Shell but depending on where you buy your gas you are going to end up with a little higher or a little lower octane of fuel.

Oil
Believe it or not but oil can make a difference. Using synthetic oil will reduce friction in your engine. This has many benefits including increased power output. The Viscosity of your oil will also determine how fast your lifters bleed down.

ZZP is a performance parts maker and has run numerous test on the GP engines to find this out.

Sorry to reply to a post that was on page 1 but I had to clear that up.

Also remember just like their are Factory Freaks, there are factory Slugs also, or so called Monday cars when the workers were just too hung over to really care about the work they did.

 

[jdm93dsm]

Originally posted by 94Talon2
I went to the track in the fall and ran a 15.8, 15.9 and 15.8.
My mods are, udp, 93 turbo cams, intake, exhaust, iridium plugs, wires, and act 2100.

I'm going to rebuild my head soon, and I also want to get a thin head gasket or shave my head a bit, I was thinking .010". I also want to remove the B-shafts. Did you guys notice a difference? Do you recommend taking the b shafts out?

Thanks

I removed mine but mines not running yet, i ordered a damper UDP in replace of the shafts so the vibration dosent tear my engine apart. When i removed the shafts i noticed they were quite heavy and im sure it put alil more strain on the engine... i would say there would be a difference... maybe not much but i hear there is. I would recoomend taking them out as long as you have something to damper the vibrations the bearings in your crank will wear quick.

 

[94Talon2]

Yes that is a concern especialy since I have a UDP on the crank with no dampaner.

What do you mean:
"i ordered a damper UDP in replace of the shafts so the vibration dosent tear my engine apart"

In place of the balancer shafts?

 

[jdm93dsm]

ooops, i didnt mean "in replace". But just get a UDP w/ a damper.... because vibration will cause it to unbalance w/o the shafts or a damper.

 

[94Talon2]

I don't think you can get a udp with a damper, can you?
If so let me know.

 

[jdm93dsm]

yes, i just ordered one. its a little expensive. check www.machv.com and go to the engine subcategory and its in there. its made by a company bushur or somthing.

 

[Fotowntalon]

Am I reviving a 6 year old thread? HELL YES! Why? Cause upon going through the pain in the ass process of removing an extra IM to get it ready for next year i got frusterated and came across this thread. All you noobs and pros should read this to see how far we have come. We had a very experienced men Doug99RS and DR1665 saying that:

I was most definitely being sarcastic. I really don't see any n/a 420A getting in to the 12's without some serious sponsorship, tons of motor work, and a stripped out chassis. I really don't see the average joe getting any lower than 14 flat without moderate to heavy mods as well. That's my opinion based on what I've seen at the track and of the stories I KNOW to be true. Most everything else is just bench racing and until we see some time slips there's really no need to keep asking about times. Just go look at the 1/4 mile times we have posted on here. They got posted because they were backed up with slips or from people who we all know aren't lying.
Doug

and

The only way my all motor monster is going to break into the high 13s is with a military surplus solid fuel booster rocket in the hatch or if Bill Hahn is pushing my car down the track with his.
And I'm throwing some serious hardware into the mix.

Now in this day and age we have had 4 420a's in the in 14s, at least another 2 guys getting ready to be added to that list. 1 in the LOW 13's and mark is knocking on the door of high 12's. Its amazing, in 6 years how all our thoughts and views have changed. Better yet most these cars are owned by just regular hard working UNsponsored guys.

I hope this thread serves as an inspiration to everyone so we can keep pushing the platform!

p.s.
All those old noobs who 'easily ran 14's' yet couldn't find their time slips or weren't really NA gave me a good laugh to. Notice how quick they dissapeared

 

[PurpSalad]

i read somewhere up there some kid screaming about puttin 5 grand into his car?


are you retarted? go buy a gsx


not hating on n/a at all btw, just saying. if ya got 5 grand to put into an n/a....

 

[pgarland]

i read somewhere up there some kid screaming about puttin 5 grand into his car?


are you retarted? go buy a gsx


not hating on n/a at all btw, just saying. if ya got 5 grand to put into an n/a....

*retarded

The majority of this thread was written back in 2003-2004, when our cars were much closer to new and consequently a little bit more expensive (with a much higher resale value I might add). Taking that into consideration, I don't understand your logic here, what you're saying is that because someone wants to spend 5 grand on a car they love in order to improve it, they are retarded? Or are they retarded just because the motor they want to build is the 420A (a thoroughly tried, tested, and proven platform)?

If it's the first one, I have to ask you if that seems the most logical comment to make on a website with the word "tuners" right there in the address.

If it's the second one, then I fear your time here in the 420A section of this board will be somewhat short lived.


And Fotown...good call reviving this one, threads like these help give a little perspective on how things change, and also give us a better idea on just what level of effort, blood, sweat, and tears you guys (Bullett, allmotormike, you, etc.) have invested in your cars. Gives us all something to shoot for!

 

[dalesmitsu]

bulletdsm

 

[2GbTalonGuy]

This thread wreaks of bench racing.

 

[Fotowntalon]

it does have a lot of benchracing, but at the same time, most those people got called out. The main point of me reviving is to show the actual facts, and the progress

 

[_MACE_]

16.7 stock? Oh no. That is so slow. Jeez, what does a stock honda civic run in comparison? Ahh man I hope I dont get spanked by a minivan in this thing. Lulz.

 

[420aPJ]

My Nt feels like it has so much potential.

 

[mjfedak]

Mark bullet 13.231
new england dsm member

 

[AK Maniak]

My Nt feels like it has so much potential.

Thats how i felt when i first got my RS, but then I pulled my head out of my ass before i spent a lot of money and just bought a GSX

 

[420aPJ]

Thats how i felt when i first got my RS, but then I pulled my head out of my ass before i spent a lot of money and just bought a GSX

I know I found a cheap Tsi AWD... I might get it. Sorry to my ESi

 

[Dhan]

Glad to see this thread revived.

It doesn't matter that the 420A N/T guys aren't making sub-14 second runs. Arguing that they're slow and not worth the time and money is missing the point completely.

Given the platform, what the N/T guy's have accomplished in the last few years is commendable and very impressive.

Keep up the good work!

 

[psycho]

Mark bullet 13.231
new england dsm member

I believe he's down to 13.1 now.

 

[bullettdsm]

In answer to the OP's original question;

"I do"

Mark bullet 13.231
new england dsm member

I believe he's down to 13.1 now.

And Jonathan's correct. The current record is 13.194. I don't know if I've even changed it anywhere on my sigs etc (too lazy? Or too disappointed because I think I should be in the 12's by now). Props to psycho for remembering

And Dan is absolutely correct;

Arguing that they're slow and not worth the time and money is missing the point completely.

of which I've tried to clarify/state in the past, so I won't do it again. I think Mallory said it best when he was asked why he wanted to climb Mount Everest, "Because its there." Its about the challenge.

Interesting notes as i thumbed through this thread;

"Factory freaks" are well known to exist, .

I didn't know awddynamite was around back then. He's started before my time. Even Zero was there before my time, .

I did enjoy this;

i think he was being sarcastic. hence the...i personally do not think our n/t's have 12 sec. potential with out being way over board, and raising the compression. even with those two mods and a bunch of other mods, i still doubt the 420 will go into the 12's.

Helps keep me motivated

I'm gonna disagree a little here with you Steve. I'm thinking by many of these posts, that these guys were on the right track;

I really don't see any n/a 420A getting in to the 12's without some serious sponsorship,

While yes I'm not sponsored (and will probably never be. Nobody tells me what to do, ), I do kinda sponsor myself a bit by breaking down cars to support my "habit". My sponsorship continues, by me doing all my own work (shy of the machine work which is done at a cut rate by my buddy at Northeast - but now that I think of it, I do get a sort of sponsorship by guys like Mike at Northeast and All Motor Mike for lower prices on product that we develop. So I guess that's sort of a sponsorship).

.......tons of motor work, and a stripped out chassis.......

That would describe my car

I really don't see the average joe getting any lower than 14 flat without moderate to heavy mods as well.

Of course define "moderate", but I would agree here. I was running 14.3 on the AFX and safc with 10.9 comp and multiple bolt-on mods with cams (I believe they were C 2's) and headwork. The best time I had as a "daily" (defined as a car I could comfortably get in and drive 500 miles, on a whim, with pump gas and heat and radio etc., without worrying about the car's needs at all) was 13.9 and that was with MSnS. After that she was pure race car.

That's my opinion based on what I've seen at the track and of the stories I KNOW to be true. Most everything else is just bench racing and until we see some time slips there's really no need to keep asking about times. Doug

Right on

The only way my all motor monster is going to break into the high 13s is with a military surplus solid fuel booster rocket in the hatch or if Bill Hahn is pushing my car down the track with his.

Of course for driggs, this could be true , but I'm sure this was said with tongue firmly set in cheek.

I would say a n/t with adjustable cam gears, crane 18 cams, standalone ecu, race ported head, extrude honed intake manifold with 60mm throttle body, LSD, slicks, a short ram intake set up to a custom hood with true ram air inlet, full 2.75" exhaust with high flow cat, and a stroked Dodge stratus 2.6L block, bored .40 over with 12:1 compression running on 116 race gas would be the best way to break into the 13's NA.

Now here he was on the right track, but then he went overboard. Once he got into the 2.6 motor, he jumped out of the rules of the 2.0 Eclipse NT (IMO). In addition, with the 2.6 and comp, I would suspect that I would take that set-up a LOT lower than just into the 13's. Certainly 12's if not lower (no bench racing intended).

And isn't this close to what you have right now?;

adjustable cam gears - check
crane 18 cams - check
standalone ecu - AFX unit & SAFC2 (not quite, but still)
race ported head - check
extrude honed intake manifold - planned
60mm throttle body - considering
LSD - check
slicks - considering
short ram intake - considering

I'm just hoping for mid 14s myself. We'll see...

Brian wasn't that far off with his assessment.

Of course, here he was a bit out of touch;

I'm putting over $5 grand into the same engine in a 97 and will be aiming for 14.9s and 200hp.

As you know, no need for 200 ponies to get to 14.9

But fun/interesting reading, all in all

MB

 

[carmiencke]

It seems like everyone builds only the 420a motors. What about first gen 4g63's? Anyone have any decent info on them.

 

[Fotowntalon]

It seems like everyone builds only the 420a motors. What about first gen 4g63's? Anyone have any decent info on them.

seriously? the 420a is one of the most neglected platforms in tuner car history. Hell I'd even say the neon has more supporters than us....

Of course define "moderate", but I would agree here. I was running 14.3 on the AFX and safc with 10.9 comp and multiple bolt-on mods with cams (I believe they were C 2's) and headwork. The best time I had as a "daily" (defined as a car I could comfortably get in and drive 500 miles, on a whim, with pump gas and heat and radio etc., without worrying about the car's needs at all) was 13.9 and that was with MSnS. After that she was pure race car.

My goal, well the 13.9 DD part i should say.

As you know, no need for 200 ponies to get to 14.9

For all the newbies, its been proven you only need 148 whp to hit 14.9, and honestly i'd even go down to 140-145 if you get a good enough launch

as for this

adjustable cam gears - check
crane 18 cams - check
standalone ecu - AFX unit & SAFC2 (not quite, but still)
race ported head - check
extrude honed intake manifold - planned
60mm throttle body - considering
LSD - check
slicks - considering
short ram intake - considering
custom hood with true ram air inlet - considering
full 2.75" exhaust with high flow cat - 2.5" no cat
stratus 2.6L block, bored .40 over with 12:1 compression running on 116 race gas - stock displacement 420A running 93 octane at 10.5:1
would be the best way to break into the 13's NA.
I'm just hoping for mid 14s myself. We'll see...

Yeah this is close to what i am running (not sure the conversion of crane 18's to crower's is) But I'm working on the lsd/slicks/AMM IM and 12.1 comp, hoping to get me to the 13's. Also I dont think my head is considered 'race ported'

Regardless a lot of there posts were on the right track, but others we have eclipsed (no pun intended) I didnt mean to demean anyone, just showing how much potential these cars have and hoping to inspire more... Just outa curiosity whats the fastest 4g63 NA, oh know i'm going to get this thread locked.

Anyways can't wait till we can get a decent amount into the 14s, and even a few into the 13's so we can start getting some respect