Which is a better mod E85 or a FMIC?

[sbeck]

Current engine mods that I can think of are evo injectors,dsmlink, turbo back exhaust, 255lph pump, 1g bov, air filter, boost gauge, wideband.

I will be installing a 16g and was debating going with some e85 injectors and some piping for the stock sidemount or going with a fmic and making my own piping. Both will cost about the same to do so which would be better first? Has anyone gone e85 with the stock sidemount to see how much it can handle before causing knock? Its only a small 16g so I have heard it maxes out around 23 psi before boost tapers off so that would probably be my limit.

 

[turbodude]

If it was me i would do the FMIC, seeing how if you ever plan to shoot for high HP and boost it is something you are gonna have to or at least should do anyway. why not knock it out now to dot your I's and cross your T's

 

[1990AWD]

Both!

Seriously though, fmic first.

 

[sbeck]

With a good front mount can I get 23 psi on 91 octane without having to pull timing?

 

[gofer]

Every car is different but I'd say more than likely no.

Since you're in the process of swapping to the 16g turbo you'll need to change your LICP around anyway, no better time than now to move to a FMIC setup too.

To answer your question about knock running E85 on the stock side mount, when you run E85 your car won't knock which is why tuning it should be done on a dyno. When tuning a car on 91 or 93oct you kick up the boost to your desired boost level and then tune timing by watching for knock, then back it off a degree. Tuning E85, since it doesn't knock, you turn up the boost to your desired level and then advance timing until the car quits making power and the only way to be certain timing advance is in the sweet spot is on a dyno.

 

[sbeck]

From your explanation it seems like e85 is a better mod. Obviously both is the best but if I were to choose one I think I am going to give e85 a shot first. I can make a lower intercooler pipe and will just buy a rre upper and see how far I can take it. I want to go with an ETS fmic eventually if I need it rather than making my own kit with a ebay core right now I think. This way I can safely run high boost with the 16g and save for the ETS kit. If I still want more power I can pay for a professional tune but I have had no problem tuning dsmlink myself so far.

 

[skatershawn]

Well first he never said how he was going to upgrade to e85. IMO, because this is what I have planned, I would do e85 on the side mount. Not sure how much difference there is between the 1g smic and the 2g smic but I plan to run it on my smic.

And 2nd. What are your overall goals for the car? That can make a huge difference in your decision!

 

[Sam@RRE]

With how much a sidemount flows, you probabaly wont make much power at 23psi. Its just choking the flow. You'll make more tq at the boost level with e85 timing levels and fuel ratios, but top end flow (HP) will suffer. With a FMIC you can run that boost level, but probably better at 19~20psi to get 10~12* of peak timing. Roughly 4* less than what you can get away with on e85. The small 16g wont make power at higher boost levels 20~23 is about where its happy so there wont be much gains from boost.

All in all:
The restriction from the sidemount will probabaly cost you 20~30 whp.
The lack of octane in 91 will cost you about 4~5* of timing, roughly 25~35 whp on a 16G at those boost levels.
And looking at your profile, the lack of cams will probabaly restrict you to 260~270whp either way you go.

I've tuned a 50trim at 28psi on pump and meth, on stock cams he left here with 280whp.

Fast forward 2 months and the car came back with cams and made 320whp on 91 pump alone at 20psi and 415whp on 91/meth at 28psi.

In your case, I would go FMIC, Cams, e85 in that order. Or save up, and drop coin like a BOSS and go all three at once and choke a snitch like you're were Wayne Bradey.

 

[sbeck]

In your case, I would go FMIC, Cams, e85 in that order. Or save up, and drop coin like a BOSS and go all three at once and choke a snitch like you're were Wayne Bradey.[/QUOTE]

I just went BOSS with some JIC FLT-A2s, brakes, evo wheels and tires but my t25 sounds like a supercharger so its time finally get it all done.

 

[UofACATS]

Just a data point:

On E85 alone (no I/C) I ran 19psi and 18 degrees timing at 12:1 AFRs. You may or may not be able to do the same with the stock sidemount in the way, but I'd think you'd at least be able to duplicate it.

I wouldn't advise buying SMIC piping just to pull it for FMIC piping.

 

[richard33]

Every car is different but I'd say more than likely no.

Since you're in the process of swapping to the 16g turbo you'll need to change your LICP around anyway, no better time than now to move to a FMIC setup too.

To answer your question about knock running E85 on the stock side mount, when you run E85 your car won't knock which is why tuning it should be done on a dyno. When tuning a car on 91 or 93oct you kick up the boost to your desired boost level and then tune timing by watching for knock, then back it off a degree. Tuning E85, since it doesn't knock, you turn up the boost to your desired level and then advance timing until the car quits making power and the only way to be certain timing advance is in the sweet spot is on a dyno.

A little bit of mis information there. You can definitely knock on e85. Not trying to be a dick at all, but if you're not 100% on something like this you shouldn't post it at all. This statement could cause a lot of problems. Again, not attacking you at all just don't want people to see this and think e85=no knock.

 

[turboglenn]

I ran a test a long time ago with E85 and no FMIC (it's still posted in the nitrous/alcohol/water injection area) I was using meth/water injection on top of it though, and to be honest i think there's too many benefits to having a FMIC on the street to bypass it altogether and leaving it off the car unless you're running pure methanol as a fuel and drag racing only. Although i found some benefits to running wihtout one, it's benefits far outweighed it's draw backs during dfaily driving as well as spirited blasts of theheavy pedal quite often

And i have to agree with the above, you can most definitely knock on e85 and to add to it you shouldn't really be tuning by knock, although it's become a common misconception because knock sensor is so widely feared in the DSM community, i ran for about 9 years without a knock sensor all together tuning based on all the old tried and trued methods used for generations who came before us. and untill the AEM, link (not DSMlink) and some other stand alone manuafacturers started putting an input for a sensor in their ECU's the high performance fuel injected world using aftermarket ECU's (think outside the DSM box) didn't have knock sensors at all, neither has the entire carbeurated based high performance world. Tuning is a science of AFR's, measuring engine output via dyno, EGT's, and many other variables. (and i don't mean that as an attack either, just clarifying that outside of the DSMworld knock sensors aren't nearly as feared or utilized in the tuning aspect of building a fast car)

 

[compression]

It also has to do with availability, i myself have never seen a pump with E-85, i'm not sure if that is a florida thing, however i don't think i would ever switch to it. people make substantial amounts of whp with race fuel which is more available here then E-85.

And im not sure why everybody is avoiding the obvious. FMIC's just look aggressive and badass .

on a side note, i ran 12.80 with 650's ,stock rewired pump, maft (for the sensor location and flow) , and safc2. Stock sidemount. EDIT: scratch that , i also had an evo 3 16g, nonetheless stock smic.

 

[nightmares GS-T]

Really guys? Has no one taken into consideration that he's running evo injectors. Assuming they are 560cc injectors and a bfp of 43 psi when running pure e85 that equals 370 cc injectors. Isn't that entirely too low? Someone chime in if im mistaken but that's the numbers I got according to the formula on ecm tunings website.

 

[95talongirl]

The beauty of E85 is the fact that it's such a high octane. Which means you can get more "results" without the fear of knock early on. Like mentioned above, sure you could knock using e85; but it gives you a lot more room to play before that happens due to the octane of ~110 (I believe it is). (Poor man's race gas!)

You could switch over now, if you want... but to truly get the most out of it, you'll want to upgrade the FMIC, get some cams, ect. Since you will want to flow more air. Also, like mentioned above, you'll be limited but what the engine can flow. And yes, you'll want bigger injectors. E85 is not as efficient, and thus you use 33.3% more fuel than the dinosaur stuff.

Some people have asked me why I haven't gone with e85... but over here (southeast MI).. it's not readily available.
That's another thing you may want to take into consideration.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Really guys? Has no one taken into consideration that he's running evo injectors. Assuming they are 560cc injectors and a bfp of 43 psi when running pure e85 that equals 370 cc injectors. Isn't that entirely too low? Someone chime in if im mistaken but that's the numbers I got according to the formula on ecm tunings website.

He said in his opening post that if he went the E-85 route he would be getting new injectors, I'm sure he meant much larger injectors. I don't understand your point.

I will be installing a 16g and was debating going with some e85 injectors and some piping for the stock sidemount or going with a fmic and making my own piping. Both will cost about the same to do so which would be better first?

 

[Junfan]

FMIC then the other stuff. You will need to do it at some point anyhow so just do that now and come back to the other stuff. If you wanna be really baller and stay with a SMIC try to find a supra or older Buschur sidemount.

 

[TSimage]

The cooling properties of the E85 will more then make up for an FMIC. The correct answer is E85. For those that chose the FMIC. You've failed this course.

 

[Junfan]

I don't agree considering that he would max side mount with heat soak around 18 psi so why bother with E85. Just my opinion but whatever.

 

[Bud92gsx]

I'm saying go for both at the same Time, like a boss..That way your take your car to the dyno and get the most bang for your buck..

IF you want to do it in stages I say e85 first..But the stock sidemount will be your restriction at higher boost levels..

Then I would still look into getting cams and heading back to the dyno..

And if you plan on maxing out the small 16g with all these mods..The small 16g will then be your problem..

 

[UofACATS]

Stock SMIC. E85. 30psi of boost.


Here's the quote:

Running a stock smic at 30 psi on a 16g i targeted about 10.8-11.2. With a fmic i target 12:1. The richer mixture on the stock smic(which pretty much is a hotpipe at 30 psi), allowed me to run plenty of timing, without knock. I did have to gap my plugs down to .020" to light off the super rich mixture at high boost. I'd be leery of running leaner than 11.5:1 with 200-300* iat's, as the rich mixture cools the charge down a lot more. This is all on e85, of course.

 

[Bud92gsx]

It worked for one guy..But for some reason running 30 psi on a stock sidemount doesn't feel right to me..IT feels like the sidemount should heatsoak, and cause no more gains in power..You know what I mean?

 

[Junfan]

Yea well Kevin Kwiatkowski can do 1.2 60 foot launches in a FWD car too does that mean it is the possible for everyone? Just saying that because one person has success doing things does not mean we will all experience the same results. I understand that from a technical perspective that e85 may be better but damn common sense tells me fix the bottleneck first then move forward.

 

[nightmares GS-T]

He said in his opening post that if he went the E-85 route he would be getting new injectors, I'm sure he meant much larger injectors. I don't understand your point.

Completely missed that part. Reading on the phone while working does that from time to time . To the op, do them both if possible. Hot air is bad air and the fuel is only going to cool the charge down so much. Even with no knock the cooler the intake charge is the more power you will be able to make.

 

[gofer]

A little bit of mis information there. You can definitely knock on e85. Not trying to be a dick at all, but if you're not 100% on something like this you shouldn't post it at all. This statement could cause a lot of problems. Again, not attacking you at all just don't want people to see this and think e85=no knock.

And i have to agree with the above, you can most definitely knock on e85 and to add to it you shouldn't really be tuning by knock, although it's become a common misconception because knock sensor is so widely feared in the DSM community.

I want to clear the air here about E85 and knock because what I said isn't misinformation, you won't show signs of detonation in a log and melt engine components using gasoline tuning methods that most do.

Tuning a car using the knock sensor (since most of us aren't old like Glenn ) is common practice and the safe way of doing things without completely destroying your motor. Detonation (knock) occurs from increased CC pressure and temperature, both of which E85 reduces because of its higher octane and lower ignition temperatures that create cooler cylinder temps. Engines that detonate sipping on corn juice don't show one degree of REAL knock in the log, they simply melt. This is often caused by pre-ignition, which is something completely different than knock, or from in increase in EGT's created by the longer burn time of E85 and not enough timing advance.

Simply put, knock is created by uncontrolled fuel ignition in the cylinder because of high pressure or heat, both of which don't happen because of E85's lower burn temp. Truthfully, I believe that running E85 using the stock SMIC and a 16g @ 20psi is possible because whatever heat the SMIC can't take out of the intake air the E85 will deal with during the combustion process.

I'm in no way saying that your engine can't fail running E85, you just won't see the signs of knock/detonation when it does.