Which Cams: Kelford Or BC ?

[bry2gdsm]

Hey Guys I plan to upgrade cams in the near future so i was wondering what is the best of these 2 cams? the brian crower's 272 or the kelford's 272? i know i have to degree them but i am putting fidanza cam gears so it won't be a problem but at the same time im not into degreeing that much so. im more convinced on getting the kelfords but i haven't seen much cars with them on so that's why im asking you guys... if you could provide me threads of the results of kelford cams would be deeply appreciated. also is better to use the ralliart mlhg than the cometic right?

Thanks In Advance!
Brian

 

[Boostdclips99]

Also:
The FULL facts and long log on the event. The hks triggered the knock sensor on the dyno, even when the engine was 150 degrees. I had the same tune on the car the night before up to 210 coolant temps and the timing map is very low already, so I figured the sensor was picking something up from the dyno. So, we turned the knock sensor off and made a couple pulls to get the graphs. Last pull made @ 9k smacked valves and had to r2 to the bent valves before we could go on.

Next up with new valves and compression of 160-170 again, BC pulls are made. Boost from the start was 3 psi lower, so we add it back in and zero knock was read from the knock sensor.

Next up was the FP3x. The FP's first pull logged lot of knock, 3-4 degree being pulled every time. I didn't like it because it knock everytime same RPM area's, so we pulled more and more timing still getting knock and only making 370-380. So, we took it off the dyno and made a couple street pulls to see if it was dyno related. Street logs still showed knock, near same area's, but a little less. Back on the dyno we went and still, no power so i said the hell with it. A/F are fine, timing is rock bottom, turn the sensor off and make a couple pulls with some timing to break the 400HP area. Made a few pulls and got into BC HP area with the knock sensor off and a couple degree's lower timing. However, last pull we got a real bad oil leak timing belt side. So, we figure cam gear seals might be leaking since we havent changed them.

Next in goes the S2's. Timing map from the HKS and BC is loaded and knock sensor back on. Replaced cam seal, first pull made 462 at 24.5 area boost, zero knock, but
oil shot all over again. So we pull the timing belt off again and replace oil pump seal. Next run we turn the boost up to make it even with other cams 25-26. Made 466, again with oil shooting all over. So, we pull it apart again and check crank seal. Looks to be ok, so clean everything off to run it with the timing cover off to try and find leak. Start car, no leaks, so we figure it boost related. Do a compression check, and found the answer. 120-130-140-130.

Looking back on what happen, I think all the knock from trying to tune the FP's and the point "I" made the mistake in thinking it cant be real knock, it was and damaged piston rings. The first sign of oil shoot all over was on the last FP pull with the senor off and the last full dyno pulls were ugly. Again, this was my mistake as a tuner not just call it quites when I should have.

So, that leaves me to this point now. Cams will be shipped back out today, and I'm here at GSC pulling the engine to re-ring and hone the block. I got a few more weeks before I go to the desert and I'd love to get to the track before I got off for half a year.

I will post the logs soon so every one can run thru are testing. Boost and A/F was logged. I'll even include the logs of the FP's on the street.

The BC280 makes a lot better power then HKS 272's, but idle like crap.
FP3xs idle great, but very tough for us to tune. Maybe others will have better results.
GSC S2 idles good and made the most power on a **** compression engine. There is no REAL way to know how much more power it could have made over the others, but I will say it makes more power then these other cams, no question about it.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I did a write up on my experience with the kelford272s coming from bc272s.
They shouldnt really be compared too much because they are totally different cams.
On a evo316g sized turbo and smaller which is already taxed on airflow, the kelfords dont make that much a difference over the bc272s other than shifting the powerband a little. On a bigger turbo that flows more air it is a different story.

 

[mindset]

Cams seem like a performance mod that yeilds x amount of power dependent on your supporting mods/turbo.

 

[JayRolla]

Im going to be installing Delta 272's on stock valve train very soon. For the price they cant be beat.

 

[JAXWHITE1G]

Comparing cams is about like comparing different cars each will have an advantage for some and a disadvantage for others.You have to look at the cams as a single part of the whole picture and should be decided on when you have the complete engine planned. What is great for one may not be great for another. Max HP is all that some people look at but drive-ability should be important if the car is to be driven on the road. The characteristics of each cam can be changed when the timing of each cam is changed relative to the other. "ALL" cams should be degreed regardless of manufacture. The manufactures specifications is a good starting point but by no means is it always going to be the same for every engine. Cylinder head porting, Compression ratio,Intake and Exhaust manifolds,Exhaust system, Turbo, all play a part and can make one set of cams better or worse. I wouldn't install a set of cams without a way of tuning for them such as DSM Link or a stand alone. Cams change the entire dynamics of an engine and should not be taken lightly.
Tuning a car with one set of cams and just changing the cams with out retuning for the new cams will invalidate the test. There are to many variables to make accurate claims and to compare different cams. By all means follow the manufactures recommendations and find out what they were designed to do.

Mike

 

[keltalon]

I have run both HKS 272's and now I am on the Kelford 280's. I loved both sets of cams. The HKS 272 have a great well rounded power band, and are very consistent. They are going to be great for a car with a 16g to a 35r turbo. The same will go for the Kelford 272's.

Once I switched to the Kelford 280's they idle very well, and I only lost a little spool up compared to the HKS 272's. The 280's continue to make more power all the way to redline, and will hold a lot more torque to redline than the HKS cams for me.

All in all pick a cam for your driving and power requirements.

264 = less than 400hp - 14b-e316g
272 = less than 500hp - e316g-35r
280 = more than 500hp - 35r-huge

Just my thoughts.

well here is my last dyno @ 31psi bw s259 hks 264in and 264ex cams with stock intake manifold. I spoke with bc yesterday and am trying to get them to send me a set of their cams and I will be glad to provide a comparison against the 264 that i currently am running. I am waiting to see if they take up my offer so at least we can put some of this to rest

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=357142

 

[justin90gsx]

eclipse is faster than talon. and talon is faster than a laser.... jk
i got bc 272's in my car and i love them but when i get a large turbo on there im getting kelfords

 

[keltalon]

Well BC accepted my offer and will be sending me a set of 272 cams to see how they will work with my setup. They are very confident that their 272 will be a hugh improvement over the hks 264! Make no mistake about it I have been very please with the hks 264s they have put me over the 500whp mark and I really had no intention of upgrading them. After reading this thread I am very curious about what they will do so I will be testing them and posted the results to at least lay to rest some of the concerns that most here may have about whether they are worth it or not. Stay tuned.

 

[Black_Bullet]

eclipse is faster than talon. and talon is faster than a laser.... jk
i got bc 272's in my car and i love them but when i get a large turbo on there im getting kelfords

Screw that , Lasers the fastest , its the lightest
And in response to Theboz, just so I dont make this a useless post, I dont think a cam upgrade decision should be broadly based on a HP number but more so a decision based on power band and supporting mods... For example you said 280s for 500+ hp, which may not call for cams that big as it could actually cause a unnecessarily weak torque curve as the power band of the 280s are up in the rpms. You can still run 264's and make 500whp if the rest of the setup is right, no need for cams that are too big for the setup. Personally I think really good 272 cam setups are well suited for the majority of dsms on this site from mild to wild...

 

[miniturbo23]

just a quick Q' for me whats the best combo for the HKS camshafts on the valve springs and retainers?? i see the make valve springs but not retainers, planing on using a 35R with HKS 280s.. thanks in advance.. and no BC!