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2G Weird sound and clutch issues

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Is this with a dogbox car, or a stock transmission car? I thought your email you sent said you had a dogbox, which uses a 1"x23 spline AT03 clutch alignment tool (same as Evo). Which exact quarter master clutch are you using? 6 leg? 8 leg? silver 2 piece flywheel or black 1 piece flywheel? The gear drive disk pack uses an AT20 7/8"x20-spline tool for the stock size input shaft, and a 1"x23 spline AT03 clutch alignment tool for PPG/PAR dogbox transmissions that have a larger input shaft size / spline count. Also, with certain flywheels, the clutch alignment hole is larger and the alignment tool needs to be taped to fit the hole size of the flywheel. It just depends on which exact clutch and flywheel assembly you are using.

As for the tcase, remove the side cover and remove the input sleeve and drive gear and fully inspect the bearings. The inner tapered roller bearing is notorious for premature failure vs. the rest of the bearings.

As for turning torque, with used stuff set up without much preload it should be easy to turn by hand disassembled or assembled. With some of my race ones that have a bit higher preload on the drive gear and the pinion preload it can be firmer to turn and require an output shaft installed into the tcase or a slip yoke on the tail shaft to rotate.

Dogbox transmission car; or so that's what I was told. But I seemed to recall that I counted the splines on the input shaft from transmission to the clutch, and it came back as 20. Started to confuse myself when I saw that on your site clutch only comes in 20 or 23 spline, 23 spline being PPG gearset only.

This clutch is on the car: https://www.quartermasterusa.com/product/v-drive-clutch-7-25

The clutch is very old, but low mileage (according to PO). Noticing the options for the input shaft on the QM site aren't matching what you're saying. 1 1/8 x 10 spline or 1 5/32 x 26 spline, so that would lead me to believe they don't even make this clutch anymore for the car? But I may be speaking incorrectly.

I'm not sure what flywheel is on the car at the moment. Will have to check when home
 
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@We're on Boost, when it says the rotating torque, how exactly would someone apply 1.7-2.5 lbs to something? And seems I'll need a micrometer to measure the gear set backlash.

And, can you link me to the FSM?

Here is a link to the FSM for the 2g transaxle:

That link takes you to a page where Tim Zimmer shows the link to the pdf file in his google drive. When you get that up on your screen you hit the download button and save it to your computer as a pdf file. With Acrobat Reader DC you can use the "Edit" "Find" function to search for terms like "transfer" or "backlash" and that will zip you right through to the stuff you want.

The above document I just fished out of the whole library of documents that various people have put links to in DSMtuners. When I look at that library it is 2 pages on my PC. This FSM I found on the 2nd page. The library is here:
https://www.dsmtuners.com/forum/articles-manuals-documents.262/

I think Tim answered your question about the rotating torque about like I thought. The factory spec of around 1 or 2 foot pounds is hardly anything. But the FSM does show pics and diagrams of how to do this if you wanted to actually measure the torque.
Like XC92 said, if you wanted to actually measure such a small torque, you'd need a little torque wrench calibrated in inch pounds.
For stuff like this I don't think you would want a "click" type wrench, because when a click wrench clicks, it thinks it's done. You would want a simple beam type wrench that acts more like a scale that keeps reading. The one I bought is "currently out of stock" at Home Depot but I'm posting a link to it anyway so you can see it. I bought this for helping with setting the timing belt tension to spec, which is another place I wouldn't want a click wrench.

You could get it with a click type wrench though, if that's what you had on hand.
 
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BTW that clutch that you have, as you noticed, each disc has it's own splined hub. The newer ones that are called "gear drive" have a different setup there, where each disc is splined at about a 2.5 inch diameter to a single hub which then has it's own splines at whatever shaft size you have. I tried to show that in the 3rd picture I put into post #5 in my Build thread. You would have to + it up to full size to really see it.
The "gear drive" single hub setup is supposedly much easier on the splines of your transmission input shaft, and I would think you'd have much less trouble with the alignment tool too.
I also counted 20 splines on your picture of the pressure plate in post #1.
 
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Could you please take a picture of the input shaft on the transmission? You are certain it is a dogbox? Are you sure it isn't a face plated OEM gearset? Have you taken the trans apart to inspect?

If it is an old version 6 leg rally v-drive twin disk, i am suspecting you may have the old silver flywheel with press-on ring gear (two piece version) that had a much larger alignment hole in the flywheel that requires you to tape up an alignment tool to get it to fit correctly. It is common for the standard hub disks to have misalignment issues during assembly if your alignment tool isn't perfectly taped up. I use electrical tape and measure the hole diameter in the flywheel then carefully wrap the tool to 0.004" undersized so it smoothly installs but takes up all the hole size. This will help with install. Another thing is that you have the transmission hanging by an engine hoist and chain as it makes it significantly easier to install. Otherwise I typically use a floor jack and a piece of carpeted 3/4" MDF sheet (mine is like 16"x16"). You will likely need to gently rotate the trans a bit with the old style hubs to get it on smoothly. Be sure to inspect your input shaft splines for uneven wear as that will make the installation process tiresome as well.

The street flywheels I sell are black and have a machined ring gear, making it 1 piece. The alignment tool hole size matches properly with mine.

As well, I have sold gear drive 6 leg clutches since like 2009 as I am the one responsible for the gear drive disk pack being made in the first place, as my car was the proto for it. You can still buy the old style disk pack with individual hubs but they are completely inferior to the newer gear drive version.
 
I have not taken the trans apart myself, actually worries me to do that in fear I’ll f*** it up. Lmao.
Previous owner and his trans dude said it’s a liberty faceplated dogbox

I’ve attached a pic of the input shaft, and the clutch.

didn’t have time to work on anything this evening, werk stuff.

thinking it may be smart to upgrade to the new 8 leg, gear driven version. Just didn’t plan on dropping 5k on this round of mods 😂

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Liberty face plated uses the OEM gearset and machines the gears down, then weld dog rings onto the OEM gears. It uses a 7/8x20-spline AT20 clutch alignment tool.

That is the old version Quarter Master race 6 leg flywheel that has the ring gear heated up and pressed on. Also, I can see you have the standard hub disks, and your clutch cover spring retainer screws were contacting your clutch fork. You will want to grind down the cover spring screws flush with the locknuts, and then do a bit of extra clearance work on the clutch fork so you do not contact the cover when the clutch wears out. Just remove the SAE bolts (they are torqued to 22-24 ft/lb for reference) holding the clutch cover onto the flywheel and thoroughly inspect (i.e. take pictures and send them to me with exact measurements of the disk thicknesses (0.250" is new, 0.235" is recommended replacement, 0.225" is wiped out). Check the floater plate and pressure plate for hot spotting and if you are able to measure warpage, 0.004" warpage is the max recommended value for floater and pressure plate (otherwise again, just take detailed photos and I am able to help). Be sure to take good close up pictures of the splines on each clutch disk and visually inspect for elongation of the splines or partial engagement of the rear clutch disk (notorious problem with the very old ones). You will need to measure the alignment hole on the flywheel (I do have one at the shop that I can measure if you are unable to) and then tape your clutch alignment tool like I had discussed in the earlier post.

The clutch cover looks like an old standard 2800# spring which with the race friction disks can do around 800TQ. The newer gear drive stuff has race friction (same friction material as yours) and street friction (ceramic material, better for street usage and smoother launches but it does have a lower torque capacity around 600-650tq with the 2800# spring). I can also do custom clutch covers with different spring rates, and all of mine use countersunk fasteners instead of the machine screws and nuts sticking out like yours does.

For old reading fun, you can find my original thread on the gear drive disk pack here - https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/q...sneek-peek-prototype-design-twin-disk.321967/

Also, I am still using the same old clutch cover style and flywheel as you are using, just with the gear drive race friction disks and a 2800# spring (at its limits) on the car. Here is even the old dyno stuff with the gear drive disks on my car - https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/dynoed-the-74mm-part-2-new-best-1000awhp-716tq-48psi.468388/

The gear drive disk pack does drop right into that clutch, but it also depends on the condition of your clutch cover legs (the floater plate and pressure plate legs wear into the cover legs from high rpm decel (to prevent this wear, reduce high rpm decel by shifting to neutral, upshifting, or using lower rpms for normal street usage), along with the surface condition of your floater plate and pressure plate. I am an expert in these clutches and have around 15 years of using them, building them and selling them.

Please send photos and then I can give you a bit more information as to what needs replacement.
 
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I picked up the comp forged clutch fork from you, do I still need to grind down those bolts?

From my memory, I seem to think my clutch alignment tool is too large and won’t slide into this clutch.

these pics are of an old twin disc I pulled from another car, I’m assuming it’s beat to shit and has some of the items you mentioned that I need to look for when inspecting this quartermaster.

may just bite the bullet here and upgrade, based on your recommendations once I pull this one off.

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It would be beneficial to grind down the cover screws on the outside of the QM cover to clear the fork, just worth it if you are there. You won't need to do any additional grindwork to the clutch fork at all then.

As for the Comp parts, the flywheel is directly interchangeable and is 4 pounds heavier than the QM race flywheel you currently have installed. It is a nice piece, you will just have to see how flat the friction surface is if you want to reuse it. The wear on all the Comp stuff looks like normal street usage, nothing super out of the ordinary. You would want to measure the thicknesses of the disk friction pads to confirm what they are at.

The Comp clutch cover, floater plate and pressure plate are nearly the same dimensionally as the QM 6 leg stuff (you may need to do a little clearance work so everything fits smoothly). Also note that the Comp flywheel uses M8x1.25 fasteners so you will need to use the ones with the Comp clutch cover shown, if you intend on switching that flywheel over to the Quarter Master currently being used.
 
Insane amounts of knowledge. Really awesome.

What alignment tool would I need for the Comp clutch? Assuming 7/8 x 20.

when comparing the two, I preferred driving the Comp, and looks like it wouldn’t hit the clutch fork at all. Debating on switching that over to the car, flywheel and all.

I’ll sleep on it a couple nights.
 
The cover screws can easily be ground down with an abrasive wheel on a die grinder in 30 seconds.

The rest of the clutch is literally identical to the QM other than the flywheel which is heavier and easier to drive.

Measure the parts like I said so we know its condition and remaining life, then we can put together a plan of which one to use.
 
Well, this clutch is shot. I measured each disc and came back at .19 and .20 "qm 1" and "qm 2" pics. Meanwhile, the comp clutch measured in at .2405 on each disc. So I think it would be easiest to switch to that. But I'll wait for Tim's expertise; did have a few questions.

1. The flywheel on the car; do I need to do anything with it? Or can I bolt this clutch on and go. I've included a pic of it "flywheel on car"
2. I'll need to order the alignment tool for this comp clutch, assuming I can get that through Tim; will go ahead and order a new slave as well while I'm at it.
3. Assuming I don't have to modify anything with the Comp clutch cover since I'll be installing the Comp forged clutch fork that's designed for this anyways.
4. On the pic "comp clutch layout". On the disc closest to us, it has the words "trans side of engine disc" I assume this disc goes on FIRST, and I should be able to read this lettering when installed, until I install the next ring. I have it laid out how I think it would be layered on; meaning I would pick the ring up that is above the lowest disc, and place it on the first disc, and so on.
5. I took a video of my t-case but I can't upload it for some reason? But I e-mailed tim the video of the t-case he asked.
6. If this car makes the power I want, I'm assuming this comp clutch won't last long. I'm not against upgrading now, but will wait for further input.

However, could all of these issues have been from a drastically low clutch disc thickness? .19-.20 seems incredibly low based on previous posts. But that wouldn't explain that insanely horrible sound from my first post; doesn't seem likely that worn out clutch would cause that.

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For shits and giggles check the QM disks one more time by zero'ing out the calipers before measurement, just to confirm 100% that they are that thin, that is extremely thin and would be causing heavy slippage of they were that thin. This WOULD NOT give you the crazy noises that sounded like broken parts from the videos. UNLESS THE CLUTCH FORK WAS CONTACTING DURING CLUTCH ENGAGED, AND QUIET WHEN CLUTCH DISENGAGED.
BUT.....read below about flywheel details #1 note!!!

If we 100% confirm that the QM disks are way out of spec, then definitely run the Competition Clutch entire assembly (clutch cover, pressure plate, front disk, floater plate, rear disk, flywheel) WITH 22.5mm long flywheel bolts (measured from under head of bolt to bottom of threads -- the ones pictured are ARP fasteners, confirm their length. The OEM bolts are 22.5mm long and are 2795A956 as the part number. I have these in stock.)

With using that specific QM race flywheel there are a couple intricate details that need to have attention paid to.
1) The QM race flywheel shown is thinner in flange thickness than the OEM flywheel or the Competition Clutch twin disk flywheel, and IT REQUIRES SHORTER FASTENERS!!! The 22.5mm flywheel bolts CAN BOTTOM OUT in the crank and the flywheel would be loose with the bolts torqued down, causing serious damage to the crank flange and the flywheel flange if the bolts bottom out. THIS WOULD CAUSE SOME CRAZY NOISE AS WELL AS DISENGAGEMENT ISSUES
2) ALWAYS MEASURE THE CRANK THREAD DEPTH + THE THICKNESS OF FLYWHEEL FLANGE and confirm your bolts are SHORTER THAN THE COMBINED THICKNESS!!! Some people used to use a flexplate spacer plate with OEM bolts. The 6 bolt should be using 19.5mm bolts with the Quarter Master RACE flywheel. The 7 bolt should be using 17.0mm flywheel bolts with the Quarter Master RACE flywheel.
3) With the 8 leg clutch assemblies, again, there are RACE and STREET flywheels, I always recommend the heavier STREET flywheel and ALWAYS MEASURE FLANGE THICKNESS!!! Confirm you have the right bolts before installation.
4) The QM flywheels require the clutch alignment tool to be taped up on the end (I use electrical tape) to be like 0.004" undersized from the hole diameter. Otherwise people will have issues with installation.

NOTES:
*** INSPECT CRANK FLANGE FOR DAMAGE, CLEAN OUT BOLT HOLES AND INSPECT THE THREADS AS WELL AS THE FLYWHEEL BOLTS!!!

*** WITH INSTALLATION OF EITHER SHOWN CLUTCH ASSEMBLY USING THE STANDARD HUB DISKS***
When you are installing all the parts with the clutch cover onto the flywheel, install the alignment tool and be sure to hold the alignment tool slightly up or SQUARE to the flywheel, so when you tighten your stuff down, it doesn't sag and drop the disks down causing troubles with re-installation of your transmission. VISUALLY CHECK THAT THE DISKS ARE CENTERED TO THE FLYWHEEL ALIGNMENT HOLE WITH A FLASHLIGHT AND YOUR EYES AFTER YOU HAVE THE COVER BOLTS HAND TIGHT BEFORE TORQUE'ING DOWN!!!

Your Questions:

1. The flywheel on the car; do I need to do anything with it? Or can I bolt this clutch on and go. I've included a pic of it "flywheel on car": Use the Competition Clutch flywheel instead with the Competition Clutch components and 22.5mm flywheel bolts.

2. I'll need to order the alignment tool for this comp clutch, assuming I can get that through Tim; will go ahead and order a new slave as well while I'm at it. Use an AT20 7/8"x20-spline clutch alignment tool with the Competition Clutch flywheel, it will not need any tape on the end to take up the space, that is only a specific detail that must be done with the Quarter Master flywheels.

3. Assuming I don't have to modify anything with the Comp clutch cover since I'll be installing the Comp forged clutch fork that's designed for this anyways. Correct, no modifications. Use the Comp entire assembly, with the METRIC socket cap screws on the Comp clutch cover. Torque is 22-24 ft/lbs, install all 6 fasteners with washers and hand tighten in star pattern EVENLY down, then torque STAR PATTERN to torque spec above.

4. On the pic "comp clutch layout". On the disc closest to us, it has the words "trans side of engine disc" I assume this disc goes on FIRST, and I should be able to read this lettering when installed, until I install the next ring. I have it laid out how I think it would be layered on; meaning I would pick the ring up that is above the lowest disc, and place it on the first disc, and so on. Your orientation of the components looks correct, but be sure to read what the front disk says on it, I cannot read the text on the disk closest to the pressure plate in the picture.

5. I took a video of my t-case but I can't upload it for some reason? But I e-mailed tim the video of the t-case he asked.
I cannot open the video, just take a couple pictures of the condition of the bearing and bearing race on the input sleeve and front housing. The pictures you had before looked like the outer drive gear bearing (with the race in the side cover) looked fine. The inner bearing on the drive gear typically fails first and will cause nasty noises.

6. If this car makes the power I want, I'm assuming this comp clutch won't last long. I'm not against upgrading now, but will wait for further input. The Comp can handle around 700 TQ, you can run bottom 9's in the 1/4 mile easily on it. When you reach the limits of it, I can discuss other options.
 
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Since I've had the car, it's seen partial throttle and 15 psi, so slippage wouldn't have been apparent. New motor has 75 miles on it :0. Was on my way to get it aligned before I contacted someone for remote tuning, and that's when these issues popped up. But based on this clutch, no way it would have held the power once boost really started to come in.

Thanks for answering all those questions.

1. I have the flywheel bolts that were installed with the Comp flywheel from my last car, I'll measure those and use them. I'm guessing they will be 22.5 mm
2. The current flywheel bolts on the car, what bit/head are those? Looks like 12 point, and are they the same as stock socket size - 19 mm? Additionally, would PB blaster be wise to use on these bolts and let sit? I don't want to strip these and would like to possible resell the flywheel.
3. I will order the alignment tool and new slave today.
4. The disc that you cannot see reads "Trans side of trans disc".
5. I'll get pics of the transfer case items later today.


As I watch that video again. I wonder if my driveshaft is hitting the exhaust, but it doesn't sound like it. Once we confirm it's not the transfer case, I'll check the rear end by pulling off the cover. If it's not that, then... not sure what else it could be.
 
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Just an old mans tip, I have used a part of my wifes broomstick for a clutch pilot tool before (she was wondering why the handle was shorter........I was in trouble since I hacked off about 10" of it). You can sand/grind it down to the diameter you need. Worked for us old timers on domestic vehicles WAY back in the day, but the correct tool is always best (and keeps the wife off your ass too).
Now I am single ROFL
Marty
 
Since I've had the car, it's seen partial throttle and 15 psi, so slippage wouldn't have been apparent. New motor has 75 miles on it :0. Was on my way to get it aligned before I contacted someone for remote tuning, and that's when these issues popped up. But based on this clutch, no way it would have held the power once boost really started to come in.

Thanks for answering all those questions.

1. I have the flywheel bolts that were installed with the Comp flywheel from my last car, I'll measure those and use them. I'm guessing they will be 22.5 mm
2. The current flywheel bolts on the car, what bit/head are those? Looks like 12 point, and are they the same as stock socket size - 19 mm? Additionally, would PB blaster be wise to use on these bolts and let sit? I don't want to strip these and would like to possible resell the flywheel.
3. I will order the alignment tool and new slave today.
4. The disc that you cannot see reads "Trans side of trans disc".
5. I'll get pics of the transfer case items later today.


As I watch that video again. I wonder if my driveshaft is hitting the exhaust, but it doesn't sound like it. Once we confirm it's not the transfer case, I'll check the rear end by pulling off the cover. If it's not that, then... not sure what else it could be.
2. Yeah it looks like a 12 point 19mm socket will be needed. For storage, just put them in a zip lock bag with WD-40.
3. Order received for the slave and AT20 tool, they will ship out today.
4. Yes, then the orientation you have in the photo is the proper orientation. If you want to make it easier to deal with, grab a sharpie marker and mark them as:
Rear disk (mark the backside as flywheel side, front side as floater side)
Front disk (mark the backside as floater side, front side as clutch cover side)
5. Ok sounds good.
 
Pics as requested, I think.

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Double checked the old clutch thickness, and triple checked. All came back within spec.
Removed flywheel on car so now i guess it’s personal preference on which to reinstall?
 
Use the heavier Comp flywheel.

What was the thickness measured for double/ triple checks?

Use the Comp assembly for the clutch.
 
.24x
Would need to measure again for specific, but h measured each disc 10+ times.

Anything appear out of the ordinary for the transfer case ? If not I’ll be bolting it back together and setting aside as one less thing that could be wrong.
 
Tcase looks fine.

Were the noises before during all driving along with clutch pedal depressed as well as clutch engaged? Are the marks on your clutch fork as well as the clutch cover fresh damage where the cover spring screws stick out? It could have been that as an issue.
 
So the driving video is in 3rd gear or so, just holding throttle steady and coasting back home. Clutch was not pressed in obviously.

garage video is just pressing the clutch in and out.

both of these issues appeared at the same time.

pervious owner said the clutch cover bolts were ground down before him. So, long time ago.
 
This is a really good thread. I have the same clutch sitting here. The information in this thread is outstanding. :thumb:
 
Are there any contact marks on the old clutch fork? Please photo.

Otherwise it is time to take apart the transmission.
 
Grinding was from previous owner.

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Drained rear end to look for metal shavings. Nada. Interesting color.

got around 1.5 of these jars out of it.

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