2G Weird sound and clutch issues

[KCDsmDude]

Clutch is QM twin disc, OEM fork that’s been shaved to fit a twin disc, OEM slave and master. Clutch has 7k miles on it over the last 6 year. Transfer case is OEM, original. Trans is a dog box with Liberty faceplated treatment.

The two videos I’m posting are a few minutes apart, took the car to a get an alignment and turned around as soon as this started

the video in my garage, I’m pushing the clutch in and putting the car into 2, 3, and 4th each time you can “hear” something weird, I’m guessing it’s the TOB/clutch issues. Since the sound happens every time I press the clutch in, regardless of gear.

I’ve ordered TMZ comp forged clutch fork, new OEM tob, and new slave.

so for the driving video, can anyone guess what that would be? Anyone had this god awful sound appear? These issues appeared at the same time, the day before the car drove and clutch engaged fine.

I’m also posting a video of me spinning the transfer case by hand, should there be this much “play” in it? Candidate for a rebuild?

I’m posting a couple pics of the pressure plate, one of the teeth is wearing a little different than all the others. Is this a cause for concern?

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Driving video.

Transfer case.

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[jakk220]

That wear on the pressure plate fingers seem a bit excessive to me for only 7k miles. Someone correct me if i'm wrong, as I have never run a twin disk so that may have something to do with it. But I would definitely be looking at the throw out bearing to see if it has seized. From what I can hear in the video, it sounds like my car did when I over adjusted the clutch and crushed my TOB. If the TOB is in good shape, the wear on the pressure plate may be from the TOB not riding on the pressure plate while the clutch is engaged. Even when the pedal is not being pressed, it should still be making contact with the fingers which keeps the bearing spinning at the same speed as the pressure plate. If its not then you might get the wear you see on the fingers. Maybe you shaved to much off of the OEM fork?

Now as for the driving video that sounds like something internal but may be related to the TOB if its bad. The end of that video almost sounds like loose flywheel bolts. Are you sure they were put back on with red locktite? I would also be takign the clutch out and inspecting it as well.

 

[KCDsmDude]

This is my first time working on this car, just purchased it around a month ago. All the parts and work were done by previous owners. Driven it maybe 20 miles myself.

I can take the clutch off as well and inspect (but I’ll have no clue what I’m looking at). ill need to research how/what to do and what not to do since this would be first time installing a twin disc.


In identifying this TOB being bad or not, what should I be looking for?

 

[jakk220]

The center part of the bearing should spin. If it is not smooth as butter its probably bad. Its worth replacing every time you have to take the transmission out anyways.

Once you get it apart just post some pictures. Anything wrong would be fairly obvious. Then you will want to check the flywheel bolts as well to make sure that the did not come loose. I have seen that happen many times. Causes a hell of a ruckus in there an a lot of people mistake it for a rod knock.

If all of those things seem to be proper then it would probably have to be internal. Do you have experience with driving dog box transmissions?

 

[KCDsmDude]

First time with a dog box. Before the car gets put back together, it will have the Boostin Performance KDN H pattern shifter too.

I’ll post some pics when I’m home, trans is out now.

I was worried it was the t case at first, but at this point I’ll just continue to hunt.

 

[jakk220]

I'm willing to bet at least one of the problems is a seized throw out bearing.

 

[KCDsmDude]

I'm willing to bet at least one of the problems is a seized throw out bearing.

I hope that’s the entire problem.

 

[KCDsmDude]

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[KCDsmDude]

wondering if the TOB is traveling far enough to engage the pressure plate properly, but based on the wear of the plate, I'd say so.

Tried to attach a video of me pushing in the slave as well, but the site won't let me.

 

[We're on Boost]

I’m posting a couple pics of the pressure plate, one of the teeth is wearing a little different than all the others. Is this a cause for concern?

https://www.dsmtuners.com/attachments/1de957f3-58d3-4882-8550-828de46a9f97-jpeg.639189/

If this is the pic you mean, the wear from TOB contact on this pp finger looks the same as the other fingers to me.
What's different is the color of the whole finger. That is just the way QM color codes their pressure plates for what strength spring they have in it. They paint one finger some color. Looks like that finger is/was white, which means you have the "white" spring. That is pretty much the default spring and it's a pretty "heavy" spring.
Take a look at the pics of a new QM twin in my build thread, where I put more info about it:

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/1990-talon-tsi-english-racing-build-2016.506651/

 

[KCDsmDude]

Possibly figured out the sound? transfer case does NOT spin freely by hand if the cover is on. I’m trying to turn the shaft that attaches to the driveshaft but it won’t budge.

if I take the cover off just a bit, or completely, I can rotate it. having the cover up this much allows me to rotate it by hand.

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Additionally, the input shaft for the trans to clutch rotates freely as can be. The shaft that plugs into the transfer case rotated a bit by hand, and now won't budge. Should I be able to rotate the transfer case input shaft easily?

 

[KCDsmDude]

https://www.dsmtuners.com/attachments/1de957f3-58d3-4882-8550-828de46a9f97-jpeg.639189/

If this is the pic you mean, the wear from TOB contact on this pp finger looks the same as the other fingers to me.
What's different is the color of the whole finger. That is just the way QM color codes their pressure plates for what strength spring they have in it. They paint one finger some color. Looks like that finger is/was white, which means you have the "white" spring. That is pretty much the default spring and it's a pretty "heavy" spring.
Take a look at the pics of a new QM twin in my build thread, where I put more info about it:

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/1990-talon-tsi-english-racing-build-2016.506651/

Interesting. Thanks for the info!

 

[We're on Boost]

Possibly figured out the sound? transfer case does NOT spin freely by hand if the cover is on. I’m trying to turn the shaft that attaches to the driveshaft but it won’t budge.

if I take the cover off just a bit, or completely, I can rotate it. having the cover up this much allows me to rotate it by hand.


Additionally, the input shaft for the trans to clutch rotates freely as can be. The shaft that plugs into the transfer case rotated a bit by hand, and now won't budge. Should I be able to rotate the transfer case input shaft easily?

Yes you should be able to rotate either one of those shafts, although it will be pretty stiff. Not super easy for just your fingers.

Here's how it goes with my old t-case which is sitting in a box out in the garage and has never been taken apart. It's just like it was when it was taken off the car in 2020, and it's in pretty good shape as far as I know.
I can rotate the input shaft in either direction by gripping it with just my thumb and a finger. But it's pretty stiff. Stiff but smooth.

The output shaft is harder. With thumb and finger protected from the male splines by some paper toweling I could just barely turn it in one direction, but not in the other direction.

There's nothing weird in there like worm gears or anything. It's 2 bevel gears with nearly a 1 to 1 ratio, and 2 pairs of tapered roller bearings, and seals of course. Like this (although this pic is for 1g):

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[KCDsmDude]

Yes you should be able to rotate either one of those shafts, although it will be pretty stiff. Not super easy for just your fingers.

Here's how it goes with my old t-case which is sitting in a box out in the garage and has never been taken apart. It's just like it was when it was taken off the car in 2020, and it's in pretty good shape as far as I know.
I can rotate the input shaft in either direction by gripping it with just my thumb and a finger. But it's pretty stiff. Stiff but smooth.

The output shaft is harder. With thumb and finger protected from the male splines by some paper toweling I could just barely turn it in one direction, but not in the other direction.

There's nothing weird in there like worm gears or anything. It's 2 bevel gears with nearly a 1 to 1 ratio, and 2 pairs of tapered roller bearings, and seals of course. Like this (although this pic is for 1g):

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Gotcha. I’ll test those out on mine, but may pick up an additional transfer case to have on hand in case.

I WAS able to rotate the shaft from trans to transfer case (center shaft in above pic), then it kind of binded up now, not going to attempt to mess with it further.

I’m wondering how hard the transfer cases are to rebuild on our own. May order the rebuild kit from Tim Zimmerman and attempt it on my own. I’ve enjoyed learning how to “mechanic” again, but don’t want to get in over my head.

I’ll keep this thread updated with how things progress. Waiting on a few things to arrive and should be able to get the trans back in and see how things go.

 

[We're on Boost]

I’m wondering how hard the transfer cases are to rebuild on our own. May order the rebuild kit from Tim Zimmerman and attempt it on my own. I’ve enjoyed learning how to “mechanic” again, but don’t want to get in over my head.

I’ll keep this thread updated with how things progress. Waiting on a few things to arrive and should be able to get the trans back in and see how things go.

Yeah, I don't know, I've never had one of these apart. It will probably take a while, a long wait, for Tim to rebuild your core. I mean just because he is so busy. He does really good work though. He puts the amount of care into it that the most fussy owner would put into doing his own. Only better because he knows all the problem areas and knows pretty much every darn thing about it. I have a rough timeline of it in my Specs and Photos under "Drivetrain", but the dog box was what took so long on that project, and finding a good enough tranny core to start from. We didn't use my transmission core because it was broken. The good used tranny I eventually found came with a T-case so we used that for the core, rather than my old t-case.
I actually didn't mind the wait all that much, and I was not about to try doing it myself!

To be clear about above where I said I could only turn the output shaft one way. I think it was just a matter of hand geometry. If I had used my other hand to turn it the other way, I probably could have. Or if I had some soft jaw pliers, that would probably make it easy.

The center shaft that sticks out of the tranny after the t-case is taken off, man I don't know, it seems like it should rotate. But it's right in the center of the designer's nightmare. The center diff, the viscous coupling, the front output shaft and front diff, holy cow. Makes me want to go take a nap !

 

[KCDsmDude]

Unless someone sees or hears something I don’t, I’m going to rule out the t case. This was shockingly simple to take apart.

no missing or worn teeth on any gear. Rotated by hand freely with the tail section off. Am
I missing anything. Guess the only thing is when I’m rotating it, it’s louder than I expected.

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[We're on Boost]

Yeah it looks pretty good I think.
This would be a good time to read through the 2g factory service manual section for the Transfer Case.
I just looked at it. They talk about backlash, spacers, tooth contact wear pattern. They even give what the turning torque should be for each shaft.
Stuff like this:

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Do you have a pdf copy of the factory manual for the transaxle?

 

[KCDsmDude]

I e-mailed the video and pics to @twicks69 and he wants me to remove the input sleeve and look at it from the inside-out.


@We're on Boost, when it says the rotating torque, how exactly would someone apply 1.7-2.5 lbs to something? And seems I'll need a micrometer to measure the gear set backlash.

And, can you link me to the FSM?

 

[XC92]

@We're on Boost, when it says the rotating torque, how exactly would someone apply 1.7-2.5 lbs to something? And seems I'll need a micrometer to measure the gear set backlash.

FWIW I was able to rotate the input shaft of my '92 t-case by hand and see a matching rotation of its output shaft, but I needed some leverage and used the output shaft of my trans when it was taken apart. It offered around the same amount of resistance as the input shaft of my trans, which I needed a clutch disc to turn, but in both cases the movement was smooth with no binding or jerking. I didn't use a torque wrench or meter but it didn't require that much force. My rough guess is several ft-lb, well less than 5.

And the way to measure the amount of torque needed to initially move it is to, well, use a torque wrench, in this case a 1/4" one measured in in-lb, not ft-lb. The hard part is finding a proper way to use it to rotate the input shaft. You might be able to use a socket for this, if you're careful to not mar the splines, maybe an SAE one.

 

[KCDsmDude]

Thanks for the information.

Another general question. I have a QM 7.25 clutch that came with the car, if I pull the clutch off at any time, I won't ever be able to re attach it. I have an old ACT alignment tool laying around, think I just bought it... just to buy it at one point in time, but that doesn't slide in between the discs of both the QM I have on the car (the alignment tool is too thick), and a twin disc Comp clutch I have here from a previous car.

Is there a specific tool for the QM?

 

[XC92]

Sorry, can't help you with that. I've changed my clutch exactly once, an SBC Stage 2 DD, using the included alignment tool. I look forward to the next change, specifically to having to reinstall the trans, like I look forward to my next 10 root canals.

However I'm sure others here will be able to help you find the right tool.

 

[jakk220]

Thanks for the information.

Another general question. I have a QM 7.25 clutch that came with the car, if I pull the clutch off at any time, I won't ever be able to re attach it. I have an old ACT alignment tool laying around, think I just bought it... just to buy it at one point in time, but that doesn't slide in between the discs of both the QM I have on the car (the alignment tool is too thick), and a twin disc Comp clutch I have here from a previous car.

Is there a specific tool for the QM?

What do you mean its too thick?

 

[KCDsmDude]

What do you mean its too thick?

The alignment tool won't slide in/out of the center of the clutch discs, making it impossible to align.

I'll double/triple check later tonight just to make sure I'm not insane. But will include pics if it doesn't work

 

[jakk220]

Well if that the case then either something is misaligned or your tool is the wrong one / messed up.

 

[twicks69]

Is this with a dogbox car, or a stock transmission car? I thought your email you sent said you had a dogbox, which uses a 1"x23 spline AT03 clutch alignment tool (same as Evo). Which exact quarter master clutch are you using? 6 leg? 8 leg? silver 2 piece flywheel or black 1 piece flywheel? The gear drive disk pack uses an AT20 7/8"x20-spline tool for the stock size input shaft, and a 1"x23 spline AT03 clutch alignment tool for PPG/PAR dogbox transmissions that have a larger input shaft size / spline count. Also, with certain flywheels, the clutch alignment hole is larger and the alignment tool needs to be taped to fit the hole size of the flywheel. It just depends on which exact clutch and flywheel assembly you are using.

As for the tcase, remove the side cover and remove the input sleeve and drive gear and fully inspect the bearings. The inner tapered roller bearing is notorious for premature failure vs. the rest of the bearings.

As for turning torque, with used stuff set up without much preload it should be easy to turn by hand disassembled or assembled. With some of my race ones that have a bit higher preload on the drive gear and the pinion preload it can be firmer to turn and require an output shaft installed into the tcase or a slip yoke on the tail shaft to rotate.