Tuning is NOT WORKING (WISEMEN PLEASE GIVE SOM INSIGHT)

[TalonspoolAWD]

I have a 1G with a AGP 50trim,680cc injectors, Walboro 255LP, STock FPR,FMIC. I am running about 22psi and with my logger it will show about 14-18 counts of knock at .82V but the car pulls REALLY GOOD. If i tune for no knock at .86-.88volts and get no knock then the car does not move good and on a 1st gear launch it will just break up like crazy like its to rich same in second at the higher RPM's ALong with all the other gears it will break up around 6200 and feel slower I thought it was to lean but putting it on the WB 02 sensor it shows like 10-12.1 at WOT. For some reason i dont see how this logger can be correct. It says my high Fuel trim is 110, but if i richen it up the trim will not change and 1st and scond gear are USELESS, on a launch it will just studder. I have my AFC set to about -25-28 for the High. The WB02 says i am RICH AS HELLm WHILE THE LOGGER SAYS .86-.88 and a High FT of 110.5, and its says i am lean for the low trim at around 107, and the low is at -17. I am using a 2G MAF in my 1G also. BASICALLY Its like i can get it to pull good and have knock then it will pull like crap with almost no knock. If i get the knock on the car really low it runs like shit, if i have the knock it pulls EXTEMELY HARD, and the 02 voltage is like .80-.82 with 15counts. Anyone got any ideas. I rather have knock and have it pull then have no knock and have it sound like gas is coming out the tailpipe. I also only got 180miles out of my WHOLE TANK. I like to launch the car but its worthless since it will just STUDDER and pop and BARELY MOVE. It gets better as i lean it out on the top end, but then i will have low 02 voltages such as .78-.82 and lots of knock.

 

[Blk_99gst]

I know 2g's better than 1g's, but I can try and help you out. You really want to tune for no knock. If you think you are too rich, then maybe it's because you have other problems. Have you ever replaced the front o2 sensor and/or the knock sensor. You might need to do that. You mentioned fuel trims, but during WOT runs, those aren't used at all. You'll want to tune the low safc settings so that all the fuel trims are right around 100%.

One things that I think is critical that you never mentioned is timing advance. What's it doing? If you are getting 14-18 counts of knock, then you're timing should be getting pulled. And if that's the case, then you're car is not running properly even though it may feel faster. And I wouldn't operate it at 14-18 counts of knock just because it feels fast. That can't be good for the motor and it may eventually go.

You also mentioned wideband 02's being 10-12.1 at WOT. So what EXACTLY is it? 10 to 12 is a HUGE range. Usually when we talk about wideband, we'll tune for 11.0:1, where 11.5:1 might be getting a little lean. So your range is way too big. If you are at 10:1, then I would say you are too rich. If you're at 12.1:1, then you are too lean.

 

[TalonspoolAWD]

It is at 10 then goes to about 12 after a being under boost. I thought that we were suppose to tune for 14.7 but maye shoot for around 13's just to be safe. The car i KNOW is way to rich just by the feel of it. Why would my logger read a 02 voltage of .78 when the car runs good but at .86-.88 it runs like shit and has no pull but also no knock. The difference is NIGHT and DAY with the power and its ESPECIALLY NOTICABLE WITH THE GAS GAUGE, 180 miles on 16 Gallons is not good at all. It just that it seems when i get the car to run correct it will run good for that minute and run totally different at WOT the next minute. I replace the KS with a new one about 3 weeks ago, but the 02 sensor has not been replaced because it didnt seem like it needed to be replaced yet, it still reads correct cause when the car runs good its at the Stocih and rich mark, but when it runs like shit its at the LAST bar on the RICH side, if i tune it for .78 on the logger and she pulls good one minute at WOT the next time it might be WAY to rich, even though i just had it at the perfect spot. Could it be the FPR maybe cause its stock

 

[Blk_99gst]

It is at 10 then goes to about 12 after a being under boost. I thought that we were suppose to tune for 14.7 but maye shoot for around 13's just to be safe.

No, 14.7:1 at wot would be very very bad!!! For idle and normal crusing around town, the ecu is in closed loop mode where it is constantly trying to maintain the ideal a/f ratio of 14.7:1. The ecu will look at the o2 voltage after combustion, then adjust its fuel trims to try and achieve the perfect ratio. This again is for normal driving and the low-safc settings. For WOT runs, we need to be richer than 14.7:1; more around 11.0:1 on pump gas. That's the recommendation. You can do some searching to see what people run on their widebands at wot.

The car i KNOW is way to rich just by the feel of it.

How do you KNOW it feels rich. The car can be slow because it's too rich. It can also be slow because it's too lean and timing is getting pulled.

The difference is NIGHT and DAY with the power and its ESPECIALLY NOTICABLE WITH THE GAS GAUGE, 180 miles on 16 Gallons is not good at all.

Usually, bad gas milage points to a bad front o2 sensor, or REALLY bad tuning of the low-safc settings. Most of the time is spent normal closed loop ecu driving; we're not driving around at WOT 90% of the time. So if you're getting bad gas mileage, then the front o2 sensor can be giving the ecu bad/incorrect values and it's dumping more gas into the system. Or it could have failed already and thrown a check engine light, and maybe your check engine light bulb is burned out. Also bad fuel mileage could be spark plugs, and a clogged fuel filter.

but the 02 sensor has not been replaced because it didnt seem like it needed to be replaced yet, it still reads correct cause when the car runs good its at the Stocih and rich mark, but when it runs like shit its at the LAST bar on the RICH side

If you have a blinky a/f gauge, I would recommend getting rid of it. You can't use it to tune by, and adding other items to the o2 wire can be bad; pulls voltage and current off the line and actually CHANGE the o2 voltage that the ecu sees. Do you have a lot of items tapped into the o2 voltage wire? But the blinky a/f gauge should oscillate between lean and rich during normal driving, and should be way in the rich side (richest led or one less than that) during wot.

 

[92awddsm]

I would not tune by the o2 voltage. Tune with the wideband. You might also have a bad o2 sensor giving you bad readings. As for the knock, Im assuming that you are running 22 psi on pump gas, right? Turn the boost down to 20 psi with pump and Im almost sure the knock will go away. If you are determined to run 22psi, turn the base timing back and it will help alittle.

 

[TalonspoolAWD]

I am SURE that the car is to rich. IN 1ST gear which is the Rich Gear it breaks up all to hell. If i add lots of fuel for the HIGH on the S-afc it runs even shittier. If i have it at around -27% it runs well but my plugs are white like its to lean, but i am not sure if thats cause of the LOW trims being to lean and causing the plugs to turn white.

 

[burldude]

Man I am pretty new to this all but if your plugs are white than you better just start re mapping your afc and richen everything up before you pinch a ring or blow a head gasket.

 

[SlowSpyder]

maybe try getting an aftermarket fpr to control that walbro 255lph pump you have

 

[Blk_99gst]

I am SURE that the car is to rich

Um, NO you do not. Let's review some things you've said. Wideband ratio's of 12.1:1; indicates lean. White tip spark plugs, indicates lean. Lots of knock, usually indicates lean. And you're sure you're running rich because...

IN 1ST gear which is the Rich Gear it breaks up all to hell.

Ah, that made me laugh. Why on EARTH would you say 1st gear is the "rich gear"! What kind of comment is that? Can you prove it, can you explain why it's the richest gear. Man, that's one of the most off the wall comments I have ever read.

You do know that with bigger injectors and a safc, that YOU the tuner controls at WOT how rich or lean all the gears together are. If you are set at -27% across the board, then you will be -27% during 1st gear, 2nd and 3rd gear. The bigger the gear the more load on the engine, and the more tuning comes into play. If you would ever read any threads about tuning, you would see people tune for 3rd gear. That's a good load on the engine and there's a good amount of time between 3000rpm and 7000rpm. People don't tune 1st gear because it goes by in a split second. So if you could get your car tuned for 3rd gear, then 2nd and 1st should be fine.

If i have it at around -27% it runs well but my plugs are white like its to lean

Yes, more evidence that you're rich...

but my plugs are white like its to lean, but i am not sure if thats cause of the LOW trims being to lean and causing the plugs to turn white.

Again, if you read more threads about tuning OR if you just read some of my posts above, then you would know that at idle and normal crusing speeds, the ecu is in closed loop mode and is in control of the a/f ratio. It will constantly run 14.7:1 (via its fuel trims) which is normal, and will get you normal gas mileage and normal color plugs. If you're low safc settings are way out of wack, then you'll throw a fuel trim check engine light. Or you could have other problems at idle and normal cruiseing speeds if you have an o2 sensor problem. White tipped spark plugs come from WOT runs.

What else do you want from us? You obviously need to read up a LOT more about tuning. You have recommendations on what to do. Replace your o2 sensor. Turn down the boost. You're trying to push the envelope and run a 50 trim at 22psi on pump with very little tuning experience. Turn down the boost to say 16psi, and try tuning that. It will be a lot easier.

 

[GORBS88]

OK, here is my 2 cents worth....i am new to the dsm world, but.... if your plugs are white and it is so called breakin up in the (rich) gear then to me thats lean, you are gettin lean misfire....But if you are stuck on it bein rich then do what (slow spyder) said and run a FPR...you cant run a 255 without it....the stock reggy cant flow enough....thats if you think its rich.....later..

 

[Erok]

ok, some one might have said this but im not going to read all 30 long ass posts, i read yours and the next but here is what you need to know,

FIRST- a 255 with no fuel control is very bad, buy an adjustable fuel regulator or a smaller fuel pump.

SECOND- a 1v. o2 sensor (narrowband/stock o2 sensor) is crap, dont try to tune with a narrow band, first it is inacurate, second it gives false readings because it will get to hot very fast and read like shit. ALSO- when going WOT you dont use a narrow band, when in open loop the ecu doesnt really use the o2, get a WB 5v. o2, then you can finely tune at WOT.(with out wideband, use timing/knock)

THIRD- the fuel trim doesnt matter when wot or above the averagly set 30% throttle on the afc, even though your low settings need to be ritchened up, because your at 110% on your low fuel trim, you want to tune for 100% and it is reading 110 because the computer is trying to compensate because you are too lean so it is giving it more fuel, neg/plus 10% isnt horible, but you want to have it more around 95%/105% and ultimatly 100% is the main goal, remember if you get it closer to 100% drive it for a couple days and make sure the ecu doesnt try to readjust your trim, obviously your lft isnt the major problem here, but this is just FYI...

good luck bro, and trust the WB...
ps. try to find someone else's datalogger to compare to yours, maybe thats you prob... and check your o2 sensor
good luck
erik

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Am I the only person who tunes to have knock? At 0 counts my cars slow as hell.

 

[turbowop]

Am I the only person who tunes to have knock? At 0 counts my cars slow as hell.

I just try to keep knock counts below 10 on pump gas (92 octane). That way pulled timing is kept to a minimum.

On race gas (110 octane for me) I turn up the boost a few psi, advance base timing to 10 degrees and lean it out until I see one or two counts of knock and then richen it back up a few percent to keep it on the safe side. If egt's start getting a little high at that point I may richen it up a little more. Tuning is a little different every time I go to the track so I just tune on the way there.

 

[kpt4321]

Am I the only person who tunes to have knock? At 0 counts my cars slow as hell.

That's what happens when you tune with larger than stock injectors and airflow modifications.

When you're tuning, you're simply optimizing the way and time that the fuel burns in order to exert the maxium pressure on the piston. With a standalone, or DSMLink, you can change timing and fuel independently so that they both match what you need.

With bigger injectors and a SAFC, you're stuck moving both at the same time, so the combination of timing and AFR at 10 knock sum is simply better than the combination at 0.

I bet if you played with fuel flow (injector size or base pressure) you could get it in better shape.

My car (DSLink-ish) is fastest at 0-4 knock sum.

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

That's what happens when you tune with larger than stock injectors and airflow modifications.

When you're tuning, you're simply optimizing the way and time that the fuel burns in order to exert the maxium pressure on the piston. With a standalone, or DSMLink, you can change timing and fuel independently so that they both match what you need.

With bigger injectors and a SAFC, you're stuck moving both at the same time, so the combination of timing and AFR at 10 knock sum is simply better than the combination at 0.

I bet if you played with fuel flow (injector size or base pressure) you could get it in better shape.

My car (DSLink-ish) is fastest at 0-4 knock sum.

Thats not the issue, it's an airflow/afr issue. My car simply can't run a decent afr at 23 psi, which is what I run on pump gas, without knocking. If I lower the boost, I get slower as well. 23 PSI and about 7-9 counts is where my car like to haul ass.

 

[laserrs]

I think someone in this group of long ass posts said sumthing about does anyone tune their car to have knock, i let my car knock around 13 counts and it pulls very hard at 0 knock it had barely any power. my heads decked and ive got a stock intercooler so thats prolly why.

 

[sherloc123]

my car ran faster with some knock and so has almost every one else i know with a dsm. as long as the knock count isnt that high it shouldnt hurt any thing

 

[92awddsm]

My car runs fine and pulls hard with 0 knock. If you car doesnt run good without some knock, your cam timing is probably way off. If you have decked the block or machined the head alot, you need to get adjustable cam gears to bring cam timing back into spec. It might only be a couple of degrees out but thats enough to make a huge differance in performance.

 

[TalonspoolAWD]

WoW! It seems like its the BLIND leading the BLIND. MY car hauls as with some knock count also, if my knock is in the 0 then its so rich its slow as hell, i guess WHAT REALLY HAS TO HAPPEN IS EVERYONE HAS TO KNOW THERE CAR AND WHAT IT LIKES TO RUN AT, THEN TUNE FOR A GOOD A/F RATIO AND THE LEAST AMOUNT OF KNOCK YOU CAN BEFORE THE CAR RUNS LIKE CRAP. AND 1ST gear is ALWAYS RICHER THEN THE REST CAUSE IT IS ONLY UNDER LOAD FOR A SHORTER RPM BAND, AND NOT AS LONG AS THE OTHER GEARS, THEREFORE 1st WILL YEILD A RICHER STATE THEN THE REST.

 

[sherloc123]

tom, dj said if its running 0 knock and rich to lean it out some then and see what happend and to use the wide band to tune

 

[92awddsm]

WoW! It seems like its the BLIND leading the BLIND. MY car hauls as with some knock count also, if my knock is in the 0 then its so rich its slow as hell, i guess WHAT REALLY HAS TO HAPPEN IS EVERYONE HAS TO KNOW THERE CAR AND WHAT IT LIKES TO RUN AT, THEN TUNE FOR A GOOD A/F RATIO AND THE LEAST AMOUNT OF KNOCK YOU CAN BEFORE THE CAR RUNS LIKE CRAP. AND 1ST gear is ALWAYS RICHER THEN THE REST CAUSE IT IS ONLY UNDER LOAD FOR A SHORTER RPM BAND, AND NOT AS LONG AS THE OTHER GEARS, THEREFORE 1st WILL YEILD A RICHER STATE THEN THE REST.

I wouldnt really consider myself blind. Like I said, if the cam timing is off, It can cause knock. And when you throw more fuel to it as a band aid, its rich as hell. Just because you get knock doesnt mean its lean. Why do people always think that unless they(TalonspoolAWD) are blind and closed minded themselves.

 

[TalonspoolAWD]

YA, looks like i am the blind one here. I ask a question and it turns into a whole bunch of shit that has nothing to do with the topic, and one person says this and the other says that, THEREFORE ITS THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND, and really no-one knows what really has to happen everyone has a opinion. As i do have my opinions also and people question my judgement on my own car that i built myself, how many people actually build there own stuff anymore, my tranny blew up so i rebuilt it myself and pressed the new syncros and hub on *MYSELF, I fully understand cars and know my car like the back of my hand, i even used to work at mitsu, When someone wants to question my judgement on my own car i can already tell u that they are just guessing also. I even stated that the wideband was reading rich at 10 and everyone is telling me my car is lean, when i can look at the exhaust and the muffler is wet with gas and i only go 180 miles in 16gallons. The plugs could be white for many reasons that would have not had to do with me boosting the car. I can tell you that the tuning is messed up, i am not gonna lie about that, it just seems that its constantly changing and NEVER is accurate like it should be. I guess that i am better off just playing with it myself because it already know that its almost IMPOSSIBLE to diagnose a persons car without being there, EVERYTHING WOULD BE A GUESS WITHOUT ACTUALLY BEING THERE HANDS ON.

 

[92awddsm]

Im not doubting your abilities at all but if your having problems and ask for suggestions, dont get pissed when its not what you want to hear. You should atleast keep an open mind but if your sure its tuning, pay someone that knows how or just practice and learn how to do it yourself. No one can tell you how you should tune your your own car because I beleive all of our cars are differant.

edit-And the tune will never stay the same from day to day as long as you have the 255 and sfpr. I know from experience.

 

[Bastard1g]

I saw this thread on another board and it got me thinking that maybe someone should come forward with concrete information that the new guys know who to trust. Only reason that is being said is because everyone is bashing everyones methods and I dont think anyone knows who to look to for solutions.


http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122404&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

 

[Blk_99gst]

WoW! It seems like its the BLIND leading the BLIND. MY car hauls as with some knock count also, if my knock is in the 0 then its so rich its slow as hell, i guess WHAT REALLY HAS TO HAPPEN IS EVERYONE HAS TO KNOW THERE CAR AND WHAT IT LIKES TO RUN AT, THEN TUNE FOR A GOOD A/F RATIO AND THE LEAST AMOUNT OF KNOCK YOU CAN BEFORE THE CAR RUNS LIKE CRAP. AND 1ST gear is ALWAYS RICHER THEN THE REST CAUSE IT IS ONLY UNDER LOAD FOR A SHORTER RPM BAND, AND NOT AS LONG AS THE OTHER GEARS, THEREFORE 1st WILL YEILD A RICHER STATE THEN THE REST.

People who have to use all caps to shout their statements (and subject titles) across are annoying. :thumbdown