Tubular Header attempt for fp3065

[antilag_200]

Wow that came out great!!!!

Thank you I appreciated it

saweeett!! I wanna see this thing mounted! Looks great. Good work!

definitely can't wait to see it in the engine bay, thanks

That turned out pretty great for your first attempt and being new to tig welding! I hope to get something similar going sometime soon. Just bought myself a tig welder and what better way to practice than doing something like this!

Where did you get all of your straight and bend sections? Or even the flanges?

Cool enjoy the fabrication and design, it is a lot of fun and a great learning experience. straight sections and bends were sourced through acestainless, flanges from threadstone performance and turbo-flanges

Wild looking outcome.

was shooting for something that looked different from the typical set ups that you normally see. The car is unique as there are not too many AWD colts around, so I think this manifold fits it well.

Dude that looks freaking boss. The only gripe I have about it is that I have nothing to reference how large it is, but it looks MASSIVE from the pictures. It looks like you wouldn't be able to have a radiator or a hood anymore from some angles, .

it is pretty large and in charge, I will try to get some pictures of a turbo attached to it for reference. thanks for the kind words

Are you going to be able to bolt it up to the turbo ? looks kinda tight

I should be able to , as my fixture was tailored around a stock manifold. The only areas that could be tight, are around the wastegate.

I'm no manifold expert, but wouldn't having the collector that far from the turbo really effect velocity on the exhaust? I would be worried about the affect on spool I guess.

The collector is about 3 inches away from the flange, that is one of the big things with the design, accomodating a stock location, top mount, with with over 2 feet of runner length, there will have to be compromises in my opinion. I don't think it will do too bad in the spool department, in either case, it is attached to a ball bearing 3065, so spool isn't too big of a deal for me. Not to mention, it will help with traction for this short wheel base car .

 

[antilag]

minor clearance issue with the large body of the square flanged wastegate that shouldn't be too difficult correct, but here is the general look in the car.

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[codym]

Jeez that's close to the timing belt. I think you should get this one coated.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Jeez that's close to the timing belt. I think you should get this one coated.

I'm not sure coating will do much, i mean it's REALLY close to the timing belt. Which is one of the most crucial parts of your car if not THE most.

You could try dei heat wrap. It could help

 

[wishihadatalon]

A simple heat shield is all he needs and I know he is already planning on building one for that.

 

[bryanwheat]

The belt will still get lots of heat even with a heat shield. I would double wrap that runner just in case.

 

[antilag]

The plan is as much shielding as possible. A shield with reflective tape, and possibly a double layer shield, looking into coating options currently including for the sieild and then wrapping. We are also in the process of placing a vent in the hood above the timing belt area. We will be monitoring belt temps after drives,passes, road course laps, etc.... until we are comfortable that enough is in place......

Really didn't think I would have to post up that shielding was going to be in place until at least the full fab work of the manifold and clearances was complete......My bad.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

I'm curious how you plan to fit so much shielding in that space, what is the clearance? 1"? Less?

I guess i find it odd to have such long runners going to such weird places when the turbo still ended up in the stock position. Creating alot of unnecessary heat too.
looking at it mounted you'd think it should be a forward facing manifold.

Good job none the less. If you can do one, you can do two.

I'm curious, how come you didn't opt for a top mount? Or a different location for the turbo?

 

[antilag]

The whole purpose of this first manifold was first just tig welding while keeping everything in the stock location and utilizing the benefits of a long runner manifold. In this case we went with 28" runners. We weren't trying to fab an entire system right now, ie manifold, O2 housing, cooling system if we have to move or get a different radiator. Everything in the colt is much tighter than a 1g or 2g so just wanted to leave everything else where it is for now.

Also, not sure what unnecessary heat you are refering to. We wanted 28" runners no matter what for this one.


As for shielding, coating, wrap, shield with reflective tape, and then at least 1/2" to the belt is easily doable.

 

[antilag_200]

Folks, thanks for the comments. As jeremy( antilag) was saying.. There are a few tweeks that are required on the manifold. There is definitely, a very limited amount of room, with this particular car's engine bay, which thus causes the associated constraints.

Runner 1 is very close to the timing belt. That is a given, the direction with the manifold in regards to heat managment was one that required mitgation through, ceramic coating. The initial plan, was to submit the piece to FFWDconnection, however due to the relatively complicated nature of this manifold, it would prove challenging for them to coat this manifold ( both inside and outside).

I have found a company here in michigan, that is going to do the coating for this piece with reasonable economics as well. In regards to a heat shield, as TJ and jeremy have said, It will be a simple piece of stainless plate, that bolts to the valve cover and maybe the Timing belt tins. At this point, the situation is here, we have arrived at the bridge, now we just have to come up with the methods to try and cross it. IMO, ceramic coating, dei wrap in that location, a heat shield and maybe some of that fancy gold tape, should minimize the heat at the timing belt. Only time will tell.

Thank you all, for your interest in the little project. I will say, there is NO denying, that this definitely has the "WTF" Factor when the hood is opened

 

[antilag_200]

I really have not had a lot of time, to mess with this manifold, but here are a couple of shots, of the heat sheild that I made for it. Basically, welded a couple of nuts onto the runner, and added a piece of stainless. Additionally a bung was placed to accept an egt probe. It is furthur away from the flange, than I would have liked, but it will serve its purpose for now.

P.S ignore the bolts holding the shield on, they are temporary placeholders.

Additionally, I have been porting the manifold, around the flanges, so that things are nice and smooth, pictures of that later.

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Regards

warren

 

[BoostedinSoFla]

So I guess no one will be honest huh? That thing is a monstrosity of a mess. I commend you on trying though, at least the welds aren't bad.

 

[antilag_200]

One is always entitled to their opinion .

Finished porting the runners last night, just a quick clean up to transistion the pieces together

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a shot of all 4 runners .. I used a carbide bit and then sanding drums to get the finish ..

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A picture of the turbo flange, you will notice that I welded another flange on there, which effectively dropped the vertical postion of the turbo in an effort to save runner number 4. hopefully it works as intended

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Next I have to make a M10 BY 1.25 Stud, that reduces to a M8 by 1.25 section, that way the footprint is reduced where the manifold bolts to the turbine housing

Additionally the concensus is to leave it uncoated, monitor temperatures, and decide at that point whether coating is a necessity versus a luxury

Thank you for looking

regards

w

 

[UofACATS]

We wanted 28" runners

What is the benefit here?

Also, have you weighed the manifold?

 

[antilag]

Here is a pretty good article on turbo header design. For this trial manifold, we wanted to try the longer end of the extreme.
Burns Stainless LLC Technology - Turbo Headers

Between the Shearer T4 top mount and Full race T3 bottom mount we have, the weight is close. Not sure on the exact weight yet however. Once we have results on this one, we may try other revisions, including trying thinner wall SS.

We also went ahead and put a thermal coating on it.

Its from Tech Line Coatings and we went with a titanium color.

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Had the manifold media blasted for prep and then sprayed it on with a paint gun. Came out pretty nice so far. Letting it dry and then will be taking it to someone with an oven to cure it.

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[turbotalon1g]

Nice, thanks for posting this project.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

Whats the idea for using a really nice merge collector then to ruin it with a bit of pie sections on The flanges? I think you could have gone a much better route on this if you thought it through more. Great attempt though.

 

[antilag_200]

Just to finish up the thread for those that were intereted. The manifold is complete for the most part and on the vehicle

More importantly, we started the car with the new exhaust manifold on, and took some temperature readings at the heatshield near the timing belt. We were pleased with the exhaust note of the car as well.
The skin temperature of the manifold in that area was 260 degrees, while the cover brought the temp down to the 150s, so more than a 100 degree drop in temperatures.

Another interesting note, was the EGT in number 1 was around 840 degrees, while the skin temperature of the manifold was in the 530 range. quite the difference.

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Thank you for looking. It was an amazing learning experience and I am looking forward to making my second manifold for my neighbor with the difference being an FP black turbo in potentially a forward facing style. If you are at the shootout this year, and see the car, come over and say hello

regards

warren

 

[keltalon]

Just to finish up the thread for those that were intereted. The manifold is complete for the most part and on the vehicle

More importantly, we started the car with the new exhaust manifold on, and took some temperature readings at the heatshield near the timing belt. We were pleased with the exhaust note of the car as well.
The skin temperature of the manifold in that area was 260 degrees, while the cover brought the temp down to the 150s, so more than a 100 degree drop in temperatures.

Another interesting note, was the EGT in number 1 was around 840 degrees, while the skin temperature of the manifold was in the 530 range. quite the difference.

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Thank you for looking. It was an amazing learning experience and I am looking forward to making my second manifold for my neighbor with the difference being an FP black turbo in potentially a forward facing style. If you are at the shootout this year, and see the car, come over and say hello

regards

warren

Hat's off to you very nice job!!

 

[92AWDHX40]

Very nice looking great.

 

[codym]

Looks great man, especially with that coating.

 

[boost97gst]

Thats a whole lotta manifold. Looks amazing though(and amazingly complex). Great work

 

[dsmcrzy]

Great job! Nice to see it all done!

 

[UofACATS]

Here is a pretty good article on turbo header design. For this trial manifold, we wanted to try the longer end of the extreme.
Burns Stainless LLC Technology - Turbo Headers

Interesting. I'll note the article specifies 15-25" length.
"Longer tube headers (between 15" and 25" runner length) improve turbo spool time, provide better boost and are less prone to cracking."


These benefits are suspect IMO.

I think header design (great example in the article) provides superior benefit in resisting cracking rather than a generic total length. Also, one of the main factors in reducing stresses is in the use of double-slip connectors (again, referencing the article).

Actually improving spool time using longer piping is something I disagree with. The home-brew tests show the short log manifolds spool earlier. Taking this to the extreme of rear-mount turbos, the trend seems to hold. Links to testing below..

As for the header "providing better boost," this seems suspiciously vague. What's better boost? I can get behind the idea that the top-end power will be improved, if they can be considered the same (debatable).

Nevertheless, props again on the fabrication and thank you for sharing your experience. I know it's easy to sit back and critique so I hope you view my comments as constructive and/or instructive. Regardless of any possible shortcomings you've designed and built something original. It's well worth this discussion and will probably influence future home-built manifolds more than we can imagine. That's something to be commended.








TESTING:


1. "The log manifold spooled the turbo about 250-300 rpm SOONER than the equal length"
Full-Race log vs header test: FINALLY -- TURBO MANIFOLD TEST (What happens when a log manifold is changed to a Full Race Manifold? - Honda-Tech


2. "The shorter the runners the faster the spool."
my spool results of log vs tubular manifolds logs spool was faster but make was less - Honda-Tech


3. a log manifold can spool faster than a tuned manifold. This is because a turbo is driven partly by heat energy and expansion of the hot exhaust gasses. The longer tubes in a tuned header tend to dissipate a lot of this heat energy before the turbo
Read more: Turbo Manifold - Turbo & High-Tech Performance Page 2

 

[YoYo_4G63]

looked better without the coating