Torque vs horsepower?

[AWDforthewin]

Okay guys I have a 95 gsx that I wish to daily drive currently finishing getting my parts as follows

Hx35 dsm housing
Ported FP race manifold
STM o2 housing atmo dump tube
Tial 38mm WG on O2 housing
ECM link v3
Walbro 255
FIC injectors? Idk what size
Regulator for fuel
Maybe cams?
Full 3" exhaust cattless

Now this would be on a stock rebuilt motor

I don't want the hx35 to be super laggy so want to run about 20-25 psi and make around 400 hp maybe a little more since it's only on a stock motor... I heard this is possible as long as I keep my torque numbers a little lower?

Opinions?
Also what size of injectors would you recommend?
What good would a fuel pimp rewire do?
And if I left anything out of my list feel free to recommend I may have forgot things I'm tired sorry for all the questions !

 

[CrackedDSM]

Apparently sarcasm is a foreign language to some of you.

 

[untouchablecc]

If its a street car get the HY-35 its a little smaller, or the 16G. I have a small 16g with meth for street and I haven't been beat 0-60 yet.

What the heck are you talking about? He isn't going t3. If he was then he would be good for an hy35 over a hx35 being that he would be using a 9 cm housing over a 12cm twin scroll housing. He is running an hx35 in a BEP housing which is no where near as laggy as a hy35. Since they don't make a bolt on housing for an hy35 this is just bad advice all the way around for him. He wants a "quick spooling steet car" that makes 400 or so whp.

Turbos in that range list anwhere from a td06sl2 20g, hx35 bep, hta71, fp green, blah blah. the list goes on but full t3 hx35, hx40 and hy35 are all closer to 500hp turbos with much more lag.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

OP - It would be worth your while to setup dual fuel maps with the flex fuel sensor support in Link V3.

Based on what you've described with relatively little investment, you could have a blast with a well prepped Evo 3 16G car on E85.

Awd would only be superior in a top speed run if you were having traction issues with fwd.

Well the car is intended to go to the salt flats eventually where it's going to be running on 3.x" wide pizza-cutter style tires. Everyone is going to have traction issues under those circumstances.. but then there's gearing, parasitic losses, heat from those losses, more to break.. also add in not having a diff/subframe in the back disrupting flow under the car.. more esoteric things like center of mass vs. center of pressure.. there's a lot of reasons I chose FWD for this project. I have had and enjoyed both, could have done either.

All the current record holders in those classes are FWD by the way.

To address the missed sarcasm (I caught it at least ):
I've never pretended to be a "representative of the FWD" community, Kelvin. None of what I do is for show or recognition, you could take a lesson from that perhaps. It's why I don't have a build blog or make threads about the arbitrary things I've done to seek validation from others..

So let's not have what's looking like a decent thread get derailed by a dude who claims to have "blocked" me but was still PMing me love notes on Saturday night, several days after my last interaction in a thread he made some wild claims in..

 

[codym]

Codym, a 20g isn't going to take till 4500 to spool. My b16g with obx manifold spools to my full boost (18psi) by 3100 rpms, and it comes on so hard that low in the range that it torque steers me almost out of my lane in 1, 2 and 3. Sure if I'm in 5th and drop to 4th and gun it that's fine, or just gunning it in 5th (since cruising speed usually = around 3000 rpms).

The bigger point of this whole thing, is he is going to be tapping out a 16g just trying to atain his goal, and it will be running at max output every time he gets to his boost pressure which will need to be mid-high 20's to get the air flow he needs. Hes better off with a good 20g or a turbo of similar size... its not like its an hx52 or some other t4 monster.

And I'm curious where you got these spool numbers on mitsu turbos and housings? Hx35's and 40's are hitting full boost in the mid 20's before 4k...

That's some good advice. You would very likely be more pleased with a smaller turbo for street use. With that hx35 there's going to be a fair amount of lag, by the time it spools up you'll have to start slowing down on the streets.

Not saying your plan isn't feasible , you just have to think of all aspects. You have to think "do I want this thing to rip when I hit the gas , or do I want to wait before I get slammed back in the seat."

The feeling of that big turbo is fun once you hit boost, but for a streetable car quicker spool time is , in my opinion, always a plus.

Say your driving down the highway , and need to accelerate quickly to get around a car in front of you, unless you drive around on the highway at 4500 RPMs, it's gonna be a few seconds until that power hits , and when it does you'll be accelerating so quickly you'll likely need to slow Down on the streets to keep the local authorities on your good side.

Remember you could always run a smaller turbo - with the supporting mods of a big turbo. If you feel like you just need something that'll throw you back a little harder , throw that hx35 on , make sure to re tune it, and have fun.
Not trying to tear down your plans just trying to help you enjoy your ride to its fullest potential.

Like Chris said , your fuel selection is a very important piece in how your car will run and behave depending on boost levels, turbo selection , and the tune.

When did I say a 20g would take until 4500 to spool?

UNLESS you drive around on the highway at 4500 RPMs, it's gonna be a few seconds until that power hits , and when it does you'll be accelerating so quickly you'll likely need to slow down on the street.

Your thinking of the point when the car is saying " okay, I'm starting to gain speed"

I'm thinking of the point when its putting you back in the seat.

WTF

Seriously man, are we arguing over something that depends on each and every setup. There is a variable to when the the turbo is goin to start building boost , to when it will hit full boost , every powerband is unique. So there really is no set answer to what you're trying to validate.


Even though my current dsm is n/t , i've had others .. that were turbo, a 97 tsi Awd , An Evo 8, and a BMW 335ix which is my girl's now but man that thing kicks ass
But I'll be honest I didn't build those cars , I bought it built ,I knew what was in them from research and digging in, but it wasn't really mine. The diamonds were both in the mid 400's, the 335ix is my favorite car honestly , it's mostly stock but it's our daily. I'm trying to get her into the dsm family but were also trying to relocate , I'm thinking north of Denver , but I haven't looked into the emissions there.
My 1g I'm doing the turbo swap myself, and I'm just about done with it.

Basically all I'm saying is every setup is different , so when the boost hits can't be determined by the turbo alone.

 

[CrackedDSM]

are we arguing..

Yes. This is DSMTuners after all. People will argue about what shade of red the banner is if you let them.

 

[Breezio69]

Codym, my apologies, I got this thread confused with the "don't know what to spend my money on " thread. That was my bad.... foot in mouth.

 

[1G Eclipse94928]

What the heck are you talking about? He isn't going t3. If he was then he would be good for an hy35 over a hx35 being that he would be using a 9 cm housing over a 12cm twin scroll housing. He is running an hx35 in a BEP housing which is no where near as laggy as a hy35. Since they don't make a bolt on housing for an hy35 this is just bad advice all the way around for him. He wants a "quick spooling steet car" that makes 400 or so whp.

Turbos in that range list anwhere from a td06sl2 20g, hx35 bep, hta71, fp green, blah blah. the list goes on but full t3 hx35, hx40 and hy35 are all closer to 500hp turbos with much more lag.

Didn't notice he said 9 cm housing, and I just love the hy35 it will be the biggest turbo I put on my street car.

Apparently sarcasm is a foreign language to some of you.

How sweet of you to indirectly say.

 

[Cdc1221]

Kelt and Chris, you've heard it before and I'll say it too. You both are knowledgeable and respected members here, so please stop bickering and making yourselves out to be immature in a public thread. You're both great guys, just need to learn to get along...

An hy35 is not a laggy turbo by any stretch of the imagination. While it is a slightly larger housing than the bep .55, the turbine wheel is smaller than the hx35. It spools quickly and leaves plenty of room to grow. The biggest downside is having to build a vband exhaust, rather than the full bolton option of the hx

 

[1G Eclipse94928]

Kelt and Chris, you've heard it before and I'll say it too. You both are knowledgeable and respected members here, so please stop bickering and making yourselves out to be immature in a public thread. You're both great guys, just need to learn to get along...

An hy35 is not a laggy turbo by any stretch of the imagination. While it is a slightly larger housing than the bep .55, the turbine wheel is smaller than the hx35. It spools quickly and leaves plenty of room to grow. The biggest downside is having to build a vband exhaust, rather than the full bolton option of the hx

This is up for debate!


But I agree I dont think the HY35 is super laggy that guy was just mad at something. Its a awesome street turbo imo.

 

[Seamus]

Solution: Build a car that makes peak torque at high rpm and learn to drive in the power band.

I'm fairly certain you would agree that Ferraris and Lamborghinis are both quick and fast? The new 458 and Murcielago both make peak torque at or after 6000rpm. I'm setup the same way, and it's a blast.

It's always been the concept with these super cars everyone fawns over. These cars are just driven differently.

What fuel will you be running? A lot depends on this.

Your logic is flawed. You are never going to paint a pretty picture for throwing a giant turbocharger on a car and using it at <50% of it capacity. Sorry.

That isn't their goal, it's an engineering reality when you are building a 4.5 liter v8 to spin 9k and make power up there. They make ever effort to make as much torque as low down as possible. And super car manufactures are slowly abandoning those types of engines. Ferrari's new laferrari has lots of low end torque via hybrid system and those halo cars always light the way for their v8 car. Ferrari is also currently expring turbos. The maclarens all make tons of torque down low with their turbocharged engines. Lborghini's next small car is going to have an Audi sourced turbo motor. Everyone is getting away from no low end torque because there are better solutions now adays. They can build invisible turbo and hybrid systems that are refined enough to enhance the engines powerband while keeping the characteristics they are famous for.

Why didn't the price is no concern unlimited engineering budget Veyron use an ultra high revving pneumatic valve train 16 cylinder wonder? The technology was there. It would have saved them a fortunes and lots of headaches figuring out a cooling package for the current configuration.


But op he is right on one thing, the type of fuel you are using is going to influence all this advice people are throwing you way.

I agree 100 percent. IMO his car is not a good representative of the fwd community.

Haha. Quote of the day. It's one fools vision. Someone who is narcisic, but at the same time so self conscience he has to post about how great his setup is in EVERY single post he makes. He has probably even convinced himself at this point that he has a great car.

Op I see a lot of info some of it bad being thrown around.
If you only want to run around 400hp I would buy fic 1050 or 1150 injectors wether you run gasoline or ethanol. They will give you plenty of room and will be easy to get better than stock drivability. For a pump just use a single 255lph since you are only running boost in the 20's and fuel pressure in the high 60's.

For a turbo, I have a bep 7 blade hx35. It's not a laggy turbo. It's not going to support a whole lot more than your goal in bolt on form, so I wouldn't worry a out extreme cylinder pressures and torque destroying your motor.

Before this turbo I have had every combination of 20g u have imagined and some that you haven't. A td05h 20g is a great turbo. Spools close to stock, and you can get 400hp out of it on ethanol. But it is still a blast with 23psi and pump has. You won't care that u missed your hp goal by some arbitrary number.

A td06h 20g will perform similar to the bolt on hx35 with boost in the mid 20's. but the holset starts to really outperform the old 20g wheel at higher boost levels.

I've had hks 272's and bc 272's. I like the bc 272's for a really quick spooling setup that will spin 7500-8000 rpm.

The other thing I want to ad is that I recently installed cam gears and had them setup by a guy who has been building and racing at a national level for 20 years. I also switched to dsmlink boost control. He completely transformed my car. My turbo spools like a 14b now and the torque is insane. So this is somthing to consider as well. It's the best thing I've done to my car. It seems that almost no dsm'ers are optimizing their cams. I can understand why, I had no idea where to start besides the concepts you read online. But finding a real expert who is used to extracting every last advantage out of a motor makes a world of difference.

 

[keltalon]

. But finding a real expert who is used to extracting every last advantage out of a motor makes a world of difference.

I am already here HELLO! OP look at my setup 5 years ago this is the quickest spooling highest hp setup you are going to get in a steet machince with mostly stock parts and what a true dsmer would dream of in terms of power in a sleeper. Pm me if you want to know exactly what my setup was at the time and I can get you in the right direction. I have since moved on and will hit 700whp with the cyclone intake in a few weeks. Is my car great? Yes I most certainly think so considering its a 650whp true daily driver and current cyclone intake record holder!................................over 500ft lbs of torque 4800rmp..............................all engineered by me.................................sorry for the pause but that sure sounded good and All lets take a moment of silence for the old cyclone record holder, May you rest in peace! ........................................... Ignore the ignorance above and as stated start looking at a few profiles and send pm's to those members who are in the range you want to be. check it out my old dynohttp://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/349759-welcome-me-500hp-club-bw-s259.html 5yrs ago I have never looked back. Some don't agree with my methods but they sure do yield results that is respected if you ever pull up beside the street beast and that's a fact! Locals all know the car and Atlanta Is big. the million dollar question here is "Does anybody know the guy who own that silver eclipse He got some fire under the hood" Why would they ask such a question? Well you figure it out!

 

[Seamus]

That dyno looks pretty good. Is that a high comp motor?

Going high compression, smart boost control and having a real expert do my cam timing transformed my car. It hits like a 14b or 16g.


I see you have bc 272's as well. I like that cam a lot. I don't know why people give it a bad rep. This forum is so backwards sometimes. I haven't had a lot of different cams, but I looked at a lot of dynoes before I bought this set and I didn't see anything that offered a better low/midrange.


Man you're proud of yourself aren't you?

 

[keltalon]

here is what the 650whp beast sounds like at idle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m85S0KlZeNs&list=UUIaRAeMHFnvYehgQmRhGRjw

 

[keltalon]

That dyno looks pretty good. Is that a high comp motor?

Going high compression, smart boost control and having a real expert do my cam timing transformed my car. It hits like a 14b or 16g.

Thanks. All my dynos are impressive what are you talking about? Just joking around but they are. No high compression engine ,at the time the compression was 8:5 to 1 ross pistons. I was running a ported 2g exhaust manifold with hks 264 cams , stock intake manifold and to top it off a .55 ar housing on the turbo hot side. Its all about balance in parts something that I am a big stickler on. Turbo, ar housing, cams, intake and exhaust manifold has to be balance and in the same power range to blow the dyno up. I am putting together my last street balancing act and I am pretty confident that it will be another ground breaking dyno for the forum unorthodox method but ground breaking to say the least and I must say I am very excited my objective is to lower the torque and raise the hp, considering all my parts have arrived at my house and ready to go on the car. Op I can help you if you let me I have been where you are now just pm me and it don't take a whole lot of money either!

 

[keltalon]

That dyno looks pretty good. Is that a high comp motor?

Going high compression, smart boost control and having a real expert do my cam timing transformed my car. It hits like a 14b or 16g.


I see you have bc 272's as well. I like that cam a lot. I don't know why people give it a bad rep. This forum is so backwards sometimes. I haven't had a lot of different cams, but I looked at a lot of dynoes before I bought this set and I didn't see anything that offered a better low/midrange.


Man you're proud of yourself aren't you?

How high is your compression just curious?

 

[Seamus]

I went 10.0 pistons on my new motor. It's a 1g. Stock intake, 272's, dnp manifold, bolt on hx35. I was going to switch turbos and go smaller, but spend big money on a real nice setup, but I'm happy now with the hx35.

I still want to switch turbos though over the summer. I really want to try one of the divided efr's. something rated around 45-50lb/min. That I can make similar power to what I have now but spool even faster.

 

[keltalon]

That dyno looks pretty good. Is that a high comp motor?




I see you have bc 272's as well. I like that cam a lot. I don't know why people give it a bad rep. This forum is so backwards sometimes. I haven't had a lot of different cams, but I looked at a lot of dynoes before I bought this set and I didn't see anything that offered a better low/midrange.


Man you're proud of yourself aren't you?

I have been preaching about the bc272 since I did the cam test and all I can say is If you want to build a car that performs on the street and can also do it at the track, and at the same time drive to work 20 miles a day and get good gas mileage then the bc272 are what you are looking for in your set up. Now if you what a dragster, only driven on the track every other weekend then you need some another cam. Yes I am proud of what I have accomplished but not in the sense I tend to look down on others. It those in my class, who don't agree with my methods, who have a problem with me. And if you are in my class you certainly have a group of people following you and will take your side in the event of conflict and this is what divide the forum. I have my following people and they have theirs. Differing in methods cause us and the following to fight in words. Only if we can respect the results of others is when we will unite

 

[keltalon]

I went 10.0 pistons on my new motor. It's a 1g. Stock intake, 272's, dnp manifold, bolt on hx35. I was going to switch turbos and go smaller, but spend big money on a real nice setup, but I'm happy now with the hx35.

I still want to switch turbos though over the summer. I really want to try one of the divided efr's. something rated around 45-50lb/min. That I can make similar power to what I have now but spool even faster.

That sounds reasonable!

 

[keltalon]

Op let us help you get to your goals

 

[Breezio69]

Keltalon... your 650hp car at idle sounds like a man talking about how pretty fresh paint looks?

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

The hubris in here has gotten thick enough to swim through.

Man you're proud of yourself aren't you?

Noticing a pattern?

So how about we get back to topic.. guy has a 7-bolt, possibly a 94/95 BY with all that entails. Seems wary of building the short block at the moment.

He has a street car and wants response, E85 is available.

Keeping it simple and affordable: Evo 3 or S16G (enjoyed my 14B and S16G setups), adjustable gears on stock cams, stock manifolds, V3 SD w/ Flex Fuel, FMIC and metal charge pipes, dumped O2 housing and a 3" turbo back exhaust.

You'll have a tough time beating that on spool and response. The ~38lb/min will shine on E85 and still haul on pump gas when that's not an option.

I doubt you'll even care if you wind up at 375whp vs 425whp as you'll probably be making damn near 400wtq when you let her eat, depending on how you choose to control boost and where your cam timing ends up

 

[keltalon]

Keltalon... your 650hp car at idle sounds like a man talking about how pretty fresh paint looks?

Dude thanks for my first hard laugh of the day that was hilarious

 

[boost97gst]

Kels: How this topic turn in to your car?? hahaha. I didnt read page 3, must've took a turn somewhere though

Im just givin ya shit, dont get offended or anything. I like ## car, just not a fan of the ffofh thread, thats all.

 

[keltalon]

Kels: How this topic turn in to your car?? hahaha. I didnt read page 3, must've took a turn somewhere though

Im just givin ya shit, dont get offended or anything. I like ## car, just not a fan of the ffofh thread, thats all.

Lol. Just trying to help op with references that's all.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Based on what you've described with relatively little investment, you could have a blast with a well prepped Evo 3 16G car on E85.

I've never pretended to be a "representative of the FWD" community, [redacted]. None of what I do is for show or recognition, you could take a lesson from that perhaps. It's why I don't have a build blog or make threads about the arbitrary things I've done to seek validation from others.

Your logic is flawed. You are never going to paint a pretty picture for throwing a giant turbocharger on a car and using it at <50% of it capacity. Sorry.

Reading is hard I know, see above. Post #53 in this thread.

Haha. Quote of the day. It's one fools vision. Someone who is narcisic, but at the same time so self conscience he has to post about how great his setup is in EVERY single post he makes. He has probably even convinced himself at this point that he has a great car.

1.) I didn't bring up my car until the conversation turned to terminal velocity and it was basically a footnote to relate to.
2.) I'm self-conscious? Narcissistic? You may want to review your buddies contributions quoted below. You appear to be confused.
3.) My car is what it is- a work in progress. I have some brief dyno time on this setup, but not enough to be conclusive. If you can find any self promotion on the level you'll find below anywhere in my post history please share.


The other thing I want to ad is that I recently installed cam gears and had them setup by a guy who has been building and racing at a national level for 20 years. I also switched to dsmlink boost control. He completely transformed my car. My turbo spools like a 14b now and the torque is insane.

Already brought these up too...

Right, I'm the narcissistic one in this dialog:

I am already here HELLO! OP look at my setup 5 years ago this is the quickest spooling highest hp setup you are going to get in a steet machince with mostly stock parts and what a true dsmer would dream of in terms of power in a sleeper. Pm me if you want to know exactly what my setup was at the time and I can get you in the right direction. I have since moved on and will hit 700whp with the cyclone intake in a few weeks. Is my car great? Yes I most certainly think so considering its a 650whp true daily driver and current cyclone intake record holder!................................over 500ft lbs of torque 4800rmp..............................all engineered by me.................................sorry for the pause but that sure sounded good and All lets take a moment of silence for the old cyclone record holder, May you rest in peace! ........................................... Ignore the ignorance above and as stated start looking at a few profiles and send pm's to those members who are in the range you want to be. check it out my old dynohttp://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/349759-welcome-me-500hp-club-bw-s259.html 5yrs ago I have never looked back. Some don't agree with my methods but they sure do yield results that is respected if you ever pull up beside the street beast and that's a fact! Locals all know the car and Atlanta Is big. the million dollar question here is "Does anybody know the guy who own that silver eclipse He got some fire under the hood" Why would they ask such a question? Well you figure it out!

here is what the 650whp beast sounds like at idle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m85S0KlZeNs&list=UUIaRAeMHFnvYehgQmRhGRjw

Thanks. All my dynos are impressive what are you talking about? Just joking around but they are. No high compression engine ,at the time the compression was 8:5 to 1 ross pistons. I was running a ported 2g exhaust manifold with hks 264 cams , stock intake manifold and to top it off a .55 ar housing on the turbo hot side. Its all about balance in parts something that I am a big stickler on. Turbo, ar housing, cams, intake and exhaust manifold has to be balance and in the same power range to blow the dyno up. I am putting together my last street balancing act and I am pretty confident that it will be another ground breaking dyno for the forum unorthodox method but ground breaking to say the least and I must say I am very excited my objective is to lower the torque and raise the hp, considering all my parts have arrived at my house and ready to go on the car. Op I can help you if you let me I have been where you are now just pm me and it don't take a whole lot of money either!

I have been preaching about the bc272 since I did the cam test and all I can say is If you want to build a car that performs on the street and can also do it at the track, and at the same time drive to work 20 miles a day and get good gas mileage then the bc272 are what you are looking for in your set up. Now if you what a dragster, only driven on the track every other weekend then you need some another cam. Yes I am proud of what I have accomplished but not in the sense I tend to look down on others. It those in my class, who don't agree with my methods, who have a problem with me. And if you are in my class you certainly have a group of people following you and will take your side in the event of conflict and this is what divide the forum. I have my following people and they have theirs. Differing in methods cause us and the following to fight in words. Only if we can respect the results of others is when we will unite

Yup. Just the pinnacle of modesty.

Sooo, again.. Let's stick to content. I find what few detractors I have tend to have an issue with this part.

This isn't a "both sides are bad" situation. One of us is a self-aggrandizing pot-stirrer, and projects this on the other. Then it goes in circles.