Torque Plate? [Merged 11-6]

[Strm Trpr]

No man, I'm not saying that.....
Here man, read this.... <a href = http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=71009&postcount=6>You know what to do</a>

 

[half-cocked]

Good stuff, but NOSLaser is talking about a 2G 7 bolt right? Can the same be held true for a 6 bolt? Taking in consideration of the atomic compostion of the block he was talking about?

 

[Strm Trpr]

Yeah, I think you're right, but building an engine like the method he described gives a user peace of mind....
On Green Performance builds their 6-bolts exactly like the way NosLaser mentioned...
Read this..... <a href = http://www.ongreenperformance.com/FrameSets/2G%20Performance.htm> Just Click It</a>

Edit, that link sucked.... go there and click on motors....
Then read how they build theirs....

Peace

 

[92redman]

^^^^ Dude, why waste your breath....
These fools want to rebel, let them.... and when their 400+hp motor crankwalks from the block being over torqued, then fook em.... when they post up with issue's....

I guarantee you that this clown bolts his head down with ARP's and then he's ready to put her in, have him check the crankshaft endplay, and I'll bet he'll be close to the Mitsu spec of .0071" and .009" service limit......
Sorry for flaming these guys, but skimping on engine builds is simply retarded.....
Do a search on Torque Plates, and you can see why other guys aren't wasting their time post answers to these stupid questions....

Unsubscribed......

We are the ones retarted? This thread is about boring cylinders and you are talking about crankwalk! Nobody on here said anything about using a torque plate to align hone the mains. I don't see how honing the cylinders could cause the thrust surface on your mains to magically shift...And how in the world did you start talking about overtorquing ARP's??

You used a link that has nothing to do with what we are discussing. The only thing that link has in common with what we are discussing is the fact that they mentioned "torque plate".

Again, this thread was about using a torque plate to hone/bore cylinders; not align hone mains, installing any bolts, dowels, or anything to do do with the crankshaft, and wasn't about the cause of crankwalk.

To get back on topic:
Does anybody know if the torque plates they have out their for DSM's have been researched in order to provide the exact stress that the head provides, or are they just completely flat plates of aluminum or steel with holes?
The reason I am asking is because I was considering making one but my machine shop instructor says they are not completely flat, they change thicknesses and angles to match the head perfectly.

 

[half-cocked]

Click the first link he posted, that will explain.

 

[Strm Trpr]

We are the ones retarted? This thread is about boring cylinders and you are talking about crankwalk! Nobody on here said anything about using a torque plate to align hone the mains. I don't see how honing the cylinders could cause the thrust surface on your mains to magically shift...And how in the world did you start talking about overtorquing ARP's??

You used a link that has nothing to do with what we are discussing. The only thing that link has in common with what we are discussing is the fact that they mentioned "torque plate".

Again, this thread was about using a torque plate to hone/bore cylinders; not align hone mains, installing any bolts, dowels, or anything to do do with the crankshaft, and wasn't about the cause of crankwalk.

To get back on topic:
Does anybody know if the torque plates they have out their for DSM's have been researched in order to provide the exact stress that the head provides, or are they just completely flat plates of aluminum or steel with holes?
The reason I am asking is because I was considering making one but my machine shop instructor says they are not completely flat, they change thicknesses and angles to match the head perfectly.

Come on man, I'm not calling anyone retarded, just not using a torque plate when boring the cylinders and align honing the mains in retarded....
The bores and the crank need to be perpendicular to one another when the head is torqued on.
Torque plates induce the stresses the block will see when the head is torqued on, i.e., the block flexes and twists....
Now you tell me boring the cylinders with a torque on and align honing is not a necessary, well then you may be right....
Some engine builders use torque plates and mock bellhousing bolted to the block when boring and align honing....
It just seems mechanically correct to me.

Mitsu's torque specs for the head are pretty lame.
They say something to the effect of torqueing them to say 75 ft*lbs, then loosening them completely, then turn the screw or torque them 90*, then another 90*.... there's really no number to shoot for.
ARP's I would imagine have a torque spec that should be met, or I may be wrong, or when people use ARP's they also torque them to the same specs that Mitsu spec's out.

Sorry, if I offened you, that wasn'tmy intention.....

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

I'm going to the dyno at noon tomorrow. By block was put togather, bored, hone, line bored, etc with no torque plate. I'll let you know how it turns out, and I don't plan on making 400whp (or 500whp...)

 

[baby huie]

did u take specs on the difference in walls. also did u take measurement on crank play i dont think it will be that bad. hits us up with some detils.

 

[Defiant]

C'mon people. It ain't a goddamned battlefield. Of course torque plates are better, and cutting a heated block all buttoned-up is probably the best of all. But engines have been getting re-bored and rebuilt for a lot longer than hot-rodders thought to use plates.

One of the other competent fellows pointed out it should be bored with a crank in place, as well. I don't know how far you need to go before the returns start to diminish.

However, if you've ever seen footage of factory motors being cranked-out, they aren't plated then. They're gang bored, drilled, tapped and honed on one big machine, at an ungodly rate of engines per minute.

 

[Scrymerr]

I usually just eyeball it.

 

[trbotaln]

The only time you would really need a torque plate when honing is when the cylinder head bolts are close to the cylinder walls. If the cylinder head bolts are close to the cylinders then you could expect around .001 difference with the torqueplate bolted on. If you just have your cylinders honed .0005 over the bore then you wont have to worry about anything and the worst thing that will happen is it will just knock a little bit when you start it up and the motor is cold,

 

[anconover]

For those who dont use a torque plate, your taking a chance no matter what you say. Every builder i know, who is well known for excellent work uses a torque plate, and will tell you to. Why would you not, if it costs a little to have 1 made, theyre is a guy that actually sells torque plates for 100$. The boring/honing process is not something id want to cheap out on when building a motor. Itll be argued both ways. But just use a torque plate. Call buschur, BJ's, FFWD, Pruven, EM etc, ask them if you should use a torque plate.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

I didn't use a torque plate. It puffed a cloud on first startup, hasn't leaked a drop since. Leakdown is 3-5% in all 4 cyls at 600 miles. At 300 miles, compression blew 210 across.

You can see my setup in my profile.

 

[boostedinaz]

I look at it this way. Just becasue people have not used one and never had a problem doesnt mean its the right way to do it. It doesnt cost that much more to make one or buy one so why not use that as added security. Why spend all this money on a new motor and leave something like this to chance.

 

[blueman803]

I made a post asking this question earlier. Everyone says you should use one, and if you dont you are taking a chance. I have heard people say to always use them, and some say it doesnt matter. My question, where are all the people who did it without and ruined their motor? I havent seen anyone say I did it without and my motor blows.

 

[Tevenor]

Should you wear a condom when banging a hooker? Yes. Do you have to? No. There are plenty of guys who bang hookers regularly without using one and never get an STD. But there are also those that don't use one, get screwed, and have their peter fall off. They tend to keep to themselves remarkably enough. Same thing goes for torque plates.

Now you decide wether or not you want to use a Torque Plate.

 

[Ludachris]

Should you wear a condom when banging a hooker? Yes. Do you have to? No. There are plenty of guys who bang hookers regularly without using one and never get an STD. But there are also those that don't use one, get screwed, and have their peter fall off. They tend to keep to themselves remarkably enough. Same thing goes for torque plates.

Now you decide wether or not you want to use a Torque Plate.

Nice analogy Sean - I used a similar one in a BOV venting discussion... it seems to be very versatile.

 

[audiodude123]

And if you really want stright cylinder bores, after you bolt up that torque plate, heat the block to 225degrees farenheight then bore and hone.

Hot boring/honing is performed by all commercial race teams. But they cryo the block before a hot bore/hone.

 

[Suparata]

I didn't use a torque plate. It puffed a cloud on first startup, hasn't leaked a drop since. Leakdown is 3-5% in all 4 cyls at 600 miles. At 300 miles, compression blew 210 across.

How about less than 2% leak down and equal compression after 12000 miles on an engine that cranks out close to 500HP?

Everyone says you should use one, and if you dont you are taking a chance. I have heard people say to always use them, and some say it doesnt matter. My question, where are all the people who did it without and ruined their motor? I havent seen anyone say I did it without and my motor blows.

Not using a torque plate will result in bores that are out of round from the get-go. Some bores more than others but not to the point of having an engine failure because of that (at least not right away). But enough to make you wonder why you went to the next available size on those bores if all that work did not result in perfectly round and on-size bores. Bottom line, if you want the best performance over the longest time possible out of your engine, you make sure that you do everything possible to have those new bores round and the correct size and that means using a torque plate and hone the engine to the finish size over a longer period than one day.
So if you want to know where all those guys that did it without a torque plate are, don’t look for them on the lists with the guys who have engines that are strong, reliable and fast at the same time.

 

[Defiant]

This ought to screw things up: does it matter if it's a plate, or would you get the same payoff from using a ring that'd just "distort" each cylinder as you're boring it?

I dunno. We aren't (despite how much we like to think it) putting together engines for John Force or Michael Schmacher. I don't recall hearing of a torque plate until sometime into the late seventies.

Still, I'd use one if I could.

 

[half-cocked]

This ought to screw things up: does it matter if it's a plate, or would you get the same payoff from using a ring that'd just "distort" each cylinder as you're boring it?

I dunno. We aren't (despite how much we like to think it) putting together engines for John Force or Michael Schmacher. I don't recall hearing of a torque plate until sometime into the late seventies.

Still, I'd use one if I could.

Yeah Defiant has got it pretty good here, people have been making power without torque plates for years, and they dont use a torque plate at the factory when they are banging these blocks out and people make power on stock bottom ends all the time.

 

[Suparata]

You just got what you would like to hear form Defiant's post. But do you really get it? Factory "allowable" tolerance is .0006" out of round which is just not acceptable in my book and believe me that some bores honed without a torque plate get distorted more than that.

Defiant
Good torque plates cost more than $350 and believe me that they are not a "good investment" from a financial stand point but it helps getting those bores to a "as installed" state and therefore have the job done right.
Common sense is telling that forces applied are not the same using 4 individual "rings" instead of a plate and the change in shape might not be the desired one. The goal is to simulate the head bolted down and applying a pressure across the deck just like a head would do . But I wouldn't know for sure until trying it on a few blocks because I'm not an engineer. It's just that if I already know that the plate influences the shape of the bores exactly like the head does when installed why mess with it?
Heated blocks sounds like a good idea but piston's manufacturers give you the clearance needed at 70 degrees so it's kinda difficult to say what should be the right size without a lot of testing, you know the old trial and error thing.

 

[half-cocked]

I never said they were a bad idea, if I coud have gotten one I would have used one. But the fact still remains that power has been made without using a torqueplate. I am not mocking you when i ask have you ever measured the bores with and without a head to see actual distortion, because I would really like to know. But race engine builders also reccomend front case plates and bell housing plates while the block has 190* water ran through it ('hot honing' process). I would be curious if anyone has tried that and if those really make a difference, knowing that if any probably only Brent Rau, John Shepard, Sean Glazer or Marco Passante have done it.

 

[Froyd79]

Not sure if you are interested but taboospeedshop.com has one on his website for rent.

 

[half-cocked]

OK, I don't want to start a forum war about torqueplates, because lord knows its a topic that has been hashed out way to much but I must know a few things. A TP is used to simulate a head being torqued to a block, now the distortion comes from the head bolts/studs being near the cylinders and thus creating some distortion local to each bolt/stud right? So the distortion is roughly the size of the portion of the bolt/stud that is in the block right? Unfortunatly this is right where the power is made. And here is an interesting article: http://www.oilstick.com/chute/joe/paper1.html this guy states torqueplates should be fastened 10 - 12 hours before boring/honing or you can still be OOR.